"no Irish " ad in Oz

runawaybishop

listermint wrote: »

Empathy with hitlers hatred of the Jews would be similiar no?

Lets see empathy with the colonists who took over south africa and kept the black population down...

Empathy with the governments who had black people sit on 'black specific' seats on the bus in the US..

Empathy with the no blacks no irish no dog signs in england throughout the 60's..

Where does your empathy and condemnation begin?
Im failing to comprehend you.

Then you clearly do not know what empathy is. I must assume you are on the interwebs now, so i will wait while you google it.

boynesider

Pure racism, stop trying to sugarcoat it. Imagine if an Irish person put something like this up about Latvians?

sunflower27

irishmover wrote: »

Every Irish person I know over here has just got the sack :eek:

I stand corrected.

irishmover

sunflower27 wrote: »

I stand corrected.

Surely coincidental;)

Xavi6

ash23 wrote: »

Justifying bigotry isn't ok. You might dress it up as you being "understanding" but you're essentially justifying what this man did.

As a wise man said just a few posts ago, "You are equating empathy with agreement. That is clearly flawed and a terrible argument". Can you not see the difference? Seriously?

You didn't like my first analogy, fine. no need to be so belittling about it. I've posted more which seem to be more tasteful to your good self. It's not shifting goalposts, the whole theme is still the same. You wouldn't be impressed if you or your family were discriminated in relation to your nationality and you wouldn't say "ah shure it's their business they can do as they like" if it happened to you or your kids.

You're right I wouldn't be impressed, but the idea is still the same - it's their business. What are you going to do? Kick up such a fuss that they change their mind? And even if they did would you want them to?

listermint wrote: »

Xavi, I think if you tie up all your posts together you (being im assuming a reasonable person) can see that you have come across pretty much on the side that what the guy did was fairly acceptable

a) based on the fact that he owns his own business

b) the fact that he may / may not have had bad experiences with some guys that arrived from a particular region.

Where as i understand that not everyone is 'cut from the same cloth as me' I would immediately put down such an attitude were it to come up in my immediate circle or from some gougher sitting in the AE department giving out about the black doctor who is about to treat them.

its all par of the course. and yes i do believe that you being a representative of an australia orientated forum should be coming out condemning this mans actions not explaining them.

You can explain it away all you want but its mere glossing over the clear and blatant racism. which as ive said above you should be 'clearly' condemning, if not in part to promote your own forum and sport.

I'm not an After Hours moderator, I have no obligation to post here as a moderator in any capacity.

I'm also not going to bow to the masses because of some little title under my avatar on the internet. I have an opinion and I've given it. There are a few people here that have been able to comprehend what I'm saying, while others have effectively labelled me a racist (amusing really), guess that's the beauty of these discussion forums.

listermint

runawaybishop wrote: »

Then you clearly do not know what empathy is. I must assume you are on the interwebs now, so i will wait while you google it.

Okay

So let me see , you can 'empathise' as in you personally believe that this guy has a valid arguement that Irish people are a pack of wasters.

Is that empathy?

Are sure if thats the case i can empathise with everyone who believes ALL australians are racists :rolleyes:

ash23

Xavi6 wrote: »

You're right I wouldn't be impressed, but the idea is still the same - it's their business. What are you going to do? Kick up such a fuss that they change their mind? And even if they did would you want them to?

?? Seriously??
Sure where would we be if we all said "it's their business" and didn't fight discrimination.

I'm not saying I would want to work for them or enter their establishment, but I'd be damned if I'd sit back and let them stop me because I'm Irish/black/gay etc etc.

If nobody fought for equality we'd still be going to hedge schools.

Xavi6

Xavi6 wrote: »

Actually it is.

Living here I have experience of the sort of wasters that he has had applying for his job so therefore I can understand (there's that word again) why he would have a negative perception of Irish people and not want to hire them.

Your attitude is appaling, you're trying to defend the undefendable :mad:

If this guy is too 'buzy' to check for papers/qualifications of his prospective employees he deserves to get wasters applying, regardless of their nationality.

UglyBolloxFace

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

I again direct you to my post - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77552952&postcount=180

Any chance you could give me an answer? If you ignore it, then I know you've been caught out. (but sure that's already evident anyway).

I'm still waiting.

Xavi6

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Good god will you listen to yourself.

"I have experience of the sort of wasters...I can understand...why he would have a negative perception of Irish people"

Ah, taking parts of a quote in isolation. Bravo.

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

I again direct you to my post - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77552952&postcount=180

Any chance you could give me an answer? If you ignore it, then I know you've been caught out. (but sure that's already evident anyway).

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

To all of you who are defending his actions ('if he doesn't want to hire Irish then that's okay, he doesn't have to') I ask you this - would you feel the same if he said he didn't want to hire any black people?



Nope, didn't fucking think so.

I didn't address it because you seemed to have already answered it for everyone with your last line.

If he doesn't want to hire black people then he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to hire gingers he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to hire people born after 1990 he doesn't have to.

It's not necessarily right (and I've yet to say that what that guy did was 'right' btw), but if HE has HIS reasons then that's just how it is.

So have you caught me out or what?

Funglegunk

listermint wrote: »

Okay

So let me see , you can 'empathise' as in you personally believe that this guy has a valid arguement that Irish people are a pack of wasters.

Is that empathy?

Are sure if thats the case i can empathise with everyone who believes ALL australians are racists :rolleyes:

I think you're confusing empathy with sympathy.

runawaybishop

listermint wrote: »

Okay

So let me see , you can 'empathise' as in you personally believe that this guy has a valid arguement that Irish people are a pack of wasters.

Is that empathy?

Are sure if thats the case i can empathise with everyone who believes ALL australians are racists :rolleyes:

No, that is not what empathy means. Let me help you:

"the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another"

It does not mean "the understanding and immediate and unlimited agreements of another persons feelings or ideas"

Your entire premise is flawed. You need to stand back and reassess what it is you are trying to state.

UglyBolloxFace

Xavi6 wrote: »

Ah, taking parts of a quote in isolation. Bravo.



I didn't address it because you seemed to have already answered it for everyone.

If he doesn't want to hire black people then he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to hire gingers he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to hire people born after 1990 he doesn't have to.

It's not necessarily right (and I've yet to say that what that guy did was 'right' btw), but if HE has HIS reasons then that's just how it is.

So have you caught me out or what?

There's a thing called the Law...it's there for a reason. To stop employers acting the prick, and people like you defending stuff like this.

listermint

Xavi6 wrote: »

As a wise man said just a few posts ago, "You are equating empathy with agreement. That is clearly flawed and a terrible argument". Can you not see the difference? Seriously?



You're right I wouldn't be impressed, but the idea is still the same - it's their business. What are you going to do? Kick up such a fuss that they change their mind? And even if they did would you want them to?



I'm not an After Hours moderator, I have no obligation to post here as a moderator in any capacity.

I'm also not going to bow to the masses because of some little title under my avatar on the internet. I have an opinion and I've given it. There are a few people here that have been able to comprehend what I'm saying, while others have effectively labelled me a racist (amusing really), guess that's the beauty of these discussion forums.

I haven't labelled you a racist on the contrary im taking your posts on face value.

I am however wondering if you think this guys ad was

- Acceptable
- Understandable
- Reasonable
- Racism

enlighten me.

Also enlighten me as to why Australia has in legislation made such advertisement illegal and the reasons behind this. (im sure you comprehend that)

sunflower27

ash23 wrote: »

There are a few who think that it was reasonable enough. That's accepting it. I didn't say everyone was nor did I say it was going to result in a mass exile of Irish from Australia. That was your own exaggeration.

I'm merely saying the bloke was wrong to say it and has no right to discriminate based on nationality, whatever his experience with Irish employees prior to this. It shouldn't ever be acceptable to do it and particularly to be so stupidly blatant about it. Of course people should speak up against it.

Of course he was wrong and my exaggeration was to show how out of hand this is all becoming over ONE advert.

With all the talk of 'stamping this out' I have to ask do people really think his attitude is going to catch on?

One man made a stupid and ignorant mistake. ONE MAN.

Have Travellers not been treated the same here on home soil? Have they not been a discriminated minority group for decades?

runawaybishop

listermint wrote: »

I haven't labelled you a racist on the contrary im taking your posts on face value.

I am however wondering if you think this guys ad was

- Acceptable
- Understandable
- Reasonable
- Racism

enlighten me.

Also enlighten me as to why Australia has in legislation made such advertisement illegal and the reasons behind this. (im sure you comprehend that)

If you had read previous posts you would see this was already answered.

Doc Ruby

Xavi6 wrote: »

Ah, taking parts of a quote in isolation. Bravo.

You can add them back in if you like, it won't change the meaning. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Xavi6 wrote: »

What are you going to do? Kick up such a fuss that they change their mind? And even if they did would you want them to?

Yes and yes. I'm literally sitting here with my mouth open reading some of this stuff. What century did you people arrive from, I cannot believe attitudes like this still exist.

Doc Ruby

sunflower27 wrote: »

One man made a stupid and ignorant mistake. ONE MAN.

You really think this kind of thing happens in isolation, when we have xavi6 coming out with statements like he has.

ash23

sunflower27 wrote: »

Have Travellers not been treated the same here on home soil? Have they not been a discriminated minority group for decades?

Yes and I disagree with that too. However you might see a "private party" sign on a door of a pub, but you won't see "no travellers" sign.
Plus, you don't have to put things like nationality or ethnicity on a CV for those very reasons. Employers can't ask you about marital status or children etc.

Those things have all been put in place to prevent what that man did. And with good reason.

listermint

runawaybishop wrote: »

No, that is not what empathy means. Let me help you:

"the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another"

It does not mean "the understanding and immediate and unlimited agreements of another persons feelings or ideas"

Your entire premise is flawed. You need to stand back and reassess what it is you are trying to state.

Youve pointed it out yourself. Surely you can see that it makes no sense for an intellectual person to identify with racism. I honestly cant see how you can indentify that its okay to have a racist attitude towards an entire nation.

I have travelled extensively and met all sort of idiots / ars&**les and wa&&ers. I would never (as an intellectual) mark the regions these people came from with such a global tar brush. Its just doesnt make sense.

And no im not confusin empathy with sympathy. :rolleyes:

and another one :rolleyes:

runawaybishop

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm literally sitting here with my mouth open

Selective quoting of peoples posts to produce a desired effect is childish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouth_breathing

Xavi6

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

There's a thing called the Law...it's there for a reason. To stop employers acting the prick, and people like you defending stuff like this.

*sigh*

The law doesn't have the final say in who he hires, only with regard to getting 'a fair go'. He still doesn't have to hire Irish people if he doesn't want to, that's all I said.

And again, it's not defending him (back to the 'I never said he was right' bit from the previous post, did you miss that?) to say you get why he would do what he did.

Call Me Jimmy

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

keithclancy

Xavi6 wrote: »

I didn't address it because you seemed to have already answered it for everyone with your last line.

If he doesn't want to hire black people then he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to hire gingers he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to hire people born after 1990 he doesn't have to.

It's not necessarily right (and I've yet to say that what that guy did was 'right' btw), but if HE has HIS reasons then that's just how it is.

So have you caught me out or what?

No, that bold bit, would make him 100% wrong. ^^ Thats Racism.


I live in the Netherlands,

If someone doesn't hire me becuase I'm Irish then thats wrong.
If someone doesn't hire me becuase I do not speak Dutch then thats fine.

Whatever the person thinks in their own head would never be known, but if they write "NO IRISH" on a Job Advert its wrong, this sort of sh*t breeds more Racism.

listermint

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Not really.

Xavi has yet to condemn this mans action. just continues to list reasons why he understands it.

So he doesnt condemn it or he does?

runawaybishop

listermint wrote: »

Youve pointed it out yourself. Surely you can see that it makes no sense for an intellectual person to identify with racism. I honestly cant see how you can indentify that its okay to have a racist attitude towards an entire nation.

I have travelled extensively and met all sort of idiots / ars&**les and wa&&ers. I would never (as an intellectual) mark the regions these people came from with such a global tar brush. Its just doesnt make sense.

And no im not confusin empathy with sympathy. :rolleyes:

and another one :rolleyes:

You can identify without agreeing. Understanding something on an intellectual level in no way means you condone or support it. This is a very basic concept and is a key to how society functions.

Xavi6

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You can add them back in if you like, it won't change the meaning. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Yes and yes. I'm literally sitting here with my mouth open reading some of this stuff. What century did you people arrive from, I cannot believe attitudes like this still exist.

You're getting awfully worked up, maybe step away from the keyboard for a few.

listermint

runawaybishop wrote: »

You can identify without agreeing. Understanding something on an intellectual level in no way means you condone or support it. This is a very basic concept and is a key to how society functions.

Basic society functions on understanding. The understanding that the reasoning behind this mans ad was wrong. We can all comprehend why this tool wrote the ad. No one needs an explanation. But understanding it and not saying his attitude is wrong a poles apart.

Poles apart.

sunflower27

ash23 wrote: »

Yes and I disagree with that too. However you might see a "private party" sign on a door of a pub, but you won't see "no travellers" sign.
Plus, you don't have to put things like nationality or ethnicity on a CV for those very reasons. Employers can't ask you about marital status or children etc.

Those things have all been put in place to prevent what that man did. And with good reason.

And the advert is down. Is it not?

And surely there has never been an example of similar by one ignorant Irish fool either.

Maybe I am wrong, but I have been here 12 years and am fairly certain I have seen stories on the news of compensation pay-outs for discrimination. Unless of course I dreamed it

irishmover

keithclancy wrote: »

No, that bold bit, would make him 100% wrong. ^^ Thats Racism.


I live in the Netherlands,

If someone doesn't hire me becuase I'm Irish then thats wrong.
If someone doesn't hire me becuase I do not speak Dutch then thats fine.

Whatever the person thinks in their own head would never be known, but if they write "NO IRISH" on a Job Advert its wrong, this sort of sh*t breeds more Racism.

It's wrong, very wrong indeed. You'll find though that there are quite a few employers who dont employ for the same reason as the guy who posted his ad. They just don't advertise it like this guy did.

Do you think every company you apply for doesn't get back to you because you don't have the experience? Or aren't exactly what their after? Racism is unfortunately still common, not just in Australia or Ireland but everywhere. Problem is most of these employers just aren't detectable like this guy.