Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

How does someone get a look at these stats?

The IRFU are hiring a scrum coach...

rrpc

JustinDee wrote: »

He conveniently ignores Jamie Heaslip's tackle-count and turnover tally for each and every game. These stats are given out at the press conferences that he never attends and are passed up to the studio as soon as done.

It wasn't exactly a glowing endorsement by any stretch :rolleyes:

Colonialboy

rrpc wrote: »

It wasn't exactly a glowing endorsement by any stretch :rolleyes:

Id say Bowe despises Heaslip, every time theres a move on with extra men and all they need todo is get it widefast, soon as Heslip gets the ball, he puts it up the jumper , looks around for an opponent and then charges at him.

I reckon theres something going on behind the scenes with contracts and making sure to give some 'senior' players a few more years because they have earned a little golden handshake.
Id have to agree that given the punishment they take they do in fact deserve that payday, but I dont think the team is being picked on merit or form. Irish rugby selection has always been corrupt to some degree.

phog

CatFromHue wrote: »

How does someone get a look at these stats?

Press accreditation?

leftleg

phog wrote: »

Press accreditation?

writing really favourable things about Kidney in the Irish Times and the Independent no matter what.

danthefan

The Whiff of Cordite blog says since we won the Slam, so from the 2009 AIs onwards, we have played 20 times aganst top 8 opposition and we have won 6 of those games.

In a results based business, Kidney is failing miserably by any measurable standard. The press are doing a shocking job for not highlighting this.

smurphy29

In answer to the thread title, unquestionably, yes. Matty Williams knows what other countries can be like, and he has gone on record as saying the Irish media are highly co-operative.

There is generally too much parochial nonsense and agenda-pushing in the Irish meeja, and the biggest culprits are the likes of Frankie 'My Client' Sheahan and the gormless, cringeworthy Hugh Farrelly. The biggest disappointment, to me anyway, is the decline of the once great Gerry Thornley. A big thanks to the poster who put the two articles next to one another because it really drives the point home.

I remember when a Six Nations or Heineken Cup weekend started not at kick-off time but when you'd go and buy the papers to read Thornley's pre-match piece to work yourself into a state of nervous excitement. It was essential reading. Not any more. It's a tragedy that the chief rugby writer in the country has sold out his critical faculties, seemingly in a bid to cosy up to management and get the inside track. On Newstalk's Wednesday Night Rugby show you can almost hear him straining at the leash to get to Kidney's defence, no matter what the issue. It's a sad state of affairs.

.ak

Colonialboy wrote: »

Id say Bowe despises Heaslip, every time theres a move on with extra men and all they need todo is get it widefast, soon as Heslip gets the ball, he puts it up the jumper , looks around for an opponent and then charges at him.

I reckon theres something going on behind the scenes with contracts and making sure to give some 'senior' players a few more years because they have earned a little golden handshake.
Id have to agree that given the punishment they take they do in fact deserve that payday, but I dont think the team is being picked on merit or form. Irish rugby selection has always been corrupt to some degree.

You'd be forgiven for thinking the above statement is actually about POC.

The truth of the matter is Heaslip actually looks to offload often and has above par pass.

JRant

.ak wrote: »

Colonialboy wrote: »

Id say Bowe despises Heaslip, every time theres a move on with extra men and all they need todo is get it widefast, soon as Heslip gets the ball, he puts it up the jumper , looks around for an opponent and then charges at him.

I reckon theres something going on behind the scenes with contracts and making sure to give some 'senior' players a few more years because they have earned a little golden handshake.
Id have to agree that given the punishment they take they do in fact deserve that payday, but I dont think the team is being picked on merit or form. Irish rugby selection has always been corrupt to some degree.

You'd be forgiven for thinking the above statement is actually about POC.

The truth of the matter is Heaslip actually looks to offload often and has above par pass.

What is it with sll the negativitly about Heaslip? I honestly don't see it, he was really solid this 6N's.
More importantly though is DK seems hell bent on ruining the team spirit with his ridiculous actions during games. He asks SOB to do a certain job, which he was quite good at and then pulls him off around the 55/60 min mark against France and England. You could see the disgust in his face when coming off and you could say the same for Reddan. Tbh the best way to get into this team under DK is to be playing for Munster. DOC wouldn't get near the team if he played for anyone else, POM gets brought in despite others in the country playing just as well if not better and with a lot more experience, Murray goes from 5th choice to starting a WC QF without doing a single thing to deserve it, Archer gets a WH start despite the fact he plainly can't scrummage, TOL getting back in. I could go on but whats the point. I'm sure it will be precieved as provincal bias on my part but that couldn't be further from the truth. I want to see us start competing against non 'minnows' Also before anyone mentions Darcy, he's the exception not the rule.

danthefan

Let's summarise what's expected of Heaslip in every single game:

The breakdown work of Richie McCaw
The carrying game of Pierre Spies
The defensive game of Thierry Dusautoir
The passing game of Stephen Larkham*

*denotes new entry

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

The Whiff of Cordite blog says since we won the Slam, so from the 2009 AIs onwards, we have played 20 times aganst top 8 opposition and we have won 6 of those games.

In a results based business, Kidney is failing miserably by any measurable standard. The press are doing a shocking job for not highlighting this.

Its a very selective and sensationalist argument though - something you'd expect Hook to harp on about. All it tells you is that we have a ~30% win rate against opposition which is mostly better than us. Its pretty much the expected win rate if you objectively rate us as the 6th best team in the world. There are many better complaints of Kidney's management.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Journalist David Kelly was denied any contact with the team a couple of years back on a southern hemisphere tour, his crime was that he'd been justifiably critical of the teams performances. See when we take off the green tinted glasses a lot of these guys have an over inflated opinion of themselves which is constantly bolstered and tended to by their chums in the media. When someone pops up with a few home truths the boys don't like it. Reality hurts I suppose.

rrpc

danthefan wrote: »

Let's summarise what's expected of Heaslip in every single game:

The breakdown work of Richie McCaw
The carrying game of Pierre Spies
The defensive game of Thierry Dusautoir
The passing game of Stephen Larkham*

*denotes new entry

According to the scrum.com stats his stats are.

5 turnovers
91 metres
39 tackles
14 pass / 33 ran

Nobody had more turnovers, though Donnacha Ryan equaled which is very impressive.

vkid

lologram wrote: »

The bias and general low quality commentary is awful.

Sounds like the boads.ie rugby forum tbh, which has really gone to pot recently.

rrpc

vkid wrote: »

Sounds like the boads.ie rugby forum tbh, which has really gone to pot recently.

I thought things had improved here, without the usual tribal provincial sh1te that normally goes on. People seemed in the main to put that stuff behind them in favour of reasoned debate on an issue of major importance.

its_phil

rrpc wrote: »

According to the scrum.com stats his stats are.

5 turnovers
91 metres
39 tackles
14 pass / 33 ran

Nobody had more turnovers, though Donnacha Ryan equaled which is very impressive.

I'm pretty sure turnovers means turnovers to the opposite team ie.a knock on etc.

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Its a very selective and sensationalist argument though - something you'd expect Hook to harp on about. All it tells you is that we have a ~30% win rate against opposition which is mostly better than us. Its pretty much the expected win rate if you objectively rate us as the 6th best team in the world. There are many better complaints of Kidney's management.

It's a pretty straightforward stat actually, it's not selective in the slightest either considering the massive gulf between the top countries and the rest.

Secondly, I'd say it's 10 years at least since we had such a poor win record.

mikedragon32

vkid wrote: »

Sounds like the boads.ie rugby forum tbh, which has really gone to pot recently.

You neither need to read nor post here you know...

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

It's a pretty straightforward stat actually, it's not selective in the slightest either considering the massive gulf between the top countries and the rest.

Secondly, I'd say it's 10 years at least since we had such a poor win record.

I count 21 games against the current top 8 ie not incl any games against Italy or Scotland and also incl of the 2009 AI. 1 draw 6 wins and 13 losses but 3 of these losses were RWC warm up games and then there was the major mistake by the ref and touch judge in last years 6 Nations game against Wales.

I'm not sure why that date was selected as the previous season we were 4 from 5 against the current top 8 which would give a total win rate of 38%.

tolosenc

Just looking at time given to Reddan, our best scrum half, over the course of the tournament. TOL got more time off the bench in 2 games than Reddan did in 3. But the stats show that, going in to the England game, we had scored 6 tries in 188 minutes with Murray on the field, and 6 tries in 105 minutes with Reddan on the field. (TOL had 1 in 27 minutes - itself interesting as Reddan was never given that much time off teh bench in 1 game).

A try every 31:20 with Murray, and a try every 17:30 with Reddan. 2.55 tries per 80 minutes vs. 4.57 tries per game.

The media should be bashing him for not picking Reddan. Either he has something against our best player in that position and therefore doesn't pick him, which is a reason he should not be in the job, or he genuinely can't see the gulf in class, which is a reason he shouldn't be in the job.

twinytwo

tolosenc wrote: »

Just looking at time given to Reddan, our best scrum half, over the course of the tournament. TOL got more time off the bench in 2 games than Reddan did in 3. But the stats show that, going in to the England game, we had scored 6 tries in 188 minutes with Murray on the field, and 6 tries in 105 minutes with Reddan on the field. (TOL had 1 in 27 minutes - itself interesting as Reddan was never given that much time off teh bench in 1 game).

A try every 31:20 with Murray, and a try every 17:30 with Reddan. 2.55 tries per 80 minutes vs. 4.57 tries per game.

The media should be bashing him for not picking Reddan. Either he has something against our best player in that position and therefore doesn't pick him, which is a reason he should not be in the job, or he genuinely can't see the gulf in class, which is a reason he shouldn't be in the job.

that great and all.. but how long were they on the pitch with the same 14 other players?????... you can make stats up to prove whatever point you are trying to make.

by the way im not saying that murray is better than reddan.

.ak

twinytwo wrote: »

that great and all.. but how long were they on the pitch with the same 14 other players?????... you can make stats up to prove whatever point you are trying to make.

by the way im not saying that murray is better than reddan.

True stats can be used to bolster one's arguement.

But he's right in regards to the last part - the gulf in quality between Reddan and Murray and TOL is huge. The fact that even after Murray was injured DK still persisted with taking Reddan off at nearly HT means something stinks...

shuffol

Here's an excerpt from Tolands article today

The substitutions highlight Declan Kidney’s approach. Both O’Leary and Ronan O’Gara came on very early, and justifiably so. Both have been significant players in Kidney’s career and he trusts them. That clearly can’t be said of Fergus McFadden, a centre employed on the wing when the first-choice outhalf moves into centre, nor of Seán Cronin, given six minutes at the end of the most fatiguing fixture Rory Best is liable to experience.

Podge_irl

I don't understand that logic at all. There was clearly no justification for bringing TOL on.

LemonPudding

Just finished reading most Media articles post 6 nations and think they are/were too soft on DK. There are so many questions/problems that DK has to answer and sort out. Yes he's been unlucky with the lack of strength in certain positions & 4 in row etc but how is DK not been asked about his management of his coaching staff: Key media questions for DK.

Tainton - who was a part time kicking coach - he was Sextons coach during the RWC!! - how is this guy now co-attack coach. How is DK not been asked about how successful this appointment has been. Our attack was so poor for most the tournament.
Kiss - why, why why, would we get the guy to do both jobs Attack and Defence adding to his workload. Looking at the 6nations, Kiss was only allowed do Defence the week before the France game. We are now weaker in a normal area of strength. Also worry about the rugby league coaches moving to attack - how much knowledge do these guys have on 15 man game? Our attack from Lineouts is awful and no lineouts in League!!!!!!

Losing Gert Small had a big effect on the team but Foley produced the goods in terms of Lineout/And is now ready for the next stage of his coaching career. - Feek has been great for Leinster/Ireland of late but had a bad day at the office and couldn't fix it like he did in the HC final for Leinster.
Why has DK not got Fitness Coaches - the team has used 2 Leinster fitness coaches for the tournament - Cullen/Cowman. This was brought up by Sunday Indo and no other media picked up on it. How would English, French, Kiwi, Aus media react to this matter. Yet DK doesn't get questioned on it.

Why does the team analyst run the kicking tee onto the pitch. Surely his role would be better suited to providing the coaches with game info. During the RWC there were 4 people in the NZ coaching box - 3 coaches and team analyst. Wales, Eng, Scot, Fra (Ellisade) were all with their coaches.

New manager - Kearney - seems to be very active in the media- having a go about refereeing - surely he needs to be low profile like McNaughton/O'Brien/Carmody was and keep the buses/hotels booked.

The answers to some of these questions need to be addressed by DK and media need to ask. DK getting off very easily, at the moment.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't understand that logic at all. There was clearly no justification for bringing TOL on.

Reddan was gash and something needed to be done. If no substitutions were made, you'd see a similar level of moaning from the same quarters. That said, TOL is not the player you want coming off the bench.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Reddan was gash and something needed to be done. If no substitutions were made, you'd see a similar level of moaning from the same quarters. That said, TOL is not the player you want coming off the bench.

?? Are you contradicting yourself from sentence 1 to sentence 2?

Bring on a poor passing scrum-half on a wet day when you want to avoid scrums?

Reddan wasn't lighting it up but he wasn't awful.

It didn't change the result, but it was a ridiculous decision all the same.

Who on earth would moan that TOL wasn't brought on?

Podge_irl

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Reddan was gash and something needed to be done. If no substitutions were made, you'd see a similar level of moaning from the same quarters. That said, TOL is not the player you want coming off the bench.

Well exactly. I don't really understand Toland's point.

I would have had no objection to Reddan being taken off if it was anyone other then TOL on the bench. I also don't think bringing ROG on was justifiable as he had zero impact and moving your fly half to centre is daft anyway. Toland appears to be implying that the fact that Kidney knows and trusts them was justification for them coming on. Or maybe he's just explaining Kidney's thought process. I could be reading it completely wrong. It's just a bit of a muddled paragraph.

Sindri

tolosenc wrote: »

Just looking at time given to Reddan, our best scrum half, over the course of the tournament. TOL got more time off the bench in 2 games than Reddan did in 3. But the stats show that, going in to the England game, we had scored 6 tries in 188 minutes with Murray on the field, and 6 tries in 105 minutes with Reddan on the field. (TOL had 1 in 27 minutes - itself interesting as Reddan was never given that much time off teh bench in 1 game).

A try every 31:20 with Murray, and a try every 17:30 with Reddan. 2.55 tries per 80 minutes vs. 4.57 tries per game.

The media should be bashing him for not picking Reddan. Either he has something against our best player in that position and therefore doesn't pick him, which is a reason he should not be in the job, or he genuinely can't see the gulf in class, which is a reason he shouldn't be in the job.

I agree I think Reddan is the superior scrum half but Reddan was playing against Scotland and Italy at home though. 6 tries in those games while he was on the field.

rrpc

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Reddan was gash and something needed to be done. If no substitutions were made, you'd see a similar level of moaning from the same quarters. That said, TOL is not the player you want coming off the bench.

Reddan was having problems (as any scrum half will) because of the dominance of the English forwards and our retreating scrum. Bringing TOL on was a desperate throw of the dice and failed spectacularly.

To me it seemed like doing something to look like doing something and to the team it must have looked like a complete abdication of responsibility by the management or at best, utter cluelessness.

In the first half we'd had about 42/58 possession and 50/50 territory, second half possession ratio dropped to 33/67 and territory also to 33/67.