Why must Irish be compulsory??

RadioClash

DepoProvera wrote: »

So, your argument is: 'sure it has always been that way, what else are we going to do with all these teachers??'. Nice circular justification there bud..

Nope, don't be putting words in people's mouths..

DepoProvera wrote: »

You say the compulsory learning of Irish is vital to retaining and appreciating Irish culture? As has been said by me and others before: History is a much better way to learn about Ireland's heritage.

#Yawn# More subjective opinions. Yes History is good, thank you for the observation.

DepoProvera wrote: »

You say Irish is actively spoken? Um, no.. It's spoken by a niche group of people living in the back end of nowhere. That population is (through pure conjecture, I concede; could be wrong) shrinking as the majority of them are getting on in the years. The only time Irish I've ever heard spoken is a) students speaking in broken sentences trying to outwit foreigners b) some unique little petal who is just so engrossed in her cultural roots(they are far from fluent either)

You're right it is conjecture, the number of Irish speakers(both native and non) has grown, most notably in urban areas.

DepoProvera wrote: »

He isn't saying replace Irish with another compulsory language. You don't seem to have been able to answer the question I posed pages ago..

No, I don't think we should. There are more pressing reforms in Irish education than bowing to the 'anything but Irish' brigade.

DepoProvera wrote: »

You answered that with incredibly clumsy deflection. That is the crux of the discussion and if you can't answer that with anything better than "we already have all of these resources committed to it" then.. I don't know... Are you familiar with the phrase 'cut your losses'. Besides being a complete waste of time and money for the VAST majority of students, it is also harming your side as, as we've stated before, it is absolutely eradicating any possible appreciation for it. To say that because something is so deeply ingrained there is no point in trying to get rid of it, a sentiment you've expressed in previous posts, is just feeble and a generally poor argument to put forward.

edit: snap partyatmygaff

Mostly addressed to in my responses to partyatmygaff.

partyatmygaff

muineachan wrote: »

Why it should:
1. Irish plays a significant part in understanding Irish history

History classes already teach Irish history. Keep history to the history teachers who are better equipped to teach it.

2. Many significant works are originally in Irish, Irish was a truly European language, many works being written outside of Ireland. Therefore Irish is an important language and should be studied, in Ireland.

A truly European language as opposed to quasi-european languages like English? Also, I don't recall hearing of many "significant" works being written exclusively in Irish. Furthermore, if you're going to use significant works as an argument a far better case can be made for Latin and Greek which were the languages of the educated for hundreds of years.

4. Schools have a role to play in reviving Irish outside the Gaeltacht, as a key part of our heritage this is important and helps keep our rich traditions alive.

This sounds a lot like something i'd read on a flyer of a politician trying to canvas votes. Why should schools be tasked with the role of propping up a language? Not only that, a lot of things are part of our heritage. We don't necessarily HAVE to learn about them in school.

5. It gives Irish people a grounding with a cupla focal and helps facilitate the many people who love Irish in the same way Irish speakers facilitate English speakers.

And why does that justify it in remaining a compulsory subject?

6. Developmental advantages of being bilingual

I've addressed this point already.

Most of your points explain why you think Irish should be taught. They don't try and justify keeping it compulsory which is what this thread is about.

But it isnt so black and white, i believe there is a 3rd way and that is reforming the way Irish is taught so kids can speak it fluently so it is the spoken language that is the focus, with the literature comonent optional, I put a lot of store in culture, heritage and history. I visted more historical sites last year than banks and believe whole heartidly with reform in the way its taught it is a fully worthwhile compulsory course.

You put a lot of store in culture, heritage and history but you want to make the literature component (Which is more or less the only mildly culture-rich section of the course) optional? You're contradicting yourself tbh.

muineachan

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You put a lot of store in culture, heritage and history but you want to make the literature component (Which is more or less the only mildly culture-rich section of the course) optional? You're contradicting yourself tbh.

Thats it, I do, not everyone does and listening to the students one of the most hated components is the poems. A lot of students have said theyd prefer it if the emphasis was on spoken Irish, if you listen most people would say they woud like to come out of school being able to speak Irish. So my solution is change the way its taught and cater to the majority. I am afraid the majority of people, if you put it to a vote would not want compulsory Irish abolished. I believe the vast majority would fall in the 'it needs to be reformed, be more emphatic on spoken Irish'. The amount of people who want to keep it as it is however, is even smaller than the minority who want it abolished as a compulsory subject.

rainbowtrout

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You put a lot of store in culture, heritage and history but you want to make the literature component (Which is more or less the only mildly culture-rich section of the course) optional? You're contradicting yourself tbh.

No, he's not. To appreciate literature written in the Irish language for what it is, it's reasonable to expect a person reading it to have a level of fluency in the language rather than sitting with a dictionary translating every second word. By focusing on the spoken language first levels of fluency could be improved, perhaps enabling people to make more use of the language and then appreciate the literature that has been produced in the Irish language.

As it is you have students writing out translations into English in their textbooks to allow them to understand the poems etc they are reading. That's not what they should be doing.

Primary school students are fluent in English, but by and large are not introduced to the works of Shakespeare and Austen and Wordsworth until they are capable of understanding them properly.

partyatmygaff

muineachan wrote: »

Thats it, I do, not everyone does and listening to the students one of the most hated components is the poems. A lot of students have said theyd prefer it if the emphasis was on spoken Irish, if you listen most people would say they woud like to come out of school being able to speak Irish. So my solution is change the way its taught and cater to the majority. I am afraid the majority of people, if you put it to a vote would not want compulsory Irish abolished. I believe the vast majority would fall in the 'it needs to be reformed, be more emphatic on spoken Irish'. The amount of people who want to keep it as it is however, is even smaller than the minority who want it abolished as a compulsory subject.

Actually, at least in my school, the general consensus was that it should be made optional but if it had to stay compulsory make it less dreary by removing the literature.

Peanut

muineachan wrote: »

I am afraid the majority of people, if you put it to a vote would not want compulsory Irish abolished.

Interestingly, in a recent poll touted by Conradh na Gaeilge, Irish as a compulsory subject was 3rd last, just above French and Religion.

English, Maths, Science, Geography and History were all more favoured as compulsory subjects, although of course it goes without saying that this wasn't the line reported.

Since there are only 3 compulsory subjects in the LC, what this poll shows is a clear preference for English, Maths and Science, given the choice.

It does not show that 61% favour compulsory Irish in the LC as it stands, since the poll question assumes an open-ended number of compulsory subjects - which is of course not the situation at the moment.

And oddly, the "Science" category wasn't broken down into the respective subjects, so we can just guess that Science as a whole is perceived as a more valuable compulsory "subject". And no mention either way of Engineering, Business studies etc.

DepoProvera

Peanut wrote: »

Interestingly, in a recent poll touted by Conradh na Gaeilge, Irish as a compulsory subject was 3rd last, just above French and Religion.

English, Maths, Science, Geography and History were all more favoured as compulsory subjects, although of course it goes without saying that this wasn't the line reported.

Since there are only 3 compulsory subjects in the LC, what this poll shows is a clear preference for English, Maths and Science, given the choice.

It does not show that 61% favour compulsory Irish in the LC as it stands, since the poll question assumes an open-ended number of compulsory subjects - which is of course not the situation at the moment.

And oddly, the "Science" category wasn't broken down into the respective subjects, so we can just guess that Science as a whole is perceived as a more valuable compulsory "subject". And no mention either way of Engineering, Business studies etc.

AMAG DAT IS JUST SUBJECTIVE POLE S U B J E C T I VVV

RadioClash

DepoProvera wrote: »

AMAG DAT IS JUST SUBJECTIVE POLE S U B J E C T I VVV

You think education policy should be ran off the basis of an MRBI poll? Good luck with squaring that circle.

You don't like the rationale why Irish is compulsory? Too bad. I've outlined in over a dozen posts why It's a good idea and desirable to keep the arrangement with Irish, at this stage it's immaterial if you like them or not. As I stated earlier, few education systems are a democracy, get used to it.

The reason I don't respect the 'anything but Irish' brigade is because you use Irish as a whipping post for what you think is wrong with the education system and ignore other larger problems. The CAO system which leads students to take the easy way out, the rote learning and cramming that it brings, the drift away of students from the sciences and languages(and the fact you think getting rid of one they have to do will somehow help of of this), the dumbing down of some subjects (project Maths?? wtf?), the religious orders owning schools and having too much influence on boards of management, the general culture surrounding education as evidenced by this thread, the list go's on.

But no, these things aren't as urgent as circling around Irish and heaping abuse on it. If you get your way, then what? You wont be able to blame Irish for the mediocre outcomes across all subjects, or your dog being sick. And a system that produces a positive outcome for learning Irish for those who put in the effort over 14 years will be dismantled. All for what? A cultural grudge held against the language. You can pretend that you can implement a system for German, Mandarin or whatever from primary to secondary, but you're not living in the real world if you think we have the resources for that. What language would it be and who makes that decision without a similar discussion to the one we're having now? And where will we get the thousands of teachers needed to do it?

RadioClash

Peanut wrote: »

It does not show that 61% favour compulsory Irish in the LC as it stands, since the poll question assumes an open-ended number of compulsory subjects - which is of course not the situation at the moment.

Cut it any which way you want to, 61% of respondents answered favourably to the notion that Irish should be mandatory.

Not that phone polls make for good policy anyway.

GaryIrv93

RadioClash wrote: »

You think education policy should be ran off the basis of an MRBI poll? Good luck with squaring that circle.

You don't like the rationale why Irish is compulsory? Too bad. I've outlined in over a dozen posts why It's a good idea and desirable to keep the arrangement with Irish, at this stage it's immaterial if you like them or not. As I stated earlier, few education systems are a democracy, get used to it.

The reason I don't respect the 'anything but Irish' brigade is because you use Irish as a whipping post for what you think is wrong with the education system and ignore other larger problems. The CAO system which leads students to take the easy way out, the rote learning and cramming that it brings, the drift away of students from the sciences and languages(and the fact you think getting rid of one they have to do will somehow help of of this), the dumbing down of some subjects (project Maths?? wtf?), the religious orders owning schools and having too much influence on boards of management, the general culture surrounding education as evidenced by this thread, the list go's on.

But no, these things aren't as urgent as circling around Irish and heaping abuse on it. If you get your way, then what? You wont be able to blame Irish for the mediocre outcomes across all subjects, or your dog being sick. And a system that produces a positive outcome for learning Irish for those who put in the effort over 14 years will be dismantled. All for what? A cultural grudge held against the language. You can pretend that you can implement a system for German, Mandarin or whatever from primary to secondary, but you're not living in the real world if you think we have the resources for that. What language would it be and who makes that decision without a similar discussion to the one we're having now? And where will we get the thousands of teachers needed to do it?

People ''heap abuse'' on the policy of forcing students to learn Irish, not the language itself. And the absolute joke of this policy as well as our joke of an education system damn well deserves to have abuse thrown at it, as well as the g******es who came up with it, who live in a fantasy world still believing that forcing Irish down people's throats will get them to speak it and still refuse to accept the irrelevance of Irish in the majority of Irish people's daily lives. What I'm saying is: If you see Irish relevant to yourself, then go ahead, speak it all you want, just don't force everyone else to speak it.

If people who stand up for themselves against being force-fed Irish get their way then neither they nor any other student in this country who doesn't see Irish as a relevant subject will be forced to waste their time and resources on it, and can focus more on other more useful subjects, while leaving those who do want to keep learning Irish to their thing. Then we'd have no problems. How about giving students a bit more freedom in their own education, and then they'd actually learn something. I said earlier in the thread that the government should have no business deciding what's relevant to all students - what difference does it make to the government what subjects I take? It's not their LC, it's the student's - the student only should be given the right to decide.

muineachan

But is English has literally been forced down the throats of the Irish people for hundreds of years. So why should English be forced down the throats of people who do not want to study compulsory English? Is it because your already speak English so its easier and more convenient for you?

My children will be fluent in English, they don't need school for it. Literacy levels in English are falling in Ireland, therefore the teaching of it is terrible, so lets remove it as a subject? Or should it be reformed, like Irish, to increase literacy levels?

I'm all for equality, Irish has equal status with English and rightly so, so therefore any reduction in the teaching of Irish should be refected in English also.

Peanut

RadioClash wrote: »

Cut it any which way you want to, 61% of respondents answered favourably to the notion that Irish should be mandatory.

No need to cut it any way - compulsory Geography is more popular than compulsory Irish.

And no-one was suggesting dictacting policy based on polls, except of course for our friends,

Comhar na Múinteoirí Gaeilge is asking Fine Gael to review the party’s policy with regard to the status of Irish as a core subject at Leaving Certificate level.
...
It is clear from this survey that there is support for the Irish language amongst the public and especially amongst those aged between 15 and 34 years of age. It also proves that the majority support Irish as a compulsory subject at Leaving Certificate level.

Looks like they need some compulsory Maths classes.

GaryIrv93

muineachan wrote: »

But is English has literally been forced down the throats of the Irish people for hundreds of years. So why should English be forced down the throats of people who do not want to study compulsory English? Is it because your already speak English so its easier and more convenient for you?

Irish was replaced by English, and that's how it's going to stay, whether we like it or not. People can't and won't simply just switch their language from English to Irish, not least for the fact that fluent Irish is used by very few people in this country, compared to those who speak 99%-100% English. Besides, all Irish people who use Irish as their primary language for communication etc can also speak perfect English, but not vice versa. English is simply much more convienient to use, yes, which is why people are reluctant to speak Irish. Why kill yourself trying to communicate to everyone in Irish which is far more difficult when you can just use English and make it easier for yourself and for everyone else to understand you?

Peanut

muineachan wrote: »

But is English has literally been forced down the throats of the Irish people for hundreds of years. So why should English be forced down the throats of people who do not want to study compulsory English? Is it because your already speak English so its easier and more convenient for you?

My children will be fluent in English, they don't need school for it. Literacy levels in English are falling in Ireland, therefore the teaching of it is terrible, so lets remove it as a subject? Or should it be reformed, like Irish, to increase literacy levels?

I'm all for equality, Irish has equal status with English and rightly so, so therefore any reduction in the teaching of Irish should be refected in English also.

That's an argument against compulsory English - not an argument for compulsory Irish.

muineachan

It has everything to do with it. Irish as a language of Ireland enjoys equal status with English (on paper anyway, Irish speakers rarely get equality when wanting to speak their language), therefore any changes you want to make to Irish should be reflected in English, otherwise you are saying one is more important than the other and that contradicts the constitution. Like I said before, you need to go and change the constitution if you want Irish as an option, i.e. on a lesser footing than English within the education system. And I would accept the democratic opinion, but you and I both know the outcome of such a referendum, Irish will be maintained as one of two official languages and therefore you will have to treat it the same as English in the curriculum.

muineachan

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Irish was replaced by English, and that's how it's going to stay, whether we like it or not. People can't and won't simply just switch their language from English to Irish, not least for the fact that fluent Irish is used by very few people in this country, compared to those who speak 99%-100% English. Besides, all Irish people who use Irish as their primary language for communication etc can also speak perfect English, but not vice versa. English is simply much more convienient to use, yes, which is why people are reluctant to speak Irish. Why kill yourself trying to communicate to everyone in Irish which is far more difficult when you can just use English and make it easier for yourself and for everyone else to understand you?

I am not killing myself, anyone else who speaks Irish killing themselves trying to speak it? I speak what I have very naturally with my family and friends who speak Irish, and I switch to English very easily. Someone with two languages knows it is very easy, it is not difficult or a struggle. My English is better than my Irish, but I fail to see the problem in becoming a truly bilingual country with Irish as one of the languages, it doesn't disadvantage you. In my opinion speaking the beautiful language of Irish is very important to the identity and culture of this country. And at the centre of it's revival is a compulsory Irish course which teaches people to speak it properly.

By the way I agree, English is very convenient, I'm glad I have it, it gets me by, but that doesn't mean I should stop speaking Irish, I am very proud of my Irish and enjoy speaking it.

Peanut

Does the equal status of both languages in the constitution legally compel these subjects to be mandatory at second level education?

I don't see anything which suggests that.

Even if it did, basing 2012 education policy on tea-leaf readings from a 75 year old constitution is not that great an idea (Remember that Blasphemy is still a constitutional offense in Ireland in 2012 - presumably we won't be changing the education system to a constitutionally-friendly criminalisation of prospective Blasphemers.)

muineachan

Yes, Irish being an official language of the state in my opinion can't be taught less than English, it has to have equal footing in all areas of the public sector, including edcuation. I think if they tried to do that there would be a constitutional challenge

rainbowtrout

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Then we'd have no problems. How about giving students a bit more freedom in their own education, and then they'd actually learn something. I said earlier in the thread that the government should have no business deciding what's relevant to all students - what difference does it make to the government what subjects I take? It's not their LC, it's the student's - the student only should be given the right to decide.

And what do you propose students would come up with??? I know many of the students I teach would propose that they spend half the day playing football and the other half playing the x-box given the choice. It's not just Irish that they would ditch, they would ditch a whole array of subjects along with it.

Many students simply would not see the importance of being literate and numerate given the choice, and they don't have the wisdom to know this. I've met plenty of adults over the years who say 'I wish I worked harder at school' For the most part they don't say 'the range of subjects offered to me was crap', they normally wish they put what they were offered to better use.

Curriculum is not just decided by the government as you put it. There are a number of interested bodies who have an input, many of them from industry and realistically this is where students are going to end up looking for jobs. If you don't have the skills you can't be employed. Maybe you should have a read of the NCCA website if you want to better inform yourself.


Students are given a wide array of subjects to choose from in this country. It's not exactly hardship having 3 compulsory subjects at Leaving Cert. It gives them a wide range of options for third level.

partyatmygaff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Many students simply would not see the importance of being literate and numerate given the choice, and they don't have the wisdom to know this. I've met plenty of adults over the years who say 'I wish I worked harder at school' For the most part they don't say 'the range of subjects offered to me was crap', they normally wish they put what they were offered to better use.

Literacy = English = Compulsory
Numeracy = Mathematics = Compulsory
??? = Irish = Compulsory

What "???" is and how it is so fundamental to life is a mystery to us all.

Students are given a wide array of subjects to choose from in this country. It's not exactly hardship having 3 compulsory subjects at Leaving Cert. It gives them a wide range of options for third level.

Two of the compulsory subjects (Namely Maths and English) are useful for the vast majority of people. Irish on the other hand is by and large useless save for a tiny minority of the country.

As for third level:

• English - Almost all college courses will involve essay writing, presentation and effective communication. As such, English is a necessary subject for the vast majority of students.
• Maths - Almost all college courses will require refined logical thinking or direct application of mathematics. As such, Maths is a necessary subject for the vast majority of students.
• Irish - Very few college courses require knowledge of Irish and those that do (Namely teaching) serve only to continue teaching of Irish. As such, Irish is a necessary subject for a small minority of students.

RadioClash wrote: »

You don't like the rationale why Irish is compulsory? Too bad. I've outlined in over a dozen posts why It's a good idea and desirable to keep the arrangement with Irish, at this stage it's immaterial if you like them or not. As I stated earlier, few education systems are a democracy, get used to it.

"It's the status quo and we have the infrastructure to maintain it so eat your words and shut up because this isn't a democracy"

You seem to be under the delusion that you've actually said something convincing about maintaining the compulsory status of Irish in the LC.

The reason I don't respect the 'anything but Irish' brigade is because you use Irish as a whipping post for what you think is wrong with the education system and ignore other larger problems. The CAO system which leads students to take the easy way out, the rote learning and cramming that it brings, the drift away of students from the sciences and languages(and the fact you think getting rid of one they have to do will somehow help of of this), the dumbing down of some subjects (project Maths?? wtf?), the religious orders owning schools and having too much influence on boards of management, the general culture surrounding education as evidenced by this thread, the list go's on.

This is too funny. Someone mentions Irish and you try and deflect the conversation by going off on a million different tangents. This is a thread about the merits of keeping Irish compulsory at the LC level. Just because the Irish education may have other minor problems does not mean we can ignore the comparatively larger problem of years' worth of teaching hours and resources being wasted on a subject that few students benefit from.

This is getting to the stage where the debate has become farcical. You've stopped actually debating the point and have instead focused your efforts on trying to introduce as many red herrings as possible in to the thread with a few strawmen to try and make it appear as if you're making valid points.

Peanut

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And what do you propose students would come up with??? I know many of the students I teach would propose that they spend half the day playing football and the other half playing the x-box given the choice.

The poster didn't suggest that students devise the subject syllabus themselves, merely that they should have more flexibility in taking relevant subjects.

RadioClash

Peanut wrote: »

No need to cut it any way - compulsory Geography is more popular than compulsory Irish.

Weak. You're inferring an answer from a question that was never posed in the poll. The question that you wanted was should Irish be replaced by any of x,y or z subjects as mandatory. Such a question was not posed, and If it was you may not get the answer you were looking for. I could equally infer that the poll suggests the respondents want more subjects to be compulsory instead of the current three.

You don't know, and I don't know what the results of a poll would be if it was posed should Irish be replaced, and if so with what. So don't make up results that aren't there.

The results of the poll do show that a majority have no objection to mandatory Irish.

Peanut wrote: »

Looks like they need some compulsory Maths classes.

You need to look closer to home, 61% of respondents favour Irish as compulsory. I'm not going to explain basic statistics to you.

RadioClash

partyatmygaff wrote: »

"It's the status quo and we have the infrastructure to maintain it so eat your words and shut up because this isn't a democracy"

I never used those words so don't put them in quotation marks.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You seem to be under the delusion that you've actually said something convincing about maintaining the compulsory status of Irish in the LC.

To convince you? Not interested in convincing you of anything. I let my words stand on their own merit. You're still ploughing the same old furrow from page 1 of this thread that your perception of something being 'useless' actually makes it so.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

This is too funny. Someone mentions Irish and you try and deflect the conversation by going off on a million different tangents. This is a thread about the merits of keeping Irish compulsory at the LC level. Just because the Irish education may have other minor problems does not mean we can ignore the comparatively larger problem of years' worth of teaching hours and resources being wasted on a subject that few students benefit from.

I've been consistent. What have have been my tangents may I ask? Latin? Taxonomy? Crippling poverty in South Korea(LOL)? Wait, no that was you and your red faced buddies.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

This is getting to the stage where the debate has become farcical. You've stopped actually debating the point and have instead focused your efforts on trying to introduce as many red herrings as possible in to the thread with a few strawmen to try and make it appear as if you're making

Latin? crippling poverty? taxonomy? You're a joker.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

valid points.

Oh God of valid points, please grant me the wisdom to make my points as valid to let partatmygaff see.

partyatmygaff

RadioClash wrote: »

I never used those words so don't put them in quotation marks.

I'm putting them in quotation marks as i'm rephrasing what you're saying.

To convince you? Not interested in convincing you of anything. I let my words stand on their own merit. You're still ploughing the same old furrow from page 1 of this thread that your perception of something being 'useless' actually makes it so.

Fine. You haven't convinced me. Hell, you're not even interested in convincing me.

Why are you posting then? Have you convinced anyone in this thread (Other than yourself and people that already believed Irish should remain compulsory)?

I've been consistent. What have have been my tangents may I ask? Latin? Taxonomy? Crippling poverty in South Korea(LOL)? Wait, no that was you and your red faced buddy.

Latin? crippling poverty? taxonomy? You're a joker.

Please don't insult my intelligence or make me question yours.

For one, I never once mentioned poverty. As for Latin and it uses. My point (That I have repeated an incredible amount of times yet you seemingly ignore and/or do not understand) is
"Why is Irish compulsory when other more educationally-useful (To a larger proportion of the cohort than Irish) subjects such as Latin (Amongst many other subjects) remain optional?"

To spell it out.
English = Useful to everyone. Everyone in Ireland speaks English and the vast majority use it to communicate. Good reason for it to be compulsory.
Irish = Useful to a minority. A small amount of people in Ireland can speak Irish and a very small minority use it to communicate. Even less so than Polish. No clear reason for it to be compulsory. Better suited as an optional subject.

As for tangents, I refer you back to your post where you essentially said "Why are you all talking about Irish? Look at the other problems in the education system and leave Irish alone you big evil super-subjective Irish-haters."

Peanut

RadioClash wrote: »

Weak. You're inferring an answer from a question that was never posed in the poll. The question that you wanted was should Irish be replaced by any of x,y or z subjects as mandatory. Such a question was not posed, and If it was you may not get the answer you were looking for. I could equally infer that the poll suggests the respondents want more subjects to be compulsory instead of the current three.

You are correct that there was no preference given by the respondents to their choices, so we don't know what order they prefer, however it's perfectly reasonable to read that:

Given no specific limit on the number of mandatory subjects in a hypothetical LC, more people would prefer mandatory Geography compared to mandatory Irish.

RadioClash wrote: »

The results of the poll do show that a majority have no objection to mandatory Irish.

Incredible - you claim that I'm interpreting results and then come out with this?

The results show absolutely no such thing. The question was not "Which 3 subjects should be mandatory for the Leaving Cert.?".

RadioClash wrote: »

You need to look closer to home, 61% of respondents favour Irish as compulsory. I'm not going to explain basic statistics to you.

Not in the actual format of the Leaving Cert.

Is this really so difficult to understand?

Hint: The percentages should add up to 300% for your interpretation to be valid. They don't.

GaryIrv93

muineachan wrote: »

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

I am not killing myself, anyone else who speaks Irish killing themselves trying to speak it? I speak what I have very naturally with my family and friends who speak Irish, and I switch to English very easily. Someone with two languages knows it is very easy, it is not difficult or a struggle. My English is better than my Irish, but I fail to see the problem in becoming a truly bilingual country with Irish as one of the languages, it doesn't disadvantage you. In my opinion speaking the beautiful language of Irish is very important to the identity and culture of this country. And at the centre of it's revival is a compulsory Irish course which teaches people to speak it properly.

By the way I agree, English is very convenient, I'm glad I have it, it gets me by, but that doesn't mean I should stop speaking Irish, I am very proud of my Irish and enjoy speaking it.

If you can speak Irish well and actually use it to communicate outside of school then that's fine. I never said it wasn't. However the problem with having Irish as a compulsory subject that other people who do not have the same interest in it are still pushed into doing it anyway, even when they know they'll never need to use it. This is what creates all the resentment towards the policy of it's compulsion, not the language itself though. People just resent it because they're not given any choice, when they could be spending more time learning a subject which interests them. That's what I thought education was all about.

GaryIrv93

The education system also needs to put more of an emphasis on sports. Keeping students inside stuffy classrooms for hours and the more countless hours they spend inside dark rooms studying during typical sunny LC weather is a disgrace. Hardly surprising that so many kids are overweight.

murraykil

Irish is one of the oldest languages in Europe. I think that only Greek and Latin have older examples of literature than Irish. It's a pity that so many Irish have little or no interest in it.

GaryIrv93

murraykil wrote: »

Irish is one of the oldest languages in Europe. I think that only Greek and Latin have older examples of literature than Irish. It's a pity that so many Irish have little or no interest in it.

It's true, unfortunately, but times change. It's happens to everything at some time or other eventually.

rainbowtrout

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

The education system also needs to put more of an emphasis on sports. Keeping students inside stuffy classrooms for hours and the more countless hours they spend inside dark rooms studying during typical sunny LC weather is a disgrace. Hardly surprising that so many kids are overweight.

I agree that more time should be given to sport/PE in schools, maybe it will if it's brought in as a proper Junior Cert and Leaving Cert subject but it's not the reason kids are overweight. Most kids don't walk to school anymore, they eat way more junk food than 20 years ago and they spend less time playing on the street, out on bikes etc and more time in front of computer/tv/playstation etc.

Most of the parents that drop students off at my school drive into the car park and drop the kid off 5 feet from the door. God forbid they might have to walk 50m from the gate to the school door. Most of these live within a mile of the school and should have no problem walking to school.