Lack of sympathy over killing of Roma girl.

Unavailable for Comment

Michaela Davis, Shane Geoghegan, Anthony Campbell, Glen Murphy, Mark Noonan, John Murdoch, Sarah, Amy and Reece Hines, Alicia Brough . . . Really the lack of outrage doesn't prove racism. Instead it merely reasserts the obvious levels of public apathy that exists for victims regardless of origin.

drdeadlift

Jack_Russell wrote: »

Are some immigrants less deserving of our sympathy? And if so why?

"The lack of public outrage over the brutal murder of a Roma teenager raises serious questions about our values as a society, according to a senior garda.
The Garda Representative Association (GRA) asked if the abduction, abuse and murder of 18-year-old Marioara Rostas would have created more public outrage had she been Irish.

GRA general secretary PJ Stone questioned why there had been no "outpourings of disgust that such depravity could be committed here".

Ms Rostas was abducted in Jan 2008 in Dublin City centre by a member of a notorious extended crime family. She was subsequently subjected to multiple rapes by at least two members of this family before being shot dead in a flat.

When her remains were found four years later, last January, in the Wicklow Mountains, the senior garda leading the investigation said she had been "brutalised and murdered for no apparent reason".

Chief Superintendent Michael O’Sullivan said she "suffered an appalling death that is incomprehensible in a civilised society".

In an editorial in the GRA journal, the Garda Review, Mr Stone said this was "a heinous crime" which shocked gardaí.
"In the final days of her life she was treated horrifically; the manner of her death too savage to be understood within a developed society," he said.

"It must be said that public outrage has not galvanised into mass demonstrations of solidarity against this direct assault on our humanity. Where are the outpourings of disgust that such a level of depravity could be committed here?

"The vocal dissension and mobilisation against fox and stag hunting and the political communication to retain the medical card for the senior citizens dwarfed any rallying against violent and murderous sexual predators."

He added: "This raises the question; would a teenager’s abduction, abuse and murder have been more newsworthy, more talked about and simply more emotive if she were an Irish national? As a society are we ambivalent towards the murder because the victim was a member of the Roma community."

Garda sources said the investigation was "progressing well" and detectives were confident of bringing charges against those involved, including the main suspect, who is in custody on separate matters.
Mr Stone said "not all murders are equal" and that some murders, such as that of Ms Rostas, should attract lengthier prison sentences.
"We propose that judges should be given greater latitude for the sentences permissible for the most heinous crimes."

All convicted murderers receive a life sentence, although the average served is 17 years.
Last January, the Law Reform Commission recommended judges be allowed powers to set minimum jail terms for murder.
Killian Forde of the Integration Centre said Roma people were "routinely demonised and dehumanised".
"It is likely that this dehumanisation was a factor in the rape, torture and murder of the girl. Is it also likely that this dehumanisation was a factor in the indifference that greeted the news and detail of her death."

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kidnapped-gang-raped-tortured-shot-and-dumped-but-no-one-cares-187340.html#ixzz1pHrnGbrG



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kidnapped-gang-raped-tortured-shot-and-dumped-but-no-one-cares-187340.html

Every day there is another killing,people are just getting use to hearing about them

starviewadams

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.If this had been an 18 year old Irish female or a female from a socially acceptable background it would've been front page news and there would've been public outrage,but because it was ''only a begging Roma girl sure'' nobody gives two shíts,which is quite a disgusting attitude to have when referring to another human being,regardless of their ethnicity.

Ellis Dee

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

Michaela Davis, Shane Geoghegan, Anthony Campbell, Glen Murphy, Mark Noonan, John Murdoch, Sarah, Amy and Reece Hines, Alicia Brough . . . Really the lack of outrage doesn't prove racism. Instead it merely reasserts the obvious levels of public apathy that exists for victims regardless of origin.

You are, unfortunately, correct. Outrage is usually confined to the local area. For example, to how many people does the name "Paddy Logan" say anything?

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+murder+of+pensioner+Paddy+Logan%3A+Just+two+old+men..what+chance...-a062541304

He was murdered in his home near Edenderry while listening to a GAA match one Sunday in 2000. But how many times has Stone or the other GRA honchoes ever said a word about him in public? On the other hand, I sometimes suspect we'll never stop hearing about the cop Gerry McCabe or that shrill widow of his - but only because going on about him suits a certain political agenda. However, the old farmer was unarmed, but McCabe had a deadly weapon and at least a chance to defend himself.

Sleepy

There's an interesting question here as to whether society de-humanises these groups or they de-humanise themselves by large portions of their numbers acting in a fashion most members of decent society find more bestial than human...

Stiffler2

What's the Big Issue ?


:rolleyes:

strandroad

mikemac1 wrote: »

Maybe he is comparing the case to the Swiss student in Galway that got huge media coverage and there were concerts to raise money

All I'm doing is trying to think of another case for a compare and contrast

http://archive.galwayindependent.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2264&Itemid=82

Yes, I remember that. I also remember the case of two Polish lads murdered with a screwdriver in Drimnagh; there was an outpour of solidarity from the Irish community to such a degree that it was even reported in Polish papers. It got a lot of column inches from the columnists right left and centre too.

Nothing like this for Marioara, and her death was so gruesome and her suffering prolonged; she could have been saved.

I wonder if it has to do with the social acceptance of gangland murders too. Sure they shoot and stab each other every day, this time they got themselves a street girl for a change

Giselle

Jack_Russell wrote: »

"The lack of public outrage over the brutal murder of a Roma teenager raises serious questions about our values as a society, according to a senior garda.

He can speak for himself.

I've literally had nightmares about what happened that poor girl and I couldn't really be more outraged.

Nodin

mhge wrote: »

Yes, I remember that. I also remember the case of two Polish lads murdered with a screwdriver in Drimnagh; there was an outpour of solidarity from the Irish community to such a degree that it was even reported in Polish papers. It got a lot of column inches from the columnists right left and centre too.

Nothing like this for Marioara, and her death was so gruesome and her suffering prolonged; she could have been saved.

I wonder if it has to do with the social acceptance of gangland murders too. Sure they shoot and stab each other every day, this time they got themselves a street girl for a change

It has to be said that the news regading the poor woman gradually emerged over a long period, where it was clear from early one what happened to the two polish lads.

lastlaugh

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

In fairness they make it pretty easy. They offer nothing to society except thievery and begging (id love to be proven wrong)

Tragic case though, nobody deserves that. I hope the guards "accidentally" release the murderers name to the Roma gangs and let them take there own justice out on him.

What are they going to do, beg him to death?

MungBean

There was a big fuss when she went missing though. I think the fact that its 4 years later that she's found separated her abduction from her murder in people eyes.

If she was found in the first week there most certainly would have been much more public outrage. Its not that because of who she is its because of how drawn out it was I think. Its a sickening crime but when a young girl goes missing for 4 years people expect the details to be grisly which limits the public shock and outrage. While people in general are no less sickened by this or sympathetic to the girl.

humberklog

Like many I find it a bit confusing as to the point of the article.

As has been said: this was a slow revealing case. The gardai themselves considered that perhaps she'd been married off within her own community.

And on that point, this garda takes a swipe at our society and doesn't bother to plant one on the Romas?

Where were they in bringing the case of this girl's disappearance into clearer vision?

I can only see one piss poor society and one cack handed police force in this story and that GRA article doesn't touch on either of them.

MungBean

starviewadams wrote: »

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.If this had been an 18 year old Irish female or a female from a socially acceptable background it would've been front page news and there would've been public outrage,but because it was ''only a begging Roma girl sure'' nobody gives two shíts,which is quite a disgusting attitude to have when referring to another human being,regardless of their ethnicity.

I dont buy that, if it had been an Irish beggar girl the reaction would largely be the same. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps it may have been different if it was someone from a higher class or different background but that has nothing to do with ethnicity. Its just a fact of life that people who live in that way in a city especially a young girl are vulnerable to being victimised by the gangs that operate there.

I think that the odd acceptance that sick things happen and they are more likely to happen to people in this girls position is more of a factor than anything relating to her ethnicity or being selfish or small minded.

gaf1983

pickarooney wrote: »

Who organises mass protests to tell murderers to stop killing people?
Does that kind of thing work, in general?

Stephen Collins, father of murder victim Roy Collins, organised one just over 3 years ago in which 5,000 people turned out.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/over-5-000-protesters-tell-criminals-to-stop-1-2188721

Monty Burnz

gaf1983 wrote: »

Stephen Collins, father of murder victim Roy Collins, organised one just over 3 years ago in which 5,000 people turned out.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/over-5-000-protesters-tell-criminals-to-stop-1-2188721

Did it stop the murders?

token101

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Did it stop the murders?

No, but it did help bring in the new special gang legislation which means the vermin can be tried and convicted by judges, rather than juries. Which they were today Lets hope the vermin don't get out this time

Jaxxy

starviewadams wrote: »

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.If this had been an 18 year old Irish female or a female from a socially acceptable background it would've been front page news and there would've been public outrage,but because it was ''only a begging Roma girl sure'' nobody gives two shíts,which is quite a disgusting attitude to have when referring to another human being,regardless of their ethnicity.

But should our society in this country react differently toward a people who have actually contributed very little to it? A tolerant society is a two way street.

Look, I have the utmost respect for anyone who works with these charities as I know how tough it can be. But you will always have apathetic reactions to these kinds of stories. What happened to the Roma girl was absolutely tragic and horrific, no doubt, and should never be wished on anyone, regardless of ethnicity, gender or even profession.

Murders happen though. And as others have said it happened years ago, there was very little coverage, we weren't exposed to any detail until much later. I'm not sure what you're expecting from people here. I think you're being unfair personally, and I haven't heard anyone say that they feel no sympathy for this girl just because she was Roma. Just because people aren't crying in the streets or say that the Roma do themselves no favours in this country doesn't make them racist.

mikemac1

starviewadams wrote: »

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.

Background, not race

There is a laneway near Abbey St Luas stop in Dublin when junkies have died.
Does anyone care? I don't have much opinion on the suject, we have a welfare HQ and a treatment clinic a few hundred metres away on Amiens St. People need to help themselves

Then another drug abuser named Katy French killed herself with drugs and it hit the papers and the journalists calling for the drug dealer to be tracked down and that the drugs were contaminated somehow.

Different background, different outcry, where's the racism?

up for anything

Jaxxy wrote: »

But should our society in this country react differently toward a people who have actually contributed very little to it? A tolerant society is a two way street.

I would hope so. People are still people.

strandroad

Jaxxy wrote: »

But should our society in this country react differently toward a people who have actually contributed very little to it? A tolerant society is a two way street.

By this logic, a murder of a child should surely be met with silence?

Jaxxy

up for anything wrote: »

I would hope so. People are still people.

Of course they are, and everyone deserves the same rights. My point is though, how can you be surprised about the attitude some people have toward the Roma?

As I said, it's a two-way street. No person, regardless of their race or background, should be able to steal, live under false pretenses off the State, prostitute or traffic without having to face the consequences. It's a widespread attitude in this country and it's not limited only to specific people. Have a read of some of the "dole scrounger" threads and you'll see what I mean.

Jaxxy

mhge wrote: »

By this logic, a murder of a child should surely be met with silence?

I was referencing something another poster said in my post. "Sure she's only a Roma begging girl". I was merely offering up an explanation as to what some people may feel toward that particular group of people and a possible reason why. I never said it was right.

tayto lover

Yakult wrote: »

Guards should do their job and stop criticizing society. And for what exactly? What does he want people to do? Maybe if you catch the criminals in the first place and make the justice system a bit less lenient maybe some of these horrendous crimes wouldn't happen.

How can the Garda make the justice system harder. It is not in their power. They only apply the laws, they don't make them.

Augmerson

tayto lover wrote: »

Gobshyte post. How can the Garda make the justice system harder. It is not in their power. They only apply the laws, they don't make them.

No need for that. He might have gotten it wrong but does make a point - some of our sentences are too lenient. The guy who killed the Swiss student in Galway had dozens of previous convictions, many for violent crimes. He should have been locked up, not out and roaming free.

You are correct though, the Gardai don't make the law's.

tayto lover

Augmerson wrote: »

No need for that. He might have gotten it wrong but does make a point - some of our sentences are too lenient. The guy who killed the Swiss student in Galway had dozens of previous convictions, many for violent crimes. He should have been locked up, not out and roaming free.

You are correct though, the Gardai don't make the law's.

Yes i apologise. But there are too many people getting away very handily in the courts and making a joke of the law. I know lads in my area who have a path worn to the courts and are in trouble every week. The Garda arrest them regularly but they laugh into their faces when leaving the court after getting treated with kid gloves and this is a border area where you need a bit of law with the shower of yahoos around here at weekends.

firefly08

\No, but it did help bring in the new special gang legislation which means the vermin can be tried and convicted by judges, rather than juries. Which they were today Lets hope the vermin don't get out this time

Yeah that whole right to trial by jury thing was wearing a bit thin :eek:

Look, what makes people outraged and kick up a fuss etc. is not the race or ethnicity etc. etc. - it's how much they can relate to the crime, and how much it affects them and their way of life.

No one reacts when a street urchin is mistreated or killed because it's normal - if you live that kind of lifestyle, that kind of thing can easily happen. it doesn't scare Joe Soap because he knows it won't happen to him.

It's the same with everything - look at the all news reports of the 28 people killed in the bus crash in Switzerland! There are bus crashes and ferry disasters of that scale at least once a week in India and/or China. We don't see that happening to us because we don't overload ferries or allow people to hang off the top of a bus. The difference is that what happened in Switzerland could happen to us. Therefore it's scary. Therefore we care more.

It's human nature...which is not to say that we shouldn't address the issue - but don't mistake it for people not giving a ****e because foreigner's lives are worth less.

up for anything

Jaxxy wrote: »

Of course they are, and everyone deserves the same rights. My point is though, how can you be surprised about the attitude some people have toward the Roma? []

For myself I am not surprised but saddened. It's much the same attitude that a hold of people hold about the travellers. Not really regarded as human.

Jaxxy wrote: »

As I said, it's a two-way street. No person, regardless of their race or background, should be able to steal, live under false pretenses off the State, prostitute or traffic without having to face the consequences. It's a widespread attitude in this country and it's not limited only to specific people. Have a read of some of the "dole scrounger" threads and you'll see what I mean.

So young girls forced into prostitution should still have to face the consequences? Children who are brought up to steal, beg, and live under false pretences without ever speaking to anyone who isn't of their 'kind' should have to face the consequences.

I wonder how many people on AH could say that they have ever spoken to a Roma in this country apart from saying things like **** off, no way, get a job, get a life, go back to where you came from, you must be joking, give us a blow job, missus and I'll give you €2, etc. Being either abused or ignored is not a nice way to grow up.

I read the dole scrounger threads and I despair of people. Economic difficulty seems to be throwing us back 200 years in attitudes towards our fellow man, woman and child.

Jaxxy

up for anything wrote: »

For myself I am not surprised but saddened. It's much the same attitude that a hold of people hold about the travellers. Not really regarded as human.

I'm not sure if people regard them as some subhuman species rather than just a people who are completely removed from their own definition of what a human society should be like. Which is a form of discrimination in itself very true.

So young girls forced into prostitution should still have to face the consequences? Children who are brought up to steal, beg, and live under false pretences without ever speaking to anyone who isn't of their 'kind' should have to face the consequences.

No, not all, I think you're picking me up wrong. The people responsible for forcing young girls into prostitution or forcing their children to beg should be held responsible. You can't hold a child accountable for that.

I wonder how many people on AH could say that they have ever spoken to a Roma in this country apart from saying things like **** off, no way, get a job, get a life, go back to where you came from, you must be joking, give us a blow job, missus and I'll give you €2, etc. Being either abused or ignored is not a nice way to grow up.

No it's a horrible way to grow up I completely agree. But their parents/guardians perpetuate this kind of behaviour and response from people. If they weren't scamming or begging or stealing they wouldn't get this response. Other cultures don't suffer anywhere near the same kind of vitriol that the Roma do. And while some stories may be exaggerated, it's a reputation that is not completely undeserved. It's a vicious cycle and until it's broken they will continue to encounter this kind of attitude.

I myself have had encounters with Roma people. There's a few of them who busk near where I work, and they're quite entertaining and funny. But being honest the majority of my experiences with Roma have been quite negative. That's just me personally mind, I can't speak for anyone else. And like any culture or people, you'll get the bad apples with the good.

I read the dole scrounger threads and I despair of people. Economic difficulty seems to be throwing us back 200 years in attitudes towards our fellow man, woman and child.

That, like many other attitudes you will encounter, is just symptomatic of a serious lack of understanding.

Eric Cartman

Jack_Russell wrote: »

Are some immigrants less deserving of our sympathy? And if so why?

Yes , Because... while it is tragic that this girl was killed, unfortunatly I would say almost all Irish peoples experience with roma (along with some other minority groups) are negative ones. Its the activities of the visible sect of the roma community that sheds a negative light on them, and so Irish people dont feel bad about crimes committed against them, considering the crimes perpetrated by the roma community against Irish people.

Im not saying this girl specifically committed crimes, but when you say the word roma to an Irish person, they automatically think of beggars, thieves, the children standing at ATM machines trying to rob you. I wish I could say it was a minority of roma in Ireland doing this, but I know that is not the case.

the purple tin

Stone is angry with the public for not being outraged about this killing.
How does he know what we're thinking about this, or any murder for that matter?
Is he psychic? Does he have a window into the mind of every single Irish person?
I think he should wise up.