New website Design & Development Costs

Sonnenblumen

Anyone willing to estimate what it might cost to do a site similar to: http://www.bordnamonahorticulture.ie/ ?

TPM

I cant help with a quote but one bit of advice when considering someone to design a website for you check out sites they have already done and make sure they are capable of giving you what you want. There are a lot of people/companies doing websites after a few days of a course but arent capable of much more that filling in a few templates.

The site you linked has a lot in it and is a lot more than a typical "€500 job"
like everything you get what you pay for, once the company can do it that is

sheesh

looks like a large brouchure site Any ecommerce on it I cannot find any

the design looks good, as in really good, As in the designer seems really know what they are about they have alot of parts to it and it all comes together really well

that could easily be a €10k plus site

TPM

70+ pages, well laid out, nice colours etc, alot of design and layout time gone into it let alone the actual uploading of the content. (weeks of work id imagine)
Cant see any e commerce on it.

tramoreman

probably talking about 800euro theres about 70+ pages

Trojan

tramoreman wrote: »

probably talking about 800euro theres about 70+ pages

A lot there - maybe even €815-820's worth...

Giblet

sheesh wrote: »

looks like a large brouchure site Any ecommerce on it I cannot find any

No eCommerce, but would need a CMS that can handle products of some kind.

Having done some similar sites in the past, this would easily fall into the €10k+ region, could easily double that depending on how involved the bespoke work is.

Sonnenblumen

There's probably much truth to 'you get what yoyu pay for' but prices ranging from € 500.00 to € 10k or even € 20k is ridiculous. So far this is clearly revealing that it proves the point it pays to shop around. Not just for fair value but to find somebody who might confidently assure you that he/she knows what they're talking about?

Giblet

What would you pay then? I'm just basing my prices on my experience, I work with plenty of clients too. then again, we provide a full software and support suite, not a mickey mouse drupal install so you might find some monkeys to pay peanuts.

redhills

We recently did a survey on this very topic, big range of prices are the norm, this might give you a steer: http://www.redhills.ie/2012/03/06/breakdown-of-web-survey-results/

cormee

Trojan wrote: »

A lot there - maybe even €815-820's worth...

Easy now

OP, I'd second the 10k plus estimate, I'd say closer to 15k than 10

S.M.B.

So what do you think it's worth OP?

€200? €350? €499?

Kenny Logins

tramoreman wrote: »

probably talking about 800euro theres about 70+ pages

I have no idea what digit is missing from this estimate.

uck51js9zml2yt

interesting survey results.

Giblet

You'd really need to see the correlation between cost and what was asked for.

tramoreman

did some research on web design prices 1 or 2 years ago thats what it costs why dont you put up the spec or an example spec what ever the case may be. prices range for 70 pages range from 800euros - 10649euros

tramoreman

cheapest abroad is 2750euros

Kenny Logins

tramoreman wrote: »

probably talking about 800euro theres about 70+ pages

tramoreman wrote: »

did some research on web design prices 1 or 2 years ago thats what it costs why dont you put up the spec or an example spec what ever the case may be. prices range for 70 pages range from 800euros - 10649euros

tramoreman wrote: »

cheapest abroad is 2750euros

Ok.

strandroad

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

There's probably much truth to 'you get what yoyu pay for' but prices ranging from € 500.00 to € 10k or even € 20k is ridiculous. So far this is clearly revealing that it proves the point it pays to shop around. Not just for fair value but to find somebody who might confidently assure you that he/she knows what they're talking about?

Who said €500? This is clearly not a €500 job...
You're not likely to stay under 10k IMO unless you find a really good freelancer who can cover everything from site planning/UX through design to CMS coding and is a very quick worker; but it would be extreme value for money if you were successful in finding such a person.

Sonnenblumen

Giblet wrote: »

What would you pay then? I'm just basing my prices on my experience, I work with plenty of clients too. then again, we provide a full software and support suite, not a mickey mouse drupal install so you might find some monkeys to pay peanuts.

If I were a web developer/designer and was asked to provide a quote for a specific site, I think I would be able to quote within a narrower range of € 10k +/- 100%. Someone else has already quoted €20k for Drupal platform and € 15k for Wordpress, which according to your logic would suggest there are plenty of Mickey Mouse characters out there.

Sonnenblumen

S.M.B. wrote: »

So what do you think it's worth OP?

€200? €350? €499?

As you haven't/unable to make any meaningful contribution, I'd prefer to ignore your childish remark.

Sonnenblumen

tramoreman wrote: »

cheapest abroad is 2750euros

Sorry but I would prefer to focus on Irish based service providers.

TPM

mhge wrote: »

Who said €500? This is clearly not a €500 job...
You're not likely to stay under 10k IMO unless you find a really good freelancer who can cover everything from site planning/UX through design to CMS coding and is a very quick worker; but it would be extreme value for money if you were successful in finding such a person.

It was my post that included the €500, but the price was quoted out of context.

TPM wrote: »

I cant help with a quote but one bit of advice when considering someone to design a website for you check out sites they have already done and make sure they are capable of giving you what you want. There are a lot of people/companies doing websites after a few days of a course but arent capable of much more that filling in a few templates.

The site you linked has a lot in it and is a lot more than a typical "€500 job"
like everything you get what you pay for, once the company can do it that is

Giblet

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

If I were a web developer/designer and was asked to provide a quote for a specific site, I think I would be able to quote within a narrower range of € 10k +/- 100%.

Really? Well I am one, and It's 10K + Extra for bespoke work (A lot of bespoke work would require a lot of money obviously). Not +/- anything. (especially not -). Maybe if you had a better spec, I could help you better, but I would charge you for consultancy. Maybe you should shoot an email off to Bord Na Mona and ask how much they paid.

I'd be more than happy to let you talk to our biz guy if you are interested.

Someone else has already quoted €20k for Drupal platform and € 15k for Wordpress, which according to your logic would suggest there are plenty of Mickey Mouse characters out there.

My logic is sound then!

tramoreman

what is the website for
if you have a budget why dont you put it up

Sonnenblumen

Giblet wrote: »

Really? Well I am one, and It's 10K + Extra for bespoke work (A lot of bespoke work would require a lot of money obviously). Not +/- anything. (especially not -). Maybe if you had a better spec, I could help you better, but I would charge you for consultancy. Maybe you should shoot an email off to Bord Na Mona and ask how much they paid.

I'd be more than happy to let you talk to our biz guy if you are interested.



My logic is sound then!

Maybe it would be better that quotes are left to the business end of the operation? I'm also involved in a design related discipline, and it would lack credibility to say to a client, well a clearly quantifiable piece of work would cost €10k - € 30k. A ridiculous range.

From my own research plenty of criticism around Drupal and many offering plenty of Wordpress for < € 15k.

I had expected it to be > € 5k but anyone saying € 20k well they're living in a different world, eg Semi-States = Fee x 2. Typical of the idiotic thinking that's are out there.

If you want to pm a weblink I'll look at your portfolio before deciding what direction to go.

Sonnenblumen

tramoreman wrote: »

what is the website for

and the relevance is...?

Budget is realistic for a professional input.

28064212

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

it would lack credibility to say to a client, well a clearly quantifiable piece of work would cost €10k - € 30k.

You have not shown a clearly quantifiable piece of work. You've shown a website with no idea of what's needed on the backend. You might as well show someone a picture of a car and ask how much it would cost to buy it, with no idea of whether there's an engine inside

Giblet

28064212 wrote: »

You have not shown a clearly quantifiable piece of work. You've shown a website with no idea of what's needed on the backend. You might as well show someone a picture of a car and ask how much it would cost to buy it, with no idea of whether there's an engine inside

Exactly. If you were to ask for a custom SAP integration for products or content, how much extra do you think that would cost? The spec isn't clear, any costs are estimates, and they vary wildly due to my knowledge that while they might look similar, one site might sit unmolested for years, while another has daily automated updates and requires integration with some custom interface.

tricky D

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

well a clearly quantifiable piece of work would cost €10k - € 30k. A ridiculous range.

Nope, not easily quantifiable at all.

Costs for design and images could vary wildly. A few examples:

• cost of photos and other rights-based items could vary depending on how and who took them or if they existed before the site, what kind of licencing is required.
• the design could be based on existing print designs and exisiting branding or done up from scratch or anything in between.
• external versus internal developments of items.
• semi-state sites can have huge overheads when it comes to things like getting sign offs, excessive design input/design by committee, revsions, re-revisions, unlike the kind of operation we worked together in, many years ago, where we mainly just rolled up our sleeves and got the sh1t done, sometimes with a quick nod from Paddy or Jess.
• more stuff like training, documentation and so on.

Without any info on the likes of the above, the estimate range is huge from maybe as low as 5k to as high as 40k. Just can't tell without the info.

tramoreman

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

and the relevance is...?

Budget is realistic for a professional input.

you want people to quote for the job but you wont tell them whats it for no one will be prepared to take it on unless you give a proper design brief you need to specify the brief

is this a redesign of you web site or a brand new one

sheesh

Does any one else feel that the quality of the design was quiet high?

BTW the CMS used is Drupal

Good web designers are quiet hard to find

sheesh

Giblet wrote: »

What would you pay then? I'm just basing my prices on my experience, I work with plenty of clients too. then again, we provide a full software and support suite, not a mickey mouse drupal install so you might find some monkeys to pay peanuts.

so your cms is better than drupal?

Sonnenblumen

tricky D wrote: »

Nope, not easily quantifiable at all.

Costs for design and images could vary wildly. A few examples:

• cost of photos and other rights-based items could vary depending on how and who took them or if they existed before the site, what kind of licencing is required.
• the design could be based on existing print designs and exisiting branding or done up from scratch or anything in between.
• external versus internal developments of items.
• semi-state sites can have huge overheads when it comes to things like getting sign offs, excessive design input/design by committee, revsions, re-revisions, unlike the kind of operation we worked together in, many years ago, where we mainly just rolled up our sleeves and got the sh1t done, sometimes with a quick nod from Paddy or Jess.
• more stuff like training, documentation and so on.

Without any info on the likes of the above, the estimate range is huge from maybe as low as 5k to as high as 40k. Just can't tell without the info.

You're clearly working plenty with semi-states?

Let's simplify it,

no external rights, all visuals (incl photos) are in-house and available. So too is content, copy etc. Might be a few bits of tweaking slideshow, user friendly cms, nothing major. FFS.

Why is website design such a pain. Designing a house is far easier and fewer headaches.

Documentation? oh yeah, we'll need a war manual in 30 languages.

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

strandroad

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

In fairness, a lot of folks gave you an estimate hovering around or slightly up from 10k. That based on the standard of design and the number of pages of the website you show as a model of what you may want.
€500 was not given as an estimate and the €800 quotes are somehow very confused.

Also, in my experience the majority of customers would in facts want and need docs, as well as some training in order to be able to update the website on their own. If you want to exclude that, it should be specified as a non-standard wish.

28064212

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Why is website design such a pain. Designing a house is far easier and fewer headaches.

:rolleyes: I take it you've never seen the blueprints for a house, or talked to an architect

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

Which is NOT what you asked for! You did the equivalent of pointing out a nice house and asked how much it would cost to build it with no consideration of the internals. Now you're complaining that no-one assumed it was built out of plywood and didn't need a kitchen

Giblet

sheesh wrote: »

so your cms is better than drupal?

For our domain, absolutely! Silly question.

worc

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

Dude your problem is your saying "similar". That's just not enough for someoen to really quote you. What you define as similar could be different to others. You're saying X number of pages, when you should be saying how many you want. That site you linked to has 485 pages - is that how many you want? Is 484 pages "similar"? Is 500 pages similar? Do you want the "XL" option for readability that site has*?

*its at the bottom right if you haven't seen it.

If you're in a design discipline you should understand that a spec is needed to give an approriate quote - specs don't have a one liner saying "site should be similar to www.xxx.com" - this is for your protection and the designers.

Last thing you need is someone sending you invoices for "new request" work because you didn't include it in your original spec and the designers don't regard your extra requests as being "similar" to the website you linked to, and therefore are extras that need to be paid for.

sheesh

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

You're clearly working plenty with semi-states?

Let's simplify it,

no external rights, all visuals (incl photos) are in-house and available. So too is content, copy etc. Might be a few bits of tweaking slideshow, user friendly cms, nothing major. FFS.

Why is website design such a pain. Designing a house is far easier and fewer headaches.

Documentation? oh yeah, we'll need a war manual in 30 languages.

Can nobody say, well a website similar to example containing x nr of pages, excld copyright and parking ticket charges, no war docs, etc would cost approx € X (+/- 30%) and take approx to complete. :(

what do you think it would be worth?

the reason Building design appears to be more straight forward is that most people eff off and let the Architect do his job whereas with the web they try to get involved and use phrases like 'really pop out at me' and 'I'll knoiw it when i see it' or they try to design by commitee.


edit: Sorry I should clarify, if you were to do a like for like Technical comparison as in look at the number of different templates/pages used and then cost making each template

there are 4 main sections
each main section has 6 subsection.
the 24 subsections at least 10 sub-sub-sections that would have to be oked by the client so the design process could take up to a month with waiting for people to get back to you.

then building the html we are talking 24 different main pages 1 week/person then integrating it to your cms another week/person.

1 week for testing.

1-5 day training period

so how many people involved in this process?
1 project manager
1 designer
1 engineer
1 business owner
1 accountant
probably 1 sales person

other overheads

office IT etc

remember to get a job for a semi state you have to have 2 years of audited accounts so you have to be a going concern. you cannot be running it from your bedroom.

10K would be a steal

op give me 3k and I'll knock up something like in a month for you

now I am not a designer so it won't look as well (but you aren't interested in how it looks so thats ok )

I'll need a 1k deposit in advance.

serious offer btw

Sonnenblumen

28064212 wrote: »

:rolleyes: I take it you've never seen the blueprints for a house, or talked to an architect


Which is NOT what you asked for! You did the equivalent of pointing out a nice house and asked how much it would cost to build it with no consideration of the internals. Now you're complaining that no-one assumed it was built out of plywood and didn't need a kitchen

Do you usually prepare house building quotes? No, so stop wasting space with idiotic posting.

tricky D

But he makes a a good point. I say that have originally come from the construction industry. It's all very simple if you remove a variables that actually matter in the real world ie. make it unrealistic.

ed: The Corinthian has a great post which I can't locate which shows how semi-state/gov jobs very often end up working and how the price rises accordingly. I'll try to dig it up later.

Sonnenblumen

worc wrote: »

Dude your problem is your saying "similar". That's just not enough for someoen to really quote you. What you define as similar could be different to others. You're saying X number of pages, when you should be saying how many you want. That site you linked to has 485 pages - is that how many you want? Is 484 pages "similar"? Is 500 pages similar? Do you want the "XL" option for readability that site has*?

*its at the bottom right if you haven't seen it.

If you're in a design discipline you should understand that a spec is needed to give an approriate quote - specs don't have a one liner saying "site should be similar to www.xxx.com" - this is for your protection and the designers.

Last thing you need is someone sending you invoices for "new request" work because you didn't include it in your original spec and the designers don't regard your extra requests as being "similar" to the website you linked to, and therefore are extras that need to be paid for.

The example given was used to illustrate the type and feel of a site which provides clear indicators of the graphical interfaces, functionality, complexity and overall style and quality of layout/content presentations. It was hoped it would be helpful to filter out designers 'I can do that but never had' designers and others who have no grasp of competitive pricing. Who would want to pay € 30k for a € 10k service? Similarly who would want to work with someone who would require constant minding/hand holding. The designer has a fundamental responsibility to assure the client, he/she is providing the service.

Of course if you made it onto a shortlist, more specific info on actual requirements and scale etc would be provided. This little exercise has been revealing (in stark contrast to a number PM replies received) that some posters/designers should be kept away from clients for as long and as much as possible. How to display no business savvy and lose the client from the get go.

Sonnenblumen

tricky D wrote: »

But he makes a a good point. I say that have originally come from the construction industry. It's all very simple if you remove a variables that actually matter in the real world ie. make it unrealistic.

ed: The Corinthian has a great post which I can't locate which shows how semi-state/gov jobs very often end up working and how the price rises accordingly. I'll try to dig it up later.

This yap yap is getting tedious. Of course all key details/spec must be considered to prepare accurate costings. Using the analogy of the house, at leats if somebody shows a brochure of a 4 bed semi, you'd expect that any sensible response would take account of a reasonable spec for such properties and not rambling on about 1 bed Apartments or Spanish villas.

One is hardly going to build a stylish house and fill the interior with dysfunctional junk? And if someone is questioning what/which building regs conformance is necessary, well I wish such would just FO.

tricky D

Yap, yap... Same could be said about your confrontational, charmless and tiresome attitude. If you want a simplistic unrealistic estimate, use 10/12k. If you want one that is accurate and realistic, then provide a decent realistic spec that reflects the real world.

Sonnenblumen

He who pays the piper calls the tune, if you don't like it, leave the kitchen.

Trojan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

This yap yap is getting tedious. Of course all key details/spec must be considered to prepare accurate costings. Using the analogy of the house, at leats if somebody shows a brochure of a 4 bed semi, you'd expect that any sensible response would take account of a reasonable spec for such properties and not rambling on about 1 bed Apartments or Spanish villas.

One is hardly going to build a stylish house and fill the interior with dysfunctional junk? And if someone is questioning what/which building regs conformance is necessary, well I wish such would just FO.

For the web guys on this thread, the conclusion of this post is worth reading.

tricky D

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

He who pays the piper calls the tune, if you don't like it, leave the kitchen.

Absolutely, I get out of that kitchen every time. That's such an archaic and backward attitude to business. Thankfully I manage to have clients who collaborate towards solutions on jobs, instead of trying to treat me like some sort of lackey, barking clueless orders because 'I've got the chequebook, I know best, now do what I say.' And guess what, they fail because they didn't listen and wonder why. Don't need or want headaches like that - just not worth it.

Sonnenblumen

tricky D wrote: »

Absolutely, I get out of that kitchen every time. That's such an archaic and backward attitude to business. Thankfully I manage to have clients who collaborate towards solutions on jobs, instead of trying to treat me like some sort of lackey, barking clueless orders because 'I've got the chequebook, I know best, now do what I say.' And guess what, they fail because they didn't listen and wonder why. Don't need or want headaches like that - just not worth it.

I'm not going down that silly emotional and philosophical route. We both realise that anyone who does not listen, does so at peril. Ultimately the client makes the decision and anyone who earns a living (myself included) in providing a professional service is a 'lackey' of sorts.

Pedestals must get lonely sometimes?

Trojan

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

anyone who earns a living in providing a professional service is a 'lackey' of sorts.

That is completely and utterly wrong.

No wonder this thread has gone downhill.

Sonnenblumen

Trojan wrote: »

That is completely and utterly wrong.

No wonder this thread has gone downhill.

Sorry if you are anyway offended, but let me clarify, if someone must work for a living, then it does seem reasonable to assume:

Lackey = Worker.

I do agree that thread has lost its way, due to large presence of Divas and Prima Donnas.

The Corinthian

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Anyone willing to estimate what it might cost to do a site similar to: http://www.bordnamonahorticulture.ie/ ?

When asking for an estimate here, you should bare in mind that not all of the responders are qualified or have the experience necessary to do so. The principle mistake is that many will ignore everything other than the development; requirements, analysis, design, reviews, testing, deployment, training and inevitable change requests and maintenance will not get factored in.

Of estimates, I'd advise that you should rather be asking for a time and materials breakdown and not a financial estimate, as this will ultimately be of far greater use to you. Other than giving you the time needed to develop such a site (and thus give you an idea of how fast you can get to market), times should vary far less than rates (even with Irish Webdev SME's rates vary wildly) and allow you to better question why such-and-such a part of the project will take this long.

Nonetheless, I would echo the view that figures of €500 or €800 are wildly unrealistic. Without having looked at the functionality too closely, I'd roughly guestimate at between 150 and 200 hours work, including all that pesky non-development stuff, so €10k is probably not an unreasonable estimate.