New website Design & Development Costs

sheesh

Does any one else feel that the quality of the design was quiet high?

BTW the CMS used is Drupal

Good web designers are quiet hard to find

sheesh

Giblet wrote: »

What would you pay then? I'm just basing my prices on my experience, I work with plenty of clients too. then again, we provide a full software and support suite, not a mickey mouse drupal install so you might find some monkeys to pay peanuts.

so your cms is better than drupal?

Sonnenblumen

tricky D wrote: »

Nope, not easily quantifiable at all.

Costs for design and images could vary wildly. A few examples:

• cost of photos and other rights-based items could vary depending on how and who took them or if they existed before the site, what kind of licencing is required.
• the design could be based on existing print designs and exisiting branding or done up from scratch or anything in between.
• external versus internal developments of items.
• semi-state sites can have huge overheads when it comes to things like getting sign offs, excessive design input/design by committee, revsions, re-revisions, unlike the kind of operation we worked together in, many years ago, where we mainly just rolled up our sleeves and got the sh1t done, sometimes with a quick nod from Paddy or Jess.
• more stuff like training, documentation and so on.

Without any info on the likes of the above, the estimate range is huge from maybe as low as 5k to as high as 40k. Just can't tell without the info.

You're clearly working plenty with semi-states?

Let's simplify it,

no external rights, all visuals (incl photos) are in-house and available. So too is content, copy etc. Might be a few bits of tweaking slideshow, user friendly cms, nothing major. FFS.

Why is website design such a pain. Designing a house is far easier and fewer headaches.

Documentation? oh yeah, we'll need a war manual in 30 languages.

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

strandroad

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

In fairness, a lot of folks gave you an estimate hovering around or slightly up from 10k. That based on the standard of design and the number of pages of the website you show as a model of what you may want.
€500 was not given as an estimate and the €800 quotes are somehow very confused.

Also, in my experience the majority of customers would in facts want and need docs, as well as some training in order to be able to update the website on their own. If you want to exclude that, it should be specified as a non-standard wish.

28064212

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Why is website design such a pain. Designing a house is far easier and fewer headaches.

:rolleyes: I take it you've never seen the blueprints for a house, or talked to an architect

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

Which is NOT what you asked for! You did the equivalent of pointing out a nice house and asked how much it would cost to build it with no consideration of the internals. Now you're complaining that no-one assumed it was built out of plywood and didn't need a kitchen

Giblet

sheesh wrote: »

so your cms is better than drupal?

For our domain, absolutely! Silly question.

worc

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

Dude your problem is your saying "similar". That's just not enough for someoen to really quote you. What you define as similar could be different to others. You're saying X number of pages, when you should be saying how many you want. That site you linked to has 485 pages - is that how many you want? Is 484 pages "similar"? Is 500 pages similar? Do you want the "XL" option for readability that site has*?

*its at the bottom right if you haven't seen it.

If you're in a design discipline you should understand that a spec is needed to give an approriate quote - specs don't have a one liner saying "site should be similar to www.xxx.com" - this is for your protection and the designers.

Last thing you need is someone sending you invoices for "new request" work because you didn't include it in your original spec and the designers don't regard your extra requests as being "similar" to the website you linked to, and therefore are extras that need to be paid for.

sheesh

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

You're clearly working plenty with semi-states?

Let's simplify it,

no external rights, all visuals (incl photos) are in-house and available. So too is content, copy etc. Might be a few bits of tweaking slideshow, user friendly cms, nothing major. FFS.

Why is website design such a pain. Designing a house is far easier and fewer headaches.

Documentation? oh yeah, we'll need a war manual in 30 languages.

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

what do you think it would be worth?

the reason Building design appears to be more straight forward is that most people eff off and let the Architect do his job whereas with the web they try to get involved and use phrases like 'really pop out at me' and 'I'll knoiw it when i see it' or they try to design by commitee.


edit: Sorry I should clarify, if you were to do a like for like Technical comparison as in look at the number of different templates/pages used and then cost making each template

there are 4 main sections
each main section has 6 subsection.
the 24 subsections at least 10 sub-sub-sections that would have to be oked by the client so the design process could take up to a month with waiting for people to get back to you.

then building the html we are talking 24 different main pages 1 week/person then integrating it to your cms another week/person.

1 week for testing.

1-5 day training period

so how many people involved in this process?
1 project manager
1 designer
1 engineer
1 business owner
1 accountant
probably 1 sales person

other overheads

office IT etc

remember to get a job for a semi state you have to have 2 years of audited accounts so you have to be a going concern. you cannot be running it from your bedroom.

10K would be a steal

op give me 3k and I'll knock up something like in a month for you

now I am not a designer so it won't look as well (but you aren't interested in how it looks so thats ok )

I'll need a 1k deposit in advance.

serious offer btw

Sonnenblumen

28064212 wrote: »

:rolleyes: I take it you've never seen the blueprints for a house, or talked to an architect


Which is NOT what you asked for! You did the equivalent of pointing out a nice house and asked how much it would cost to build it with no consideration of the internals. Now you're complaining that no-one assumed it was built out of plywood and didn't need a kitchen

Do you usually prepare house building quotes? No, so stop wasting space with idiotic posting.

tricky D

But he makes a a good point. I say that have originally come from the construction industry. It's all very simple if you remove a variables that actually matter in the real world ie. make it unrealistic.

ed: The Corinthian has a great post which I can't locate which shows how semi-state/gov jobs very often end up working and how the price rises accordingly. I'll try to dig it up later.

Sonnenblumen

worc wrote: »

Dude your problem is your saying "similar". That's just not enough for someoen to really quote you. What you define as similar could be different to others. You're saying X number of pages, when you should be saying how many you want. That site you linked to has 485 pages - is that how many you want? Is 484 pages "similar"? Is 500 pages similar? Do you want the "XL" option for readability that site has*?

*its at the bottom right if you haven't seen it.

If you're in a design discipline you should understand that a spec is needed to give an approriate quote - specs don't have a one liner saying "site should be similar to www.xxx.com" - this is for your protection and the designers.

Last thing you need is someone sending you invoices for "new request" work because you didn't include it in your original spec and the designers don't regard your extra requests as being "similar" to the website you linked to, and therefore are extras that need to be paid for.

The example given was used to illustrate the type and feel of a site which provides clear indicators of the graphical interfaces, functionality, complexity and overall style and quality of layout/content presentations. It was hoped it would be helpful to filter out designers 'I can do that but never had' designers and others who have no grasp of competitive pricing. Who would want to pay € 30k for a € 10k service? Similarly who would want to work with someone who would require constant minding/hand holding. The designer has a fundamental responsibility to assure the client, he/she is providing the service.

Of course if you made it onto a shortlist, more specific info on actual requirements and scale etc would be provided. This little exercise has been revealing (in stark contrast to a number PM replies received) that some posters/designers should be kept away from clients for as long and as much as possible. How to display no business savvy and lose the client from the get go.

Sonnenblumen

tricky D wrote: »

But he makes a a good point. I say that have originally come from the construction industry. It's all very simple if you remove a variables that actually matter in the real world ie. make it unrealistic.

ed: The Corinthian has a great post which I can't locate which shows how semi-state/gov jobs very often end up working and how the price rises accordingly. I'll try to dig it up later.

This yap yap is getting tedious. Of course all key details/spec must be considered to prepare accurate costings. Using the analogy of the house, at leats if somebody shows a brochure of a 4 bed semi, you'd expect that any sensible response would take account of a reasonable spec for such properties and not rambling on about 1 bed Apartments or Spanish villas.

One is hardly going to build a stylish house and fill the interior with dysfunctional junk? And if someone is questioning what/which building regs conformance is necessary, well I wish such would just FO.

tricky D

Yap, yap... Same could be said about your confrontational, charmless and tiresome attitude. If you want a simplistic unrealistic estimate, use 10/12k. If you want one that is accurate and realistic, then provide a decent realistic spec that reflects the real world.

Sonnenblumen

He who pays the piper calls the tune, if you don't like it, leave the kitchen.

Trojan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

This yap yap is getting tedious. Of course all key details/spec must be considered to prepare accurate costings. Using the analogy of the house, at leats if somebody shows a brochure of a 4 bed semi, you'd expect that any sensible response would take account of a reasonable spec for such properties and not rambling on about 1 bed Apartments or Spanish villas.

One is hardly going to build a stylish house and fill the interior with dysfunctional junk? And if someone is questioning what/which building regs conformance is necessary, well I wish such would just FO.

For the web guys on this thread, the conclusion of this post is worth reading.

tricky D

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

He who pays the piper calls the tune, if you don't like it, leave the kitchen.

Absolutely, I get out of that kitchen every time. That's such an archaic and backward attitude to business. Thankfully I manage to have clients who collaborate towards solutions on jobs, instead of trying to treat me like some sort of lackey, barking clueless orders because 'I've got the chequebook, I know best, now do what I say.' And guess what, they fail because they didn't listen and wonder why. Don't need or want headaches like that - just not worth it.

Sonnenblumen

tricky D wrote: »

Absolutely, I get out of that kitchen every time. That's such an archaic and backward attitude to business. Thankfully I manage to have clients who collaborate towards solutions on jobs, instead of trying to treat me like some sort of lackey, barking clueless orders because 'I've got the chequebook, I know best, now do what I say.' And guess what, they fail because they didn't listen and wonder why. Don't need or want headaches like that - just not worth it.

I'm not going down that silly emotional and philosophical route. We both realise that anyone who does not listen, does so at peril. Ultimately the client makes the decision and anyone who earns a living (myself included) in providing a professional service is a 'lackey' of sorts.

Pedestals must get lonely sometimes?

Trojan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

anyone who earns a living in providing a professional service is a 'lackey' of sorts.

That is completely and utterly wrong.

No wonder this thread has gone downhill.

Sonnenblumen

Trojan wrote: »

That is completely and utterly wrong.

No wonder this thread has gone downhill.

Sorry if you are anyway offended, but let me clarify, if someone must work for a living, then it does seem reasonable to assume:

Lackey = Worker.

I do agree that thread has lost its way, due to large presence of Divas and Prima Donnas.

The Corinthian

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Anyone willing to estimate what it might cost to do a site similar to: http://www.bordnamonahorticulture.ie/ ?

When asking for an estimate here, you should bare in mind that not all of the responders are qualified or have the experience necessary to do so. The principle mistake is that many will ignore everything other than the development; requirements, analysis, design, reviews, testing, deployment, training and inevitable change requests and maintenance will not get factored in.

Of estimates, I'd advise that you should rather be asking for a time and materials breakdown and not a financial estimate, as this will ultimately be of far greater use to you. Other than giving you the time needed to develop such a site (and thus give you an idea of how fast you can get to market), times should vary far less than rates (even with Irish Webdev SME's rates vary wildly) and allow you to better question why such-and-such a part of the project will take this long.

Nonetheless, I would echo the view that figures of €500 or €800 are wildly unrealistic. Without having looked at the functionality too closely, I'd roughly guestimate at between 150 and 200 hours work, including all that pesky non-development stuff, so €10k is probably not an unreasonable estimate.

sheesh

christ obvious troll is obvious.

how the hell did i get sucked in!!!!

Sonnenblumen

The Corinthian wrote: »

When asking for an estimate here, you should bare in mind that not all of the responders are qualified or have the experience necessary to do so. The principle mistake is that many will ignore everything other than the development; requirements, analysis, design, reviews, testing, deployment, training and inevitable change requests and maintenance will not get factored in.

Of estimates, I'd advise that you should rather be asking for a time and materials breakdown and not a financial estimate, as this will ultimately be of far greater use to you. Other than giving you the time needed to develop such a site (and thus give you an idea of how fast you can get to market), times should vary far less than rates (even with Irish Webdev SME's rates vary wildly) and allow you to better question why such-and-such a part of the project will take this long.

Nonetheless, I would echo the view that figures of €500 or €800 are wildly unrealistic. Without having looked at the functionality too closely, I'd roughly guestimate at between 150 and 200 hours work, including all that pesky non-development stuff, so €10k is probably not an unreasonable estimate.

Thanks for your constructive comments and helpful hints and yes I fully agree that quotes < € 800 are utterly ridiculous and fail to understand the project scope and requirements. But mind you, plenty of interest from some developers wishing to build a similar site for a lot less than € 20k. There's a good opportunity to earn realistic fees as well as add a quality reference site for portfolio. I've been there in my own field, I call it an 'opportunity cost' which pitch must carefully consider.

Sonnenblumen

sheesh wrote: »

christ obvious troll is obvious.

how the hell did i get sucked in!!!!

You're wrong pal. If I were you, stick to the knitting/stay out and refrain from throwing out wild accusations.

The Corinthian

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

But mind you, plenty of interest from some developers wishing to build a similar site for a lot less than € 20k.

I've no doubt there are plenty who would do it for less than €20k, but not having done proper analysis on your requirements I really couldn't tell you if this would be a good or bad price.

I've been on both sides of the tendering process. On the client side, my experience is that you will get everything from ridiculously high and low quotes; both extremes tend to be unrealistic. Good things to look at are what project management process the supplier proposes, how much effort they have put into actually addressing your requirements (the amount of 'padding' in these things is sometimes insane) and then, ideally aided by someone in the industry, assess how realistic some of their individual delivery estimates are.

Also watch out for honey traps; low price deals that have exorbitant change request or maintenance fees attached or little or no provision for bug fixing. Remember that once you sign off on a spec, any additions or changes are going to be extra.

Consider how you want to deal with the design phase; more prototyping (more expensive, but easier for a non-technical client to deal with) or more documentation based (cheaper, but harder for a non-technical client to deal with). This is important as the onus is on you to sign off on what you want - if you screw up on that, you'll be paying later.

And make sure full documentation is included as part of the deal. Without it, changing supplier later on can become expensive.

There's a good opportunity to earn realistic fees as well as add a quality reference site for portfolio. I've been there in my own field, I call it an 'opportunity cost' which pitch must carefully consider.

Don't overestimate the value of your site as a reference site. The more experienced and professional a developer or development house, the less they need another one and additionally, reference sites of little use if they are not around in two years time.

As with sweat equity, the promise of a reference site is something you will need to sell to a developer or development house. Just because you believe in what you're doing, doesn't mean anyone else is going to drink your cool-aid, after all and most experienced developers or development houses will get someone looking for free/cheap work done on the promise of the Next Big Thing(TM) several times a year, so we can afford to be sceptical.

The promise of additional work, such as a maintenance contract or phase 2+, probably is more attractive. However, even there you still need to sell to the developer or development house that such a promise is not simply conversation.

VMotion

The website in question does seem to have ecommerce features but they are available to registered users only http://www.bordnamonahorticulture.ie/retailers
Without knowing what is inside and what kind of back-office integration was provided it is pretty difficult to estimate. I do hope that they've managed to stay in €100K budget but could add about 20-30% on top depending on the amount of stakeholders and the approval process.

To the OP, this quote is absolutely irrelevant for you.
For your own website you can go for a premium Wordpress Theme (up to €100), and custom logo design (€500 at the most with stationary suite) and do all the integration yourself. Would look better then the majority of the websites in Irish part of the Internet-land if you have any-what usable IT skills. You can contact designers for a bespoke theme and get if for €3-€10K depending on your specs. Or you could even approach a developer with a premium theme of your choice and ask for pure integration. It will keep your costs under €1.5K.
Spell out what you are looking for and people will be much more able to help you.

- Regards

Sonnenblumen

VP

that's very useful and yes I realise now that the reference site contained more hidden areas than I realised and which I would not require (incl e commerce).

Seamless functionality with a high quality GUI are essential. On the otherhand, our current site which runs to several hundred pages, so I'm not looking for a basic brochure site but rather a very extensive resource with a simple yet effective CMS. I have been looking at various options/features for some time, and yes Drupla and/or Wordpress, are constantly coming up as probably the most likely or preferred platform.

I will probably hire an SME to help me prepare the technical brief.

Trojan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

On the otherhand, our current site which runs to several hundred pages, so I'm not looking for a basic brochure site but rather a very extensive resource with a simple yet effective CMS.

Be careful of underestimating the time/cost of migrating your existing pages, it can take significant planning and implementation, depending on the type of data (content), the existing CMS (if any) and the page formatting.

rolion

hi,
just me in here...
how can one working from the back room of his office/house asks for 10-20k to prepare a web site like that !?? i mean,most of the stuff is known already,can be re-used,re-touched !!
it doesn't require new learning,new material,new software/hardware to be purchased !! only labour and sweat !!!
way off my understanding...

is like the good Celtic Tiger years,when an architect /engineer will ask for 10k to give you a plan for an extension...now,same guys doing it for 2.5k !
who's to be blamed ?? not the architect but the client that pays !!
i mean...us !

come on,is 2012 not 2008 ... today's Q is how much not when or how long !!

regards

The Corinthian

rolion wrote: »

how can one working from the back room of his office/house asks for 10-20k to prepare a web site like that !?? i mean,most of the stuff is known already,can be re-used,re-touched !!

Most of the stuff can be reused? Possibly, if you have the rights to it and the client does not mind a boiler plate design.

As to cost, it really comes down to how many hours it would take you and your rate. I'm not in Ireland, but would agree that Webdev rates have likely fallen, although there's a limit to how far any professional should allow that to happen before a McJob begins to look attractive.

Looking briefly at the example site, I guesstimated about 150 - 200 hours, most of which would not even be actual development and as Trojan pointed out would also require data migration.

How long would you think it would take then?

is like the good Celtic Tiger years,when an architect /engineer will ask for 10k to give you a plan for an extension...now,same guys doing it for 2.5k !
who's to be blamed ?? not the architect but the client that pays !!
i mean...us !

Blame the law of supply and demand. Economics 101.

Giblet

I'm sure the client doesn't want a guy in his back room / office of his house doing the job (the guys who tend to be on the lower end of the scale, not the 10k). You pay for everything and all the people involved. Business Analysts, Design, Support, Operations, Developers, all who need to be paid and all who will provide a quality of service that makes the 10k a bargain (10k is entry level for our clients, it's an order of magnitude bigger at least for the larger ones)