Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

dougieruggie

I haven't seen one article that has criticised Declan Kidney in all his tenure. Are our journalists really that gutless? Or do they genuinely think that Kidney has done an excellent job these last 2 years?

Our main rugby pundit, Gerry Thornley seems completely unable to criticise anything about the Irish management. Reading Thornley's articles you'd swear that Ireland are winning games for fun.

It just seems the hard questions are never asked. Brief paragraphs are given to Touhy not being selected. I find it hard to believe that every journalist thinks bringing on ROG and moving Sexton to 12 is a good idea. Reddan is clearly the better option to Murray yet no journalist questions it. Similarly no journalist questions why Reddan-Sexton arent paired yet they justify DOC-POC on the basis that you dont break up the partnership

Are Irish rugby journalists afraid that if they stray from the party line that they'll find themselves cut off from the squad and confrences?

Or do they really believe that Kidney is doing a great job and his selections are spot on?

Tox56

Thornley doesn't want to risk damaging the relationship with his contacts within the squad. Namely, Kidney.

jimbomalley

Mcgurk alluded to the selection of DOC over Ryan afterwards, think that's the closest thing to criticism I've heard from the media. Hook bashes kidney but then again hook bashes everyone, the man is an idiot as a rugby pundit. It's all very cozy between the Irish media and deco, they need their player interviews after all

Clegg

A while ago I was watching a Munster game on TV and Hook was one of the pundits. I was pleasantly surprised when he gave a clear, concise and accurate summary of Munster tactics and how they could improve them. Hook is a rugby man and knows the game well. I think he shows his true knowledge only when League matches are being broadcasted. Thats when the more serious fan tunes in

Stick him in front of a national audience however and all his knowledge goes out the window. He wants to be the Eamon Dunphy of Rugby punditry but he misses the mark by miles. He goes for the controversial statements but instead goes on the most ridiculous, moronic rants about players and coaching. And there are plenty of people that actually buy into his crap.

Its a very small circle of people alright. As a Connacht Supporter when Bradley was in charge I read countless articles by a number of journalists saying what a great job Michael Bradley was doing at Connacht.

If you only watched a couple of Connacht matches like interpros and took your views otherwise from the likes of Hugh Farrelly and so forth you could believe Bradley was doing a great job altogether.

However the reality most of the time was completely different. The likes of the independent and times have a large amount of space dedicated to rugby and can't risk isolating themselves by getting on the wrong side of these people. Sad but true.

Clegg

Hugh Farrelly regularly has me scratching my head.

Reading his stuff makes you wonder if he even knows what he's talking about.

flyswatter

And hence, less pressure is placed on Kidney to be sacked than it should be.

In France the media would savage them.

skregs

This forum is too soft on him. The man is an embarrassment, yet people rush to defend him on the basis of his performances 5/6 years ago.

Seph503

skregs wrote: »

This forum is too soft on him. The man is an embarrassment, yet people rush to defend him on the basis of his performances 5/6 years ago.

Are you reading the same forum?? I can think of two, maybe 3 posters who are Kidney supporters and that's about it

irishbucsfan

Seph503 wrote: »

Are you reading the same forum?? I can think of two, maybe 3 posters who are Kidney supporters and that's about it

There was more support for Eddie on here than there is for Declan IIRC. Still really doubt Kidney is going anywhere.

And he'll be excused 3 losses in NZ. And then we'll beat someone at home in the AIs and he'll be excused then. And then we'll go into the 2013 6Ns in the exact same position.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There was more support for Eddie on here than there is for Declan IIRC. Still really doubt Kidney is going anywhere.

And he'll be excused 3 losses in NZ. And then we'll beat someone at home in the AIs and he'll be excused then. And then we'll go into the 2013 6Ns in the exact same position.

You can see that he's already got his excuse warmed up and ready to fire at the first sign of attack. His comment about the lack of TH backup is going to be the main pillar of his defense and designed to put the IRFU on the back foot.

Despite the fact that he's had possible replacements in other areas of the pitch left ignored for years and that Ross himself was a forced decision with the upcoming retirement of Hayes, who spent a year too long in green.

danthefan

I will summarise Thornley's article from tomorrow for you all now:

"Two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref etc etc etc..."

rrpc

danthefan wrote: »

I will summarise Thornley's article from tomorrow for you all now:

"Two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref etc etc etc..."

I think I recall a point late in the match when even Nigel Owens took pity on us and failed to penalise the scrum even though it had marched backwards for half a mile and actually waited for the ball to come out.

Podge_irl

danthefan wrote: »

I will summarise Thornley's article from tomorrow for you all now:

"Two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref etc etc etc..."

Thornley's moaning about the ref is seriously starting to grate. He's like a bloody child.

razorblunt

In all honesty,yes they are far too lenient. It's plain for everyone to see that DOC and D'Arcy should not have been near that squad.TOL ahead of Boss and Marshall also, you can go on and on. Heaslip coasting on previous form.

I long for the day when we get a coach that is unbiased to players and provinces and picks on form and merit, wishful thinking though.
Saying that though the players were pathetic yesterday with a few exceptions and should take the blame also.

Hercule Poirot

We need to do what lancaster did for england, a lot of articles in the english media are praising him for "cutting out the dead wood", we need to follow suit, too many players coasting on past performances

GerM

I don't understand the Heaslip hate. He's not playing particularly well but he wasn't the worst player by a stretch yesterday. Top line out player in brutal conditions, made a few yards when he carried, made all his tackles and played behind a horrendous scrum. It seems to be very much in fashion to bash him and people are waiting to jump on any mistake. I could name half a dozen players more deserving of criticism yesterday.

D'Arcy's performance yesterday highlighted that his day is done, something we've all suspected for a long time now. The fact that we so badly need a 12 now makes the ROG/Sexton axis all the more bewildering.

Anyway, no set piece, no hope. Fundamental of the game and it was underlined yesterday. DK needs to take responsibility. Yesterday's situation was always waiting in the wings and his reluctance to address it came back to haunt him. Several players need to be culled. I can't see any of the notable journalists calling for it though. A minor acknowledgement or two and they'll focus on the return of POC and BOD for NZ.

rrpc

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

We need to do what lancaster did for england, a lot of articles in the english media are praising him for "cutting out the dead wood", we need to follow suit, too many players coasting on past performances

Game. Plan.

Blaming players is invidious, yes there were some poor performances, but until you can separate caoching from performances it's poor form to single out individual players.

Take the French game as a case in point. We were 11 points up at half time and came out to defend the lead in the second half. Such a pathetic, negative approach to a game that was there for the taking is both insulting to the fans and the players alike. We got the draw we deserved but could just as easily have lost it.

We were being killed in the scrum and the answer was to put on a poor performing SH and play our 10 at 12, adding another 10 to the mix. Why?

We've shufled our backs like a deck of cards all 6N, bringing on subs in unfamiliar positions and expecting it to work. Completely clueless.

irishbucsfan

Again look back at the AIs in 2010...

At the time Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan were both starting for their provinces. Neither were in the Irish squad at all. At the time the Ireland scrum was a shambles.

We all knew John Hayes was nearly done. We all knew Tony Buckley wasn't nearly capable of playing at international level. But they were the two Tightheads in the squad. And in a game against Samoa when we should have been testing out youth and looking at our options we started John Hayes at tighthead.

Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.

GerM

We should be thankful it's the end of the 6N. If we had another game and Ross is injured we'd be looking at Buckley being parachuted back in for another cap. The only other option would appear to be Archer given he was given the nod for the Wolfhounds. Scary stuff.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.

We've played brinkmanship with selections for a long time now, only making changes and bringing in new players when forced.

The time to bring in young players is when you don't need them. Sub them on and give them time with the experienced players in small increments so that when you do have to call on them, they're up to speed and ready to slot in.

The only young players who've been brought in are Conor Murray, who's been dropped in at the deep end with an unfamiliar half back partner., Sean Cronin and Peter O'Mahony who've looked good so far and McFadden who's just been thrown on willy-nilly in short cameos. Worse still he's had to look on from the bench as Sexton's been moved into the slot he should be in to accommodate O'Gara.

In the case of Cronin and O'Mahony, they've been brought in because of lack of cover through injuries to Wallace and Flannery and McFadden ostensibly to replace D'Arcy, but he's not doing that.

tolosenc

GerM wrote: »

We should be thankful it's the end of the 6N. If we had another game and Ross is injured we'd be looking at Buckley being parachuted back in for another cap. The only other option would appear to be Archer given he was given the nod for the Wolfhounds. Scary stuff.

Given the nod for the Wolfhounds, and marched backwards in even more dramatic fashion than Court by the Saxons. If that game was a fair representation of Archer's ability, give me Buckley any day. And I do not say that lightly.

rrpc

tolosenc wrote: »

Given the nod for the Wolfhounds, and marched backwards in even more dramatic fashion than Court by the Saxons. If that game was a fair representation of Archer's ability, give me Buckley any day. And I do not say that lightly.

I don't disagree with you, but we're not doing anything to develop props. I very seldom agree with George Hook, but he's right in saying that we should have a dedicated props academy and pull lads in from an early age and develop them to the point where they can join the provincial teams. With the exception of Leinster and to a lesser extent Connacht, the provinces are just taking a short term view and bringing in imports to balance the deficit.

Hagz

I think we are doing an incredible amount to produce props, it will just take a year or two to show.

dougieruggie

Archer is a dreadful scrummager. I've seen him minced in the scrums by Jack McGrath when he came on for Munster A about 2-3 years ago. The ref had to go to non contested scrums because he was genuinely worried for Archer's safety.

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Again look back at the AIs in 2010...

At the time Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan were both starting for their provinces. Neither were in the Irish squad at all. At the time the Ireland scrum was a shambles.

We all knew John Hayes was nearly done. We all knew Tony Buckley wasn't nearly capable of playing at international level. But they were the two Tightheads in the squad. And in a game against Samoa when we should have been testing out youth and looking at our options we started John Hayes at tighthead.

Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.

The bolded part is just not true. At the time of the '10 AI's Buckley had come of the much fabled heroics against New Zealand and had started the season well for Munster. He had a decent set of internationals. We know now that it was time wasted, but as I'm repeatedly said on here; he looked like he was starting to come good.

That does not excuse Hayes' start against Samoa, but posters are using Buckley's implosion in 2011 to deride his selection in 2010.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The bolded part is just not true. At the time of the '10 AI's Buckley had come of the much fabled heroics against New Zealand and had started the season well for Munster. He had a decent set of internationals. We know now that it was time wasted, but as I'm repeatedly said on here; he looked like he was starting to come good.

That does not excuse Hayes' start against Samoa, but posters are using Buckley's implosion in 2011 to deride his selection in 2010.

That's not true. Buckley was clearly not good enough. Nobody was convinced by that one-off performance. Reread the threads. I mean you said:

Ill agree that Ross deserves a chance, but he only ever be 2nd choice behind Buckley and possibly Court too.

Most people were slightly more optimistic about his chances. We had a whole thread in November 2010 entitled "Why dont the Irish Management Team Rate the scrum and Mike Ross..."

We also had Sean O'Brien being kept out of the squad by an unfit and out of form Denis Leamy, another crazy selection.

Unfortunately form players being overlooked is a bit of a regular occurrence in Irish rugby and I have no reason to believe that will stop happening any time soon.

irishbucsfan

dougieruggie wrote: »

Archer is a dreadful scrummager. I've seen him minced in the scrums by Jack McGrath when he came on for Munster A about 2-3 years ago. The ref had to go to non contested scrums because he was genuinely worried for Archer's safety.

2-3 years ago he was 20 years old... So hardly fair to judge him based on that.

I haven't seen a huge amount from him but I wouldn't write him off yet. I would put Macklin and Hagan ahead of him as prospects but I hope he continues to improve. He was very poor for the Wolfhounds but at least he has looked good for Munster the odd time.

dougieruggie

Lets not forget that Healy didn't get his chance until Horan got injured.

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

2-3 years ago he was 20 years old... So hardly fair to judge him based on that.

I haven't seen a huge amount from him but I wouldn't write him off yet. I would put Macklin and Hagan ahead of him as prospects but I hope he continues to improve. He was very poor for the Wolfhounds but at least he has looked good for Munster the odd time.

I don't think anyone is too confident with Archer's scrummaging ability, but what I will say is that he has improved immeasurably. It was less than a year ago that he somehow managed to scrummage outside the opposition LH in one scrum like. He is now starting to be able to hold his own in the scrum and hopefully he'll continue his improvement.

desertcircus

At this stage I'm not sure how much blame can be placed on Kidney rather than the IRFU themselves. The decisions which have been made regarding the national team have been genuinely mystifying for quite a while now.

Just as an illustration of what we could have done: Ireland and England both went to the World Cup and were knocked out at quarter-final level. England came home, threw a collective knicker-fit, and sacked more or less the entire management team, before handing the keys to an interim coach who dropped half the first fifteen and gave the captaincy to a man with one cap behind him. Ireland came home, changed outhalves, and finished in their second worst position since the addition of Italy to the tournament, being beaten heavily by that same England team.

The English had been beaten off the park in last year's fixture. Their players had all taken beatings at the hands of Irish provinces. Yet they savaged us. And it wasn't even a particularly big shock to see it happening; disappointment and failure come naturally to the national team in a way that they don't to the provincial sides. Something is rotten in the way the national team is run, and until we find it and fix it, we're going to be stuck with the same cycle of being happy with the odd Triple Crown and the same sense of grim resignation when players with Heineken Cup medals around their necks get beaten by players who are lucky to make the knockouts of their domestic leagues.

leftleg

desertcircus wrote: »

At this stage I'm not sure how much blame can be placed on Kidney rather than the IRFU themselves. The decisions which have been made regarding the national team have been genuinely mystifying for quite a while now.

Just as an illustration of what we could have done: Ireland and England both went to the World Cup and were knocked out at quarter-final level. England came home, threw a collective knicker-fit, and sacked more or less the entire management team, before handing the keys to an interim coach who dropped half the first fifteen and gave the captaincy to a man with one cap behind him. Ireland came home, changed outhalves, and finished in their second worst position since the addition of Italy to the tournament, being beaten heavily by that same England team.

The English had been beaten off the park in last year's fixture. Their players had all taken beatings at the hands of Irish provinces. Yet they savaged us. And it wasn't even a particularly big shock to see it happening; disappointment and failure come naturally to the national team in a way that they don't to the provincial sides. Something is rotten in the way the national team is run, and until we find it and fix it, we're going to be stuck with the same cycle of being happy with the odd Triple Crown and the same sense of grim resignation when players with Heineken Cup medals around their necks get beaten by players who are lucky to make the knockouts of their domestic leagues.

Its called the moral grand slam; coming back from Paris twice unbeaten this year; sure we stopped France from winning the grand slam; job done; everything is sweet

Sindri

leftleg wrote: »

Its called the moral grand slam; coming back from Paris twice unbeaten this year; sure we stopped France from winning the grand slam; job done; everything is sweet

I don't think any one has that attitude, least of all the players.

leftleg

Sindri wrote: »

I don't think any one has that attitude, least of all the players.

I wasnt having a go at the players; some posters on think that the players just arent good enough; my point here is that I think the players are good enough; people shouldnt be happy with beating Scotland and Italy every year and losing to England, Wales and France. As a team Ireland are better than the moral grand slam.

jacothelad

rrpc wrote: »

I don't disagree with you, but we're not doing anything to develop props. I very seldom agree with George Hook, but he's right in saying that we should have a dedicated props academy and pull lads in from an early age and develop them to the point where they can join the provincial teams. With the exception of Leinster and to a lesser extent Connacht, the provinces are just taking a short term view and bringing in imports to balance the deficit.

In what way are Leinster an exception? Van Der Merwe, White, Le Roux, Van der Linde, Stan etc hardly Irish. I'd put my money on White playing for Ireland eventually. Ulster have Afoa but all the rest are Irish. At tight head we have Macklin who may measure up, Fitzpatrick who has been around for a while and isn't really terribly bad. There is Gerry Cronin who is also a tight head. We had Alan Whitten (Ian's brother) but unfortunately he developed leukaemia though the news is good afaik.


If the players on the pitch yesterday were competing in a Heineken Cup game I'd put my money on the Irish side every time................ provided Darcy was 'rested', O'Leary wouldn't be in the side, ROG wouldn't get on any more unless Sexton broke both legs and an arm and Court wouldn't be at tight head.

dougieruggie

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

Thornely's article, not even remotely critical of Kidney.

dougieruggie

dougieruggie wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

Thornely's article, not even remotely critical of Kidney.

puke - already marking the summer tour games as "must wins".

The circumstances would appear to narrow Kidney’s scope for making further change, though then again Saturday’s defeat arguably makes that more of a viable consideration.

irishbucsfan

What is Thornley on about, "further change"? Kidney didn't make one unforced change during the entire competition...

lologram

dougieruggie wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

Thornely's article, not even remotely critical of Kidney.

It's nice that he provided evidence while the thread was still young. Thanks Gerry!

rrpc

jacothelad wrote: »

In what way are Leinster an exception? Van Der Merwe, White, Le Roux, Van der Linde, Stan etc hardly Irish. I'd put my money on White playing for Ireland eventually. Ulster have Afoa but all the rest are Irish. At tight head we have Macklin who may measure up, Fitzpatrick who has been around for a while and isn't really terribly bad. There is Gerry Cronin who is also a tight head. We had Alan Whitten (Ian's brother) but unfortunately he developed leukaemia though the news is good afaik.

You're utilising your time machine quite a bit there to name Leinster front rows. Currently Leinster have Healy and Ross as starters with either Cronin or Strauss (shortly to become IQ) as hooker with Jack McGrath and Jamie Hagan as backups. Nathan White is going to Connacht, leaving Van der Merwe as the only NIQ prop on board.

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

You're utilising your time machine quite a bit there to name Leinster front rows. Currently Leinster have Healy and Ross as starters with either Cronin or Strauss (shortly to become IQ) as hooker with Jack McGrath and Jamie Hagan as backups. Nathan White is going to Connacht, leaving Van der Merwe as the only NIQ prop on board.

his point was pretty spot on though. It's not as if Leinster are a "shining beacon" of propping development.

They've gotten Hagan and Ross "brought in" - (irrelevant that Hagan started at Leinster, as like it or not, the development at Connacht will have been his most important).

Healy and McGrath are Leinster's only Irish "in house" developed props that have been capped at HEC level since Corrigan's days.

The tide is turning and I hope to see O'Connell and Furlong making strides, but it's dressing the situation up to say that Leinster have contributed well to propping development in this country.

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

his point was pretty spot on though. It's not as if Leinster are a "shining beacon" of propping development.

They've gotten Hagan and Ross "brought in" - (irrelevant that Hagan started at Leinster, as like it or not, the development at Connacht will have been his most important).

Healy and McGrath are Leinster's only Irish "in house" developed props that have been capped at HEC level since Corrigan's days.

The tide is turning and I hope to see O'Connell and Furlong making strides, but it's dressing the situation up to say that Leinster have contributed well to propping development in this country.

Sending players to Connacht is a good way to give them big match experience rather than allow them stagnate on the bench and leave the country out of frustration.

I'm not holding Leinster (or Ulster) up as paragons of virtue, just that right now that's where our props are likely to come from in the short to medium term. If that trend were to continue throughout the other provinces, we'd be in a much better position.

VivGrise

What I don't understand is why didn't Kidney tell Court or Healy to go down injured at scrum time, and then get them off with a "Neck injury". Uncontested scrums for the rest of the day. Ok, some people might frown upon this kind of play, but at the end of the day it's about the win. No one remembers who finished second or third in the six nations, and it's time that Kidney became ruthless. Its a golden age of sorts in Irish Rugby and we need to start racking up the silverware while we can.

thomond2006

VivGrise wrote: »

What I don't understand is why didn't Kidney tell Court or Healy to go down injured at scrum time, and then get them off with a "Neck injury". Uncontested scrums for the rest of the day. Ok, some people might frown upon this kind of play, but at the end of the day it's about the win. No one remembers who finished second or third in the six nations, and it's time that Kidney became ruthless. Its a golden age of sorts in Irish Rugby and we need to start racking up the silverware while we can.

If we had to resort to that then I would not support Ireland.

molloyjh

dougieruggie wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

Thornely's article, not even remotely critical of Kidney.

Not only is he refusing to be critical of Kidney but he's also wishing another coach out of a job. That he doesn't want to see Lancaster succeed is, IMO, petty and bitter. The guy deserves a huge amount of credit for what he's done and the RFU could do a hell of a lot worse.

JRant

molloyjh wrote: »

dougieruggie wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

Thornely's article, not even remotely critical of Kidney.

Not only is he refusing to be critical of Kidney but he's also wishing another coach out of a job. That he doesn't want to see Lancaster succeed is, IMO, petty and bitter. The guy deserves a huge amount of credit for what he's done and the RFU could do a hell of a lot worse.

Ah but it makes sense when you realise he's not in bed with Lancaster and can speak his mind in that regard.
If DK is still in charge for the NZ game there's no point in even watching the games tbh. This is a team that gave up against the old enemy, doesn't get much worse then that for a manager and all Thornley can do is make excuses about props.

lologram

JRant wrote: »

Ah but it makes sense when you realise he's not in bed with Lancaster and can speak his mind in that regard.
If DK is still in charge for the NZ game there's no point in even watching the games tbh. This is a team that gave up against the old enemy, doesn't get much worse then that for a manager and all Thornley can do is make excuses about props.

...and star signs and chicken entrails and comets and...

Thornley has become the King of Excuses. In the words of Dr. Cox: "When you hear hoofsteps, you should think horses not zebras."

When Ireland play badly for years, with the wrong squad and wrong tactics and implode against England you should think Kidney, not Tom Court or magic or ghosts or whatever other nonsense Thornley's going on about

leftleg

From this (apologies to sean sherlock copy and paste from LF fans website)

So many blips twixt this (world) cup and lip

One can rarely recall such doom and gloom, or even downright anger, as hangs over the apparent decline of an Ireland side at the moment, writes Gerry Thornley .

Perhaps we in the media, and by extension the public, over-reacted to the wins over South Africa and Australia less than a year ago and the third Triple Crown in four years that followed. Nevertheless, close your eyes and remember, or better still press play on the videos. That was cracking, modern-day, high intensity, highly skilled rugby.

Granted, the Springboks and the Wallabies had altogether longer-term priorities. Jake White brought over a largely second string team. John Connolly and his brains trust were trying different combinations with a view to getting the balance of their squad right. They were building toward this World Cup.

Ireland had more short-term objectives, were at the optimum early stage of their season and were in rude health in terms of injuries. Even so, the pace and accuracy of those performances, the clearing out, the offloading, the running lines, the lineout, the maul, the support play and the accuracy were light years away from where the team is now.

The poorness of play, anxiousness and alarming drop in standards from those performances to the recent wins over Namibia and Georgia have to be viewed in the context of three ominously sluggish warm-up games.

One cannot subscribe to the theory that this team has become a bad one overnight, for as O'Sullivan sharply observed when fending a question about "two recent blips", once there's more than one blip it's no longer a blip.

Also taking into account the abortive comeback from a nervy, stalled start against France, one outstanding 80 minutes against England, the eventually thrilling dissection of Italy, their form has gone from patchy to, as O'Sullivan admitted, "stagnant".

We were never amongst the cheerleaders hereabouts, but by the same token, O'Sullivan hasn't become a bad coach, nor have those backing him up. They were in charge on those days at home to the Boks, Wallabies and England as well as Rome. But something appears to have gone horribly wrong in the planning, physical preparation, training, selection and tactics.

Far from playing the modern game as espoused by the Southern Hemisphere sides and, two nights ago, France, Ireland have retreated into their shells and talk of a high-risk game which in fact is becoming more conservative amid fear of mistakes.

Part of the problem is, seemingly, the overt attention on the hitherto 15 Untouchables, two of whom (Peter Stringer and Denis Hickie) have paid the price for the team's stagnancy. Amongst the effects are Eoin Reddan comes in virtually cold despite two years in the system, while, allowing for the awful treatment of Geordan Murphy, Gavin Duffy could be pitched it any moment after six weeks on the sidelines.

The emphasis on "team" appears to have drawn an unhealthy demarcation line within the squad and generated a certain staleness in the "team" and in the direction they're being led. O'Sullivan seems at as much of a loss as anyone. You look at Jake White feverishly bouncing thoughts and observations off newly-hired assistant coach Eddie Jones in the stands during their facile 36-0 win over England and it reminds you of how fresh ideas are often beneficial.

Most coaching shelf-lives tend to be no more than four years, six at a stretch. When Clive Woodward's went beyond that, he had at least won championships, a Grand Slam and a World Cup, but even that went quickly pear-shaped.

You wonder if the stagnancy and staleness is in part the product of the IRFU's grossly premature decision to grant O'Sullivan a four-year extension.

Amid the accolades for the "union's wisdom" in retaining "the best coach in the world", few dared question that decision but for most ex-players, coaches and foreign journalists it defied logic or belief.

The anger now being vented at O'Sullivan may well dissipate should the team spring into action on Friday and in any event should, by rights, be directed at the IRFU decision-makers who rushed to judgment. Seemingly thinking primarily of profits, rather than rugby sense, they are the ones who should be held to account, for even if O'Sullivan did hold a gun to their heads, it could only have been a water pistol.

Regardless of the last two performances the appointments committee of Neilly Jackson, Pat Whelan and Noel Murphy, along with the three men who ratified the decision, director of rugby Eddie Wigglesworth, John Hussey and CEO Philip Browne, made a risibly premature decision. No one else in the union knew about it. There was no need for it.

The World Cup is the one true, four- yearly test on a level playing field. As we said in these pages, it was akin to granting a student an A+ before sitting his finals.

This new, recently more successful generation of Ireland players despise the notion that they can't cope with the pressure of their own and the public's expectations, although there has been compelling evidence thus far that this is so. Their body language at times looks dreadful. The mood is apparently downbeat. Training is not a barrel of laughs. They look like they need a good old-fashioned piss-up. And thinking back to jam-packed hotel foyers in Melbourne four years ago, rather than a corporate lunch with overweight millionaires and union blazers, they'd be better off renewing acquaintances with their fans.

Likewise, they detest the hoary old theory that the Irish mentality is better suited to being underdogs, but maybe there will be something to it, maybe the criticism after so much praise will also sting them into anger.

When asked if France could put four tries on Ireland this Friday, Namibia's Natal Sharks prop and captain Kees Lensing said: "Yea, definitely. I must just say that I think the French are a much better outfit. I think they're a better coached side and if they just stick to their game plan, I personally believe they're just more skilled, more solid and are a better bunch of players than Ireland."

On form, Lensing is justified in his view, but in a curious way, the Ireland players might love hearing that.

And, though they might struggle to believe it at the moment, everybody still loves them and clings to the hope that they can rediscover their true selves.

To this: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0319/1224313526191.html

IRELAND HAVE had mostly good days against the auld enemy in latter years, and the way England celebrated only a second Six Nations win since 2003 in the fixture is testimony to a new-found respect. But when it goes bad, my word does it go bad.

Super Saturday? More saturated Saturday, or Scrum Saturday. This 30-9 beating brought to mind the 33-10 defeat here in 2008, which marked the end of the Eddie O’Sullivan reign and, rather more unfathomably, the end of Brian Ashton’s as well.

With another season on his contract, there’s no doubt about Declan Kidney’s position right now, even if the pressure on him has just been ratcheted up another couple of notches in advance of next June’s daunting three-Test tour to New Zealand.

However, in another oddity, its Stuart Lancaster who will have to re-apply for his job as English coach. Hopefully the RFU won’t give it to him, as he appears to be doing a very capable job.

With all bar three of England’s points emanating from an embarrassingly superior scrum, it also brought to mind Dean Richards’ debut game in 1986 at the same venue, when Paul Kennedy was called up for his one and only cap in place of the dropped Phil Orr and, on an icy skating rink, the number eight scored two tries off howitzer English scrums with referee Clive Norling also awarding a penalty try in a 25-20 win.

But on the day that was in it, with an expat-enlarged Green Army reviving memories of the World Cup, this was even more chastening and, potentially, more damaging. “Not good enough,” ventured Seán O’Brien, assuredly reflecting the views of all.

“Look, today hurt,” admitted Declan Kidney. “It hurt a lot and if it didn’t hurt, we shouldn’t be here. Everybody will walk away from the last 20 minutes of the game and that’s the bit that will really hurt us. But we have to take a look at the first 60 where we turned over the ball so often that if we got a few scores then all of a sudden it changes things around. Now that would have been difficult today because you have to have a platform and we didn’t have it obviously at scrummaging time.”

Taking the core of the team to the well one more time (six of the pack and six of the backs started the last four in a row) above all else, this defeat graphically demonstrated the shallowness of Ireland’s playing pool and in particular the dependency on Mike Ross staying fully fit, ideally for the entire 80 minutes every time.

This may, wrongly, be interpreted within the IRFU as further cause to press ahead with their misguided proposals regarding foreign players. But the years of investment in Tony Buckley didn’t bear any fruition and it’s not the presence of BJ Botha and John Afoa which is preventing the development of tightheads.

The schools, academies and provinces have been failing in this regard for years – even John Hayes and Ross were effectively products of the Irish and English club games.

“I’d imagine that was the thinking behind it,” said Kidney in reference to the union’s proposals before listing the other options at tighthead – Ronan Loughney, Jamie Hagan and Stephen Archer – before admitting: “It’s not something you can fast track and have a solution tomorrow but I think it’s something that’s blatantly obvious that needs to be sorted.”

The cricked neck which Ross picked up shouldn’t endanger his well-being for Leinster in their upcoming, season-defining games. There were no other scars – physical at any rate – from the game, save for the usual and, of course, the bite marks on Stephen Ferris’ right hand. Nor were there any citings of last night, although the match-citing officer has until 48 hours after the game to take action.

This sour aftertaste will linger until June. With a world ranking of eighth in the year of a World Cup draw, that three-Test assignment against the All Blacks – returning to the Eden Park scene of their coronation for their first Test since the World Cup final, followed by a first, highly-emotional first Test in Christchurch since the earthquake there – doesn’t offer much evidence of succour.

The circumstances would appear to narrow Kidney’s scope for making further change, though then again Saturday’s defeat arguably makes that more of a viable consideration.

“That’s something we could do. Obviously the thing to do now is to see how the guys perform in the coming weeks. You’re going to weigh that up with the fact that our first match was on August 4th and we have a tour to go over to New Zealand.

“So you can either run from that or you can accept the challenge full on and that’s what we need to do. We’ll pick our best players because it’s important that we represent ourselves the best we can. But, are there challenges ahead? Absolutely. Are we up for it? Without a shadow of a doubt.”

Gert Smal’s health appears to be more of a concern than was initially conveyed, but Kidney remained confident that his forwards coach would be back in situ come the New Zealand tour.

“He was ill for a while but he’s starting to recover now. I was talking to him the other day and he’s starting to get back on his feet now again. So I’ll give him another week or two before we sit down and see how he is faring. He’ll have been working with his doctors just to sort things out but there’s every sign that he will be good for June.”

He goes through Eddie but has not an iota of attacking spin for Deccie; its hear warming knowing you have friends in high places like the media.

Shelflife

Its true what kidney says about the prop problem, you cant fast track the issue, but at the same time sticking your head in the sand and singing loudly will not solve the problem either.

It was clear to a layperson years ago that Buckley was not the answer to our prayers, yet they persevered with him, brought him to the world cup and prayed that they wouldn't have to use him, why didn't they bring Hagan and at least give him exposure to the level that he needs to hit, he genuinely couldn't to any worse then Buckley and the experience would do him no harm.

how many games has court played at tight head for ulster? its not courts fault that he's not up to international standard if he's not playing tight head often enough.

Whats the point in having for example 2 locks with close on 100 caps each and then the back up with with 10-15 caps or in Mcarthys case 4 caps and how many of the backup up players caps have come in the last few mins of a game when for some reason kidney gives them a run with bizarrely in Cullens case 30 secs to go.

you could have the senario that a player could have 15 caps and not even a full game under their belt.

there seems to be no succession plan to any of the first 15 players apart from hoping they wont get injured or lose form those even a dire loss of form in darcys case doesnt stop him from being picked and the solution is to put an outhalf in his place, what does that do to mcfaddens confidence ?

why when oleary has shown his inability is he picked above marshell, what harm would putting marshell on the bench do?

Its annoying that kidney has no faith in his bench and refuses to blood new players, thats why we are where we are, a moderate team with the ability to sting the top teams on occasion, thats about it !

JRant

lologram wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

Ah but it makes sense when you realise he's not in bed with Lancaster and can speak his mind in that regard.
If DK is still in charge for the NZ game there's no point in even watching the games tbh. This is a team that gave up against the old enemy, doesn't get much worse then that for a manager and all Thornley can do is make excuses about props.

...and star signs and chicken entrails and comets and...

Thornley has become the King of Excuses. In the words of Dr. Cox: "When you hear hoofsteps, you should think horses not zebras."

When Ireland play badly for years, with the wrong squad and wrong tactics and implode against England you should think Kidney, not Tom Court or magic or ghosts or whatever other nonsense Thornley's going on about

Exactly and now poor Tom Court is getting a hiding in the press and we're all of a sudden in dire straights on the prop front. It's old news at this stage but Court aint no TH, decent LH as his performances this season have shown. Thornley should be ashamed of himself putting such drivel down on paper and he's not alone either. Jaysus even steady Eddie had the decency to go when he knew the game was up but it looks like DK will hang on to the very last.

shuffol

Shelflife wrote: »

Its true what kidney says about the prop problem, you cant fast track the issue, but at the same time sticking your head in the sand and singing loudly will not solve the problem either.

It was clear to a layperson years ago that Buckley was not the answer to our prayers, yet they persevered with him, brought him to the world cup and prayed that they wouldn't have to use him, why didn't they bring Hagan and at least give him exposure to the level that he needs to hit, he genuinely couldn't to any worse then Buckley and the experience would do him no harm.

how many games has court played at tight head for ulster? its not courts fault that he's not up to international standard if he's not playing tight head often enough.

Whats the point in having for example 2 locks with close on 100 caps each and then the back up with with 10-15 caps or in Mcarthys case 4 caps and how many of the backup up players caps have come in the last few mins of a game when for some reason kidney gives them a run with bizarrely in Cullens case 30 secs to go.

you could have the senario that a player could have 15 caps and not even a full game under their belt.

there seems to be no succession plan to any of the first 15 players apart from hoping they wont get injured or lose form those even a dire loss of form in darcys case doesnt stop him from being picked and the solution is to put an outhalf in his place, what does that do to mcfaddens confidence ?

why when oleary has shown his inability is he picked above marshell, what harm would putting marshell on the bench do?

Its annoying that kidney has no faith in his bench and refuses to blood new players, thats why we are where we are, a moderate team with the ability to sting the top teams on occasion, thats about it !

There's a perception in this country that where you have 2 players at a roughly equal level that you should go for the player on the way down with "experience" rather than the player on the way up with potential.