Lack of sympathy over killing of Roma girl.

Jack_Russell

Are some immigrants less deserving of our sympathy? And if so why?

"The lack of public outrage over the brutal murder of a Roma teenager raises serious questions about our values as a society, according to a senior garda.
The Garda Representative Association (GRA) asked if the abduction, abuse and murder of 18-year-old Marioara Rostas would have created more public outrage had she been Irish.

GRA general secretary PJ Stone questioned why there had been no "outpourings of disgust that such depravity could be committed here".

Ms Rostas was abducted in Jan 2008 in Dublin City centre by a member of a notorious extended crime family. She was subsequently subjected to multiple rapes by at least two members of this family before being shot dead in a flat.

When her remains were found four years later, last January, in the Wicklow Mountains, the senior garda leading the investigation said she had been "brutalised and murdered for no apparent reason".

Chief Superintendent Michael O’Sullivan said she "suffered an appalling death that is incomprehensible in a civilised society".

In an editorial in the GRA journal, the Garda Review, Mr Stone said this was "a heinous crime" which shocked gardaí.
"In the final days of her life she was treated horrifically; the manner of her death too savage to be understood within a developed society," he said.

"It must be said that public outrage has not galvanised into mass demonstrations of solidarity against this direct assault on our humanity. Where are the outpourings of disgust that such a level of depravity could be committed here?

"The vocal dissension and mobilisation against fox and stag hunting and the political communication to retain the medical card for the senior citizens dwarfed any rallying against violent and murderous sexual predators."

He added: "This raises the question; would a teenager’s abduction, abuse and murder have been more newsworthy, more talked about and simply more emotive if she were an Irish national? As a society are we ambivalent towards the murder because the victim was a member of the Roma community."

Garda sources said the investigation was "progressing well" and detectives were confident of bringing charges against those involved, including the main suspect, who is in custody on separate matters.
Mr Stone said "not all murders are equal" and that some murders, such as that of Ms Rostas, should attract lengthier prison sentences.
"We propose that judges should be given greater latitude for the sentences permissible for the most heinous crimes."

All convicted murderers receive a life sentence, although the average served is 17 years.
Last January, the Law Reform Commission recommended judges be allowed powers to set minimum jail terms for murder.
Killian Forde of the Integration Centre said Roma people were "routinely demonised and dehumanised".
"It is likely that this dehumanisation was a factor in the rape, torture and murder of the girl. Is it also likely that this dehumanisation was a factor in the indifference that greeted the news and detail of her death."

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kidnapped-gang-raped-tortured-shot-and-dumped-but-no-one-cares-187340.html#ixzz1pHrnGbrG



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kidnapped-gang-raped-tortured-shot-and-dumped-but-no-one-cares-187340.html

howsyourtusk

Roma people aren't even human in the eyes of most people which is depressing and disgusting. But I do think there wouldn't be many people who not be sympathetic to her family?

MagicMarker

There's a Roma around the corner from me that makes the best kebabs ever, I had one last night, small portion of chips though.

mike65

While its almost certainly true that the death of a Roma at the hands of a Irish drug gang wouldn't that much mourned by the Irish I think it has much more to do with the fact 4 years had passed.

wes

Simply put, the Roma are prehaps the most hated group in Europe. So, I think a huge chunk of the reason is that she was Roma.

SeaFields

mike65 wrote: »

While its almost certainly true that the death of a Roma at the hands of a Irish drug gang wouldn't that much mourned by the Irish I think it has much more to do with the fact 4 years had passed.

True and also due to facts about the murder being uncovered slowly as the Gardai piece together what happened.

bnt

What would "public outrage" achieve? It would be "preaching to the choir". The murderers and what they did are totally the norms of outside Irish society, and they would pay absolutely no attention to "public outrage". "Society" didn't cause her murder, and "society" can't supply the kind of justice necessary here.

howsyourtusk

wes wrote: »

Simply put, the Roma are prehaps the most hated group in Europe. So, I think a huge chunk of the reason is that she was Roma.

And that is evidence in itself of the ****ed up society we live in. That we can just de-humanise a whole race of people.

paddy147

Is there any sympathy or public outcry though,when anyone (regardless of nationality) is murdered/killed in Ireland???

buck65

Hard to understand what the Garda expected really, solidarity and taking to the streets after a murder?
I imagine if the girl was from say Cork all her family and friends would have been interviewed or reported on, she was just in the country without ties or friends.
No one noticed. Sorry for the girl hope she is at peace, this country is depressing.
If the ****ing Gardai did their job maybe theses scumbags would have been locked up beforehand.

pickarooney

Who organises mass protests to tell murderers to stop killing people?
Does that kind of thing work, in general?

Andy-Pandy

howsyourtusk wrote: »

That we can just de-humanise a whole race of people.

In fairness they make it pretty easy. They offer nothing to society except thievery and begging (id love to be proven wrong)

Tragic case though, nobody deserves that. I hope the guards "accidentally" release the murderers name to the Roma gangs and let them take there own justice out on him.

kowloon

[QUOTE}"The vocal dissension and mobilisation against fox and stag hunting and the political communication to retain the medical card for the senior citizens dwarfed any rallying against violent and murderous sexual predators."{/QUOTE}

If I thought rallying would do anything to stop violent crime I'd hit the streets. Unfortunately there's no election held for the purpose of choosing our violent criminals.

LostCorkGuy

it's much like the case in italy where two roma girls , were washed up on the beach .
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2437887/Italians-sunbathe-next-to-drowned-gipsy-children.html


Basically people don't care about the roma because it's imprinted into european culture at every level not to , this has been the case through out history
www.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antiziganism

thats an interesting read on the basis of the discrimination

Jack_Russell

imo this lack of apparent outrage stems from 2 sources.

the first being she was a Roma, a race who let's be honest are not well liked here or anywhere else i know of. now if she had been a college educated student, from a secure cosy middle-class home then .......

the second reason is the guy who allegedly killed her is such a total screw-ball, i cannot see how any form of public outrage will have the slightest effect on his screwed-up mind.

crusher000

I think there is of course sympathy. Just think with the passing of time and the very little detail I have seen personally reported about this crime it may not be in the public eye. I think if the op quote is true then the Garda that gave the comment should choose his words more carefully. Have Irish girls been abducted, raped and murdered the answer is Yes. Have we seen the Irish public take to the streets for them No. We need to be careful how we define people, Roma, Eastern European, Irish. Fellow human being is what links us all and that should be the only category used to describe anyone, Would there be racism if we stopped describing people by their race ?

Ellis Dee

The GRA is normally such a kneejerk reactionary body that, in the past at least, has responded savagely to all criticism of Garda action and resisted all attempts to take action against the bad apples within the ranks of the boys and gals in blue, that I was rather surprised about Stone's comments in that article.:D

It almost seemed like he gave a shit.:rolleyes:

However, his disappointment at TIPAAW (excuses to Flann O'Brien) for not getting worked up about this particular victim is explainable by numerous aspects of the case.:)

The media did not report the tearful comments of parents, siblings, cousins, favourite aunties and next-door neighbours in the same way as would probably have happened with an Irish victim. Indeed, one has to wonder how much the family cared if they allowed/encouraged a minor to beg on the streets of a foreign city.

Several years had also passed since the murder.

Naturally, it is also extraordinarily difficult to care about the Roma, and the ones most to blame for this are those of the Roma who steal and wreck at every opportunity and bring down loathing and suspicion on the rest of their community. Just a few hundred metres from where I am now, the copper cladding was stripped from the top of a wall around a children's playground one night last summer, leaving dangerous jagged edges. Fortunately, a man out walking his dog (also a friend of mine) saw the culprits and the police were waiting when they came back the following night. Roma men, and the damage they did to get a couple of thousand euros' worth of copper will take tens of thousands to repair.:(

GaryIrv93

if that was an Irish Traveller, then I doubt it would be much different - there'd be little sympathy due to the vast majority of Irish people's views on both groups.

Lawrence1895

mike65 wrote: »

While its almost certainly true that the death of a Roma at the hands of a Irish drug gang wouldn't that much mourned by the Irish I think it has much more to do with the fact 4 years had passed.

Would there be more of an outcry, if a convicted member of a notorious Irish drug gang would have been killed by a gang of Roma?

Jelly2

This case haunted me when Marioara's body was found. But what am I supposed to do about it? It wasn't in the news much after her body was found, and she was already four years dead. The papers did report that her family had been brought over to Ireland, but this is the problem in part: there were no family or friends in Ireland, as she had been in the country only for a few weeks.
I didn't even know she was Roma until recently. Whether this affected other people's reactions to her murder and the finding of her body I don't know. But it certaily didn't affect mine, and it doesn't now that I know. It is one of the most horrific cases that I can remember, and a terrifying glimpse into the dark world of gang crime. It makes me weep.

Jack_Russell

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

if that was an Irish Traveller, then I doubt it would be much different - there'd be little sympathy due to the vast majority of Irish people's views on both groups.

i agree the whole Padraig Nally case illustrates this.
some groups of people appear to be perceived as less than human, and by implication fair game.

lessons from WW2 and the Holocaust should not be so easily forgotten.

http://www.facinghistory.org/resources/hhb?_kk=the%20holocaust&_kt=db3042a6-d7d6-4290-b906-7e5c0d088b4a&gclid=CLi75pvQ664CFcIf4QodtDP1JA

Jelly2

Jack_Russell wrote: »

i agree the whole Padraig Nally case illustrates this.
some groups of people appear to be perceived as less than human, and by implication fair game.

lessons from WW2 and the Holocaust should not be so easily forgotten.

http://www.facinghistory.org/resources/hhb?_kk=the%20holocaust&_kt=db3042a6-d7d6-4290-b906-7e5c0d088b4a&gclid=CLi75pvQ664CFcIf4QodtDP1JA

To be fair, the Nally case was more complicated, as many people assumed that John Ward had contributed to his own demise. Rightly or wrongly, this influenced their views. But many others did take it as an opportunity to air their prejudices too...

Yakult

Guards should do their job and stop criticizing society. And for what exactly? What does he want people to do? Maybe if you catch the criminals in the first place and make the justice system a bit less lenient maybe some of these horrendous crimes wouldn't happen.

Jack_Russell

@Jelly2

some folk might argue all gypsies, travellers, roma etc. "had contributed to his/their own demise"

'tis a very slippery slope

iguana

"The vocal dissension and mobilisation against fox and stag hunting and the political communication to retain the medical card for the senior citizens dwarfed any rallying against violent and murderous sexual predators."

What a very, very odd comment. People protesting against public policy in order to enact a change in law or against a change in law has a purpose. Politicians can be influenced by such mobilisations. The only type of 'mobilisation' that would have any shot of influencing murderers and rapists is vigilantism. Does he want to see the streets filled with Batmen?

GaryIrv93

i agree the whole Padraig Nally case illustrates this.
some groups of people appear to be perceived as less than human, and by implication fair game.

lessons from WW2 and the Holocaust should not be so easily forgotten.

wasn't only Jews who suffered in that Holocaust, Gypsies, Poles, even handicapped people were killed. Just sickening looking at it's images.

Jelly2

Jack_Russell wrote: »

@Jelly2

some folk might argue all gypsies, travellers, roma etc. "had contributed to his/their own demise"

'tis a very slippery slope

It is indeed, you're right. But whatever about any other cases, it is hard to see how this poor girl contributed to her own demise.

mikemac1

Maybe he is comparing the case to the Swiss student in Galway that got huge media coverage and there were concerts to raise money

All I'm doing is trying to think of another case for a compare and contrast

Twenty-seven-year-old, Gerard Barry, with a fixed address of 187 Rosan Glas, Rahoon, was charged with the murder at a special sitting of Galway District Court last Friday 19 October. He arrived at the court just before 10am to jeers and abuse from the crowd gathered outside

http://archive.galwayindependent.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2264&Itemid=82

Monty Burnz

Jack_Russell wrote: »

i agree the whole Padraig Nally case illustrates this.

Do you think that Frog Ward was killed because he was a traveller, or because he was a criminal scumbag caught in the act of robbing an old man's house?

crusher000

This was also a bad case and murders aren't common place in Galway. But if her body hadn't been found for four years with the passing of time public anger would have lowered and the memory of the event lessened in peoples minds.

Jelly2

mikemac1 wrote: »

Maybe he is comparing the case to the Swiss student in Galway that got huge media coverage and there were concerts to raise money

All I'm doing is trying to think of another case for a compare and contrast

I'm wondering also about the locations. Galway, in which the murder of the Swiss student took place, is a small-ish, more tightly-knit, community, in which murder is very rare. It was incredibly shocking to its inhabitants that it happened. I think that this partly explains the reaction there.
But I would not say that this is the only reason why the reaction to the two cases has been different.

Unavailable for Comment

Michaela Davis, Shane Geoghegan, Anthony Campbell, Glen Murphy, Mark Noonan, John Murdoch, Sarah, Amy and Reece Hines, Alicia Brough . . . Really the lack of outrage doesn't prove racism. Instead it merely reasserts the obvious levels of public apathy that exists for victims regardless of origin.

drdeadlift

Jack_Russell wrote: »

Are some immigrants less deserving of our sympathy? And if so why?

"The lack of public outrage over the brutal murder of a Roma teenager raises serious questions about our values as a society, according to a senior garda.
The Garda Representative Association (GRA) asked if the abduction, abuse and murder of 18-year-old Marioara Rostas would have created more public outrage had she been Irish.

GRA general secretary PJ Stone questioned why there had been no "outpourings of disgust that such depravity could be committed here".

Ms Rostas was abducted in Jan 2008 in Dublin City centre by a member of a notorious extended crime family. She was subsequently subjected to multiple rapes by at least two members of this family before being shot dead in a flat.

When her remains were found four years later, last January, in the Wicklow Mountains, the senior garda leading the investigation said she had been "brutalised and murdered for no apparent reason".

Chief Superintendent Michael O’Sullivan said she "suffered an appalling death that is incomprehensible in a civilised society".

In an editorial in the GRA journal, the Garda Review, Mr Stone said this was "a heinous crime" which shocked gardaí.
"In the final days of her life she was treated horrifically; the manner of her death too savage to be understood within a developed society," he said.

"It must be said that public outrage has not galvanised into mass demonstrations of solidarity against this direct assault on our humanity. Where are the outpourings of disgust that such a level of depravity could be committed here?

"The vocal dissension and mobilisation against fox and stag hunting and the political communication to retain the medical card for the senior citizens dwarfed any rallying against violent and murderous sexual predators."

He added: "This raises the question; would a teenager’s abduction, abuse and murder have been more newsworthy, more talked about and simply more emotive if she were an Irish national? As a society are we ambivalent towards the murder because the victim was a member of the Roma community."

Garda sources said the investigation was "progressing well" and detectives were confident of bringing charges against those involved, including the main suspect, who is in custody on separate matters.
Mr Stone said "not all murders are equal" and that some murders, such as that of Ms Rostas, should attract lengthier prison sentences.
"We propose that judges should be given greater latitude for the sentences permissible for the most heinous crimes."

All convicted murderers receive a life sentence, although the average served is 17 years.
Last January, the Law Reform Commission recommended judges be allowed powers to set minimum jail terms for murder.
Killian Forde of the Integration Centre said Roma people were "routinely demonised and dehumanised".
"It is likely that this dehumanisation was a factor in the rape, torture and murder of the girl. Is it also likely that this dehumanisation was a factor in the indifference that greeted the news and detail of her death."

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kidnapped-gang-raped-tortured-shot-and-dumped-but-no-one-cares-187340.html#ixzz1pHrnGbrG



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kidnapped-gang-raped-tortured-shot-and-dumped-but-no-one-cares-187340.html

Every day there is another killing,people are just getting use to hearing about them

starviewadams

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.If this had been an 18 year old Irish female or a female from a socially acceptable background it would've been front page news and there would've been public outrage,but because it was ''only a begging Roma girl sure'' nobody gives two shíts,which is quite a disgusting attitude to have when referring to another human being,regardless of their ethnicity.

Ellis Dee

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

Michaela Davis, Shane Geoghegan, Anthony Campbell, Glen Murphy, Mark Noonan, John Murdoch, Sarah, Amy and Reece Hines, Alicia Brough . . . Really the lack of outrage doesn't prove racism. Instead it merely reasserts the obvious levels of public apathy that exists for victims regardless of origin.

You are, unfortunately, correct. Outrage is usually confined to the local area. For example, to how many people does the name "Paddy Logan" say anything?

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+murder+of+pensioner+Paddy+Logan%3A+Just+two+old+men..what+chance...-a062541304

He was murdered in his home near Edenderry while listening to a GAA match one Sunday in 2000. But how many times has Stone or the other GRA honchoes ever said a word about him in public? On the other hand, I sometimes suspect we'll never stop hearing about the cop Gerry McCabe or that shrill widow of his - but only because going on about him suits a certain political agenda. However, the old farmer was unarmed, but McCabe had a deadly weapon and at least a chance to defend himself.

Sleepy

There's an interesting question here as to whether society de-humanises these groups or they de-humanise themselves by large portions of their numbers acting in a fashion most members of decent society find more bestial than human...

Stiffler2

What's the Big Issue ?


:rolleyes:

strandroad

mikemac1 wrote: »

Maybe he is comparing the case to the Swiss student in Galway that got huge media coverage and there were concerts to raise money

All I'm doing is trying to think of another case for a compare and contrast

http://archive.galwayindependent.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2264&Itemid=82

Yes, I remember that. I also remember the case of two Polish lads murdered with a screwdriver in Drimnagh; there was an outpour of solidarity from the Irish community to such a degree that it was even reported in Polish papers. It got a lot of column inches from the columnists right left and centre too.

Nothing like this for Marioara, and her death was so gruesome and her suffering prolonged; she could have been saved.

I wonder if it has to do with the social acceptance of gangland murders too. Sure they shoot and stab each other every day, this time they got themselves a street girl for a change

Giselle

Jack_Russell wrote: »

"The lack of public outrage over the brutal murder of a Roma teenager raises serious questions about our values as a society, according to a senior garda.

He can speak for himself.

I've literally had nightmares about what happened that poor girl and I couldn't really be more outraged.

Nodin

mhge wrote: »

Yes, I remember that. I also remember the case of two Polish lads murdered with a screwdriver in Drimnagh; there was an outpour of solidarity from the Irish community to such a degree that it was even reported in Polish papers. It got a lot of column inches from the columnists right left and centre too.

Nothing like this for Marioara, and her death was so gruesome and her suffering prolonged; she could have been saved.

I wonder if it has to do with the social acceptance of gangland murders too. Sure they shoot and stab each other every day, this time they got themselves a street girl for a change

It has to be said that the news regading the poor woman gradually emerged over a long period, where it was clear from early one what happened to the two polish lads.

lastlaugh

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

In fairness they make it pretty easy. They offer nothing to society except thievery and begging (id love to be proven wrong)

Tragic case though, nobody deserves that. I hope the guards "accidentally" release the murderers name to the Roma gangs and let them take there own justice out on him.

What are they going to do, beg him to death?

MungBean

There was a big fuss when she went missing though. I think the fact that its 4 years later that she's found separated her abduction from her murder in people eyes.

If she was found in the first week there most certainly would have been much more public outrage. Its not that because of who she is its because of how drawn out it was I think. Its a sickening crime but when a young girl goes missing for 4 years people expect the details to be grisly which limits the public shock and outrage. While people in general are no less sickened by this or sympathetic to the girl.

humberklog

Like many I find it a bit confusing as to the point of the article.

As has been said: this was a slow revealing case. The gardai themselves considered that perhaps she'd been married off within her own community.

And on that point, this garda takes a swipe at our society and doesn't bother to plant one on the Romas?

Where were they in bringing the case of this girl's disappearance into clearer vision?

I can only see one piss poor society and one cack handed police force in this story and that GRA article doesn't touch on either of them.

MungBean

starviewadams wrote: »

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.If this had been an 18 year old Irish female or a female from a socially acceptable background it would've been front page news and there would've been public outrage,but because it was ''only a begging Roma girl sure'' nobody gives two shíts,which is quite a disgusting attitude to have when referring to another human being,regardless of their ethnicity.

I dont buy that, if it had been an Irish beggar girl the reaction would largely be the same. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps it may have been different if it was someone from a higher class or different background but that has nothing to do with ethnicity. Its just a fact of life that people who live in that way in a city especially a young girl are vulnerable to being victimised by the gangs that operate there.

I think that the odd acceptance that sick things happen and they are more likely to happen to people in this girls position is more of a factor than anything relating to her ethnicity or being selfish or small minded.

gaf1983

pickarooney wrote: »

Who organises mass protests to tell murderers to stop killing people?
Does that kind of thing work, in general?

Stephen Collins, father of murder victim Roy Collins, organised one just over 3 years ago in which 5,000 people turned out.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/over-5-000-protesters-tell-criminals-to-stop-1-2188721

Monty Burnz

gaf1983 wrote: »

Stephen Collins, father of murder victim Roy Collins, organised one just over 3 years ago in which 5,000 people turned out.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/over-5-000-protesters-tell-criminals-to-stop-1-2188721

Did it stop the murders?

token101

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Did it stop the murders?

No, but it did help bring in the new special gang legislation which means the vermin can be tried and convicted by judges, rather than juries. Which they were today Lets hope the vermin don't get out this time

Jaxxy

starviewadams wrote: »

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.If this had been an 18 year old Irish female or a female from a socially acceptable background it would've been front page news and there would've been public outrage,but because it was ''only a begging Roma girl sure'' nobody gives two shíts,which is quite a disgusting attitude to have when referring to another human being,regardless of their ethnicity.

But should our society in this country react differently toward a people who have actually contributed very little to it? A tolerant society is a two way street.

Look, I have the utmost respect for anyone who works with these charities as I know how tough it can be. But you will always have apathetic reactions to these kinds of stories. What happened to the Roma girl was absolutely tragic and horrific, no doubt, and should never be wished on anyone, regardless of ethnicity, gender or even profession.

Murders happen though. And as others have said it happened years ago, there was very little coverage, we weren't exposed to any detail until much later. I'm not sure what you're expecting from people here. I think you're being unfair personally, and I haven't heard anyone say that they feel no sympathy for this girl just because she was Roma. Just because people aren't crying in the streets or say that the Roma do themselves no favours in this country doesn't make them racist.

mikemac1

starviewadams wrote: »

I used to work for a charity that dealt with a large percentage of the Roma community in Dublin,and I remember talking to the detectives when Marioara first went missing,and then again when they found out the sickening details of what happenned to her.

The general apathy that this most vile case has been met with is just another sign of the decline of society in this country,and of the increasing emergence of selfish,small minded racism.

Background, not race

There is a laneway near Abbey St Luas stop in Dublin when junkies have died.
Does anyone care? I don't have much opinion on the suject, we have a welfare HQ and a treatment clinic a few hundred metres away on Amiens St. People need to help themselves

Then another drug abuser named Katy French killed herself with drugs and it hit the papers and the journalists calling for the drug dealer to be tracked down and that the drugs were contaminated somehow.

Different background, different outcry, where's the racism?

up for anything

Jaxxy wrote: »

But should our society in this country react differently toward a people who have actually contributed very little to it? A tolerant society is a two way street.

I would hope so. People are still people.

strandroad

Jaxxy wrote: »

But should our society in this country react differently toward a people who have actually contributed very little to it? A tolerant society is a two way street.

By this logic, a murder of a child should surely be met with silence?