Possible Hike in Motor Tax to be announced today (old)

Riskymove

creedp wrote: »

Apparently, in the halls of power, there is particular disquiet that 520d owners are paying the same Motor Tax as those driving Fiesta's and that is being used as a reason/excuse to resturcture the system so that 520d owners will pay more.

the disquiet is that so many cars are paying the lowest rates; if the BMW and the Fiesta had the same rate but they were high rates they wouldn't care

as mentioned, in the previous system, someone with a 10 year old 2 litre Mondeo paid the same tax as someone with a brand new 520D...that didn't cause any unease at the time

the new system encouraged many buyers into lower tax, bigger engine, diesels at a hit to tax revenue. Its clear the current governemnt don't have the same interest in lower CO2 vehicles so it remnains to be seen what they will do

creedp

Riskymove wrote: »

the disquiet is that so many cars are paying the lowest rates; if the BMW and the Fiesta had the same rate but they were high rates they wouldn't care

The real reason remains that revenue has fallen too much other than that I'll agree to differ with you:)

Max Power1

dahamsta wrote: »

So, has there actually been an announcement?

Please, save me from having to wade through the same posts by the same people as last week. Again.

+1
Seems a lot of hot air tbh.
The dogs on the street know that the CO2 rates will have to be hiked in the next budget, the tv3 story has nothing further to add to this, there was no concrete or substance in the piece

Riskymove

Max Power1 wrote: »

+1
Seems a lot of hot air tbh.
The dogs on the street know that the CO2 rates will have to be hiked in the next budget, the tv3 story has nothing further to add to this, there was no concrete or substance in the piece

just looked at the transcript...nothing about future changes or review of motor tax mentioned at all

great TV3 reporting!!


http://debates.oireachtas.ie/TR4/2012/03/14/00003.asp

ottostreet

Maybe if motor tax was REDUCED, more people would pay it.

I'd love to hear from a guard, at the average checkpoint, what rough percentage of cars are untaxed? I'd imagine it's quite high.

Jimdagym

I know the "down 700m€ figure is bandied about a lot, but what I'd love to see is what the difference is between say last years motor tax take and how much it would have been with every car on the old rates.

Motor tax down but tax on fuel through the roof :rolleyes:

FGR

If they restructured the method in which people can declare vehicles off the road then they'd more than make up for lost revenue.

But of course, no. They'll take the easy option and hike it up for everyone.

Anan1

ForegoneReality wrote: »

If they restructured the method in which people can declare vehicles off the road then they'd more than make up for lost revenue.

But of course, no. They'll take the easy option and hike it up for everyone.

Isn't that in the process of being introduced?

dr.fuzzenstein

Anan1 wrote: »

Isn't that in the process of being introduced?

Would be an interesting one.
There was a lot of scaremongering along the lines of "you will have to pay tax for every banger that's sitting in your yard!", but more likely it will be a system like the UK (isn't it always, irish lawmakers have to be the magpies of Europe), where you will have to declare your car off the road before you lay it up.
And that makes a lot of sense and hopefully there will be less pisstake going on than the present system.
But as we know, the Irish approach to law doesn't include enforcement, a "sure, t'will be grand" attitude seems to prevail, so without enforcement the pisstake will continue.
And with that, the honest Joe pays for everyone who decides that paying up is not for them and the state is likely to do nothing, other than hike up tax due to non payers.
Argh. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic here, but there's not a lot to give you faith in the system.

So, since there was nothing new in that bit of news, should this be part of this thread maybe?

dahamsta

Indeed. There's about a dozen mods in here, could there not be a SORN thread, a fuel-tax thread, and a general Motor Tax bitch thread. Then I could just ignore the latter.

johnos1984

dahamsta wrote: »

Indeed. There's about a dozen mods in here

Don't mention THE WAR

heate

When will people get over the master stroke that BMW has pulled on the 520d's tax compliance.
The issue for the powers that be is not that €50k 520d owner is paying €225 and the owner of a yaris is paying the same. The issue is that they isn't envisage the manufacturers making such strides and as a result the tax take has plummeted.
They can't penalise you for driving a BMW over a Toyota for begrudgerys sake. All that will happen is the introduction of more bands and a lowering of the current bands to up the tax take on existing c02 payers.
I can understand some people's consternation with motor tax on cars over 190g/km or +2101cc because they are obscene and I can't think of another European nation with such strange rates. But below that I can't see the issue

creedp

heate wrote: »

When will people get over the master stroke that BMW has pulled on the 520d's tax compliance.

To be fair I dont think BMW invented the 520d in response to Irish Motor Tax changes it just happenned to be a significant beneficiary under the new scheme. Just like the old scheme was unfair as it focussed solely on engine size, this one is flawed as it focuses solely on CO2. Each system produced anomolies and that is why a hybrid system is being considered. The main problem at present is the massive spread in rates across the bands. This certaintly needs to be addressed.

sk8board

the problem is simple - motor tax is an important form of income for the Gov's current spending budget.

if the current system stays in place, the tax-take from motor tax will continue to drop until all the old pre-08 cars have washed through to the scrap heap, and there will be a few hundred million of a hole where the old motor tax take used to be.

this change in the co2 system is simply to pre-empt that huge drop in tax-take in a few years time.

makes sense if you're protecting the tax take (if you agree with it or not).

increasing tax on fuel is just a tax on co2, not necessarily on road usage (due to the pletoria of high-mpg cars used by fleets).

obi604

anyone know when these re structured car tax prices could potentially be introduced ?

obi604

obi604 wrote: »

anyone know when these re structured car tax prices could potentially be introduced ?

2013 at the earliest I would think, after the budget.

alias no.9

sk8board wrote: »

increasing tax on fuel is just a tax on co2, not necessarily on road usage (due to the pletoria of high-mpg cars used by fleets).

Of course it's a tax on usage, it scales proportionally with usage for any given road user. Executive fleet cars clocking up 1000km per week, currently paying band b road tax are exactly the kind of cars that will be generating more revenue for the government compared to somebody currently paying 5 times the tax and doing 1/10 of the mileage. There may be other factors but usage is absolutely a key factor.

bazz26

Motor Tax changes generally are introduced at the begining of the calendar year however if the system is being overhauled again like they did in 2008 then it may not follow that trend. I would imagine the 1st January at the earliest anyway.

Henry Ford III

I was thinking about road tax reform at the w/e. Sad existance clearly.

I can't see any pre 08 rates decreasing - revenue is vital I suppose. Lots of folk with higher road tax vehicles won't like this, but it's nothing new.

A SORN type system is required immediately. There's too many evaders as is. The old Garda station stamp to cover periods of non use is being abused wholesale.

For 08 and newer vehicles I suggest the following:

1/. A basic rate. Say €250 p.a. Everybody pays at least this amount. Manufacturers have been very clever in minimising CO2, so much so that the obiquitous 520d for example pays mininmal road tax currently.

2/. Loadings to apply for:-

i/. Higher powered vehicles. Say 130bhp 10%, 150bhp 20%, 170bhp 30%, and 200bhp 50%. Vehicles to be reassessed should they be remapped.

ii/. Weight. Similar loadings based on excess over a set standard kerb weight.

I reckon such a system would be workable, and would provide a more even playing field between pre and post 08 vehicles, and would also generate extra revenue.

Leonard Hofstadter

I definitely don't want a tax on power - there is enough of a stigma in this country about buying a car with anything more than a woefully underpowered small capacity engine without reminding people every time they tax their car that thier car is "too powerful". Such a tax would discriminate against petrol engines, because petrol engines usually produce more power than their diesel equivalent. A tax for both power and torque might be more equitable though.

A weight tax is a good idea as well, once the bands aren't excessive. The only problem with a weight tax is that this again penalises people who want more than a Paddy spec engine and Paddy spec levels of equipement in their car, because decent spec cars and/or larger engines weigh more than the poverty spec ones.

It would also discriminate against people who need diesels because of the miles they are doing, though given that so many people are buying a diesel to save a euro a week on motor tax even though they only use the car to go to the shops, this may not be such a bad idea, as it will make people who don't need a diesel go back to petrol, which will be good for their wallets in the longer run.

I agree 100% with the suggestion of bringing in SORN though, the amount of cars out there with out of date tax is gone beyond a joke now.

Personally I favour the idea of everyone paying the same basic rate of tax (whatever the average per vehicle is at the moment so as to ensure there is no lost revenue) so that way there is a clear emphasis on the polluter paying the most.

vetstu

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Vehicles to be reassessed should they be remapped.

But sure then donedeal would be full of ads,
150hp on the log book, but mapped to 180. Cheap Tax

No matter what system is brought in there will be evaders and people who will try to dodge it.
SORN is badly needed, but will probably take a few years to update the Garda ANPR to deal with it.

One good way I saw in the north a few weeks ago was the DVLA Tax check ANPR car parked up on a street in Lisburn. Just sits catching tax dodgers.
The only way they do it down here is hit those who pay, to cover the losses from the dodgers, instead of penalising them

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

................

For 08 and newer vehicles I suggest the following:

1/. A basic rate. Say €250 p.a. Everybody pays at least this amount. Manufacturers have been very clever in minimising CO2, so much so that the obiquitous 520d for example pays mininmal road tax currently.

2/. Loadings to apply for:-

i/. Higher powered vehicles. Say 130bhp 10%, 150bhp 20%, 170bhp 30%, and 200bhp 50%. Vehicles to be reassessed should they be remapped.

ii/. Weight. Similar loadings based on excess over a set standard kerb weight.

I reckon such a system would be workable, and would provide a more even playing field between pre and post 08 vehicles, and would also generate extra revenue.

How would the reassessing of remapped cars be workable? Many folks doing remaps claim the manufacturers can't detect the map I believe.

Using the figures above a 200bhp low emissions diesel would be €375/annum, that's €45 more than the current 141 - 155 band.

A sub 130bhp low emissions yoke will be €250/annum, that's €90 more than the current 0 - 120 band.

I reckon they'll be reforming it more than that.

I'd also expect the pre 2008 rates to increase too.

Henry Ford III

RoverJames wrote: »

How would the reassessing of remapped cars be workable? Many folks doing remaps claim the manufacturers can't detect the map I believe.

Using the figures above a 200bhp low emissions diesel would be €375/annum, that's €45 more than the current 141 - 155 band.

A sub 130bhp low emissions yoke will be €250/annum, that's €90 more than the current 0 - 120 band.

I reckon they'll be reforming it more than that.

I'd also expect the pre 2008 rates to increase too.

Not sure how easy or othewise it'd be but maybe the remap thing could be NCT linked someway?

The rates and loadings were only guesswork, but:-

1/. Are there any 200bhp low emissions vehicles? A 520d or A4 2.0TDI would both be ultra low tax as is but are 170bhp odd I think. These are the type of cars the legislators want to target I think. €160 (or €104 until recently) was a tiny liability for an expensive relatively powerful car. This type of car is heavy too, so might incur extra tax under my suggested system.

2/. €250 p.a. is an awful lot more than €104 - a 240% increase. I think that's pretty substantial.

Twiki

I'd expect the Dept to try and keep the admin and systems changes to a minimum while still looking to increase tax revenue and mitigate the '520d effect'. One of the simplest would be to combine both pre and post-2008 systems and apply a weighting for each.

A 50-50 split would leave a 2L B-rater at 443 euro and a 1.6L A-rater at 319.

With such an approach partly retaining a CO2-rating, it would probably require extra banding at the low end also.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

............

2/. €250 p.a. is an awful lot more than €104 - a 240% increase. I think that's pretty substantial.

........current lowest rate is €160 not €104 afaik

Henry Ford III

RoverJames wrote: »

........current lowest rate is €160 not €104 afaik

It was €104 before the last 60% hike. I think it's fair take that increase into account.

It might not be fair but reform will look at current rates and revenue from same and compare that to what's needed/the target unfortunately imo.

Max Power1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

It was €104 before the last 60% hike. I think it's fair take that increase into account.

Not really
€104 is too low for a realistic motor tax rate, the dogs in the street knew that it would be drastically increased.

A rise of €56 is hardly a "hike", when the similar rate for older cars of the same ilk is still 3-4 times the new rate (at least)

Henry Ford III

Max Power1 wrote: »

Not really
€104 is too low for a realistic motor tax rate, the dogs in the street knew that it would be drastically increased.

A rise of €56 is hardly a "hike", when the similar rate for older cars of the same ilk is still 3-4 times the new rate (at least)

Easy say all that in retrospect.

The €104 (at the time) rate drove a large proportion of new car sales.

Little benefit in looking at absolute increses in € terms. It's % increases that really count.

I suspect the govt might be hard pushed to justify say €250 p.a. on band A cars. People would get very thick about it, and they'd probably have a point. They'd have paid a lot of VRT and VAT only to be hit with a 240% road tax increase. So much so they might defer buying new again - which would lead to a far greater loss of revenue.