Why must Irish be compulsory??

MyKeyG

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

A lot of knowledge is wasteful in the sense that it's irrelevant. Much of what school teaches is forgotten, and much of what's remembered is irrelevant - you may as well have not spent your school years ''learning'' it. School cirriculums need to be personality based and not so rote.

That was my point too. There's very little that you carry over from secondary to third level education and even less is carried over from secondary education to life!

I don't agree the curriculum should be more personal. How can you possibly know at 16/17 what you want? It's designed to give a broad introduction to the possibilities available to students in further education or employment. Sometimes this includes pursuing a career in Irish language and culture whether there are those who think it's practical or not!

DepoProvera

MyKeyG wrote: »

What an ignorant attitude. What the hell has having a love of the Irish language got to do with Nationalism? Now I think you're just fabricating reasons to argue your point and you're starting to look very silly in doing so!

I didn't say love of the language had to do with Nationalism, I said those who want it forced upon schoolchildren.

The only reason Irish was made compulsory in the beginning was to try to claw back some national identity. Their schemes have ultimately failed as it just caused hatred and resentment towards it.

As some have said earlier, if they had made optional classes etc allowing students to explore their heritage, language whatever, they probably would have received a better reaction

MyKeyG wrote: »

What wonders are these you speak of? I'm genuinely interested to know though I'm fairly sure you've no idea yourself

http://qmu.academia.edu/DavidMcGuire/Papers/636336/Why_Ireland_a_qualitative_review_of_the_factors_influencing_the_location_of_US_multinationals_in_Ireland_with_particular_reference_to_the_impact_of_labour_issues

"Both McGovern(1998) and Gunnigle (1997) argue that it was Ireland's unique ability to provide a cheap supply of graduate English-speaking labour, that has aided the IDA and other agencies in successfully attracting large-scale investment from multinational companies...

Moreover, the low level of foreign language proficiency among second and third level graduates has attracted unfavourable international comment(Kenny and Sheikh, 2000; OECD 1999). In light of the increasing role of foreign trade...the substantial decrease in the numbers of students taking foreign languages to the end of secondary education is a cause of concern.

It is a combination of these and certain other factors(especially location in the EU, English as first language)which were the primary drivers in the decision of respondent firms to locate in Ireland."

Seems to me that had we concentrated these 14 or so years into studying foreign languages, there would damn well be more students with 'foreign language proficiency'.

MyKeyG wrote: »

Bewildering? Really? At a time when we're paying bond holders? At a time when corrupt bankers and politicians are drawing massive bonus payments and pensions. You need to grow up a bit friend and sort your priorities!

Yes, because screaming "doze damm crook bankers" is a great point. Sure, money is being thrown about frivolously. That doesn't, however, negate the fact that it is a useless expenditure of money.

RadioClash

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

A lot of knowledge is wasteful in the sense that it's irrelevant. Much of what school teaches is forgotten, and much of what's remembered is irrelevant - you may as well have not spent your school years ''learning'' it. School cirriculums need to be personality based and not so rote.

My point is, just because you've decided it to be irrelevant(to yourself) doesn't make it so. You're making a subconscious choice what to internalize and what not to. That's fine, but remember that school and pedagogy's purpose is to increase your aptitude for further learning, both for those who choose to go into higher education, and for those who wish to make their way without it. It's a broad remit and it's constrained by the CAO system (which is the first area of Irish education in need of reform).

I agree with you on the rote nature of Irish education, but blame the points race not Irish. Remember the system in place isn't there to provide you with a tailor made education and have you instantly prepared for whatever career you wish to pursue, it has to serve a lot of different people with different needs. It's there to provide a foundation, and looking back I was glad of it. Take a look at public school systems in the States or UK and thank your lucky stars. We're not Finland yet, but we're ahead of our Anglo cousins certainly.

MyKeyG

DepoProvera wrote: »

I didn't say love of the language had to do with Nationalism, I said those who want it forced upon schoolchildren.

The only reason Irish was made compulsory in the beginning was to try to claw back some national identity. Their schemes have ultimately failed as it just caused hatred and resentment towards it.

Hatred? You are the first person on any thread I've seen concerning the Irish language that has used the word hatred! There are lots of subjects I did in school that were 'forced' upon me every one of them useless as far as practicality goes.

Moreover, the low level of foreign language proficiency among second and third level graduates has attracted unfavourable international comment(Kenny and Sheikh, 2000; OECD 1999). In light of the increasing role of foreign trade...the substantial decrease in the numbers of students taking foreign languages to the end of secondary education is a cause of concern.

It is a combination of these and certain other factors(especially location in the EU, English as first language)which were the primary drivers in the decision of respondent firms to locate in Ireland."

Seems to me that had we concentrated these 14 or so years into studying foreign languages, there would damn well be more students with 'foreign language proficiency'.

To what end? Didn't you say yourself the primary European language was English?

Yes, because screaming "doze damm crook bankers" is a great point. Sure, money is being thrown about frivolously. That doesn't, however, negate the fact that it is a useless expenditure of money.

Don't be so ridiculous. Of course comparing spending on corruption and spending on education is a valid point. What a dense attitude to take.

RadioClash

DepoProvera wrote: »

I didn't say love of the language had to do with Nationalism, I said those who want it forced upon schoolchildren.

The only reason Irish was made compulsory in the beginning was to try to claw back some national identity. Their schemes have ultimately failed as it just caused hatred and resentment towards it.

As some have said earlier, if they had made optional classes etc allowing students to explore their heritage, language whatever, they probably would have received a better reaction



http://qmu.academia.edu/DavidMcGuire/Papers/636336/Why_Ireland_a_qualitative_review_of_the_factors_influencing_the_location_of_US_multinationals_in_Ireland_with_particular_reference_to_the_impact_of_labour_issues

"Both McGovern(1998) and Gunnigle (1997) argue that it was Ireland's unique ability to provide a cheap supply of graduate English-speaking labour, that has aided the IDA and other agencies in successfully attracting large-scale investment from multinational companies...

Moreover, the low level of foreign language proficiency among second and third level graduates has attracted unfavourable international comment(Kenny and Sheikh, 2000; OECD 1999). In light of the increasing role of foreign trade...the substantial decrease in the numbers of students taking foreign languages to the end of secondary education is a cause of concern.

It is a combination of these and certain other factors(especially location in the EU, English as first language)which were the primary drivers in the decision of respondent firms to locate in Ireland."

Seems to me that had we concentrated these 14 or so years into studying foreign languages, there would damn well be more students with 'foreign language proficiency'.

Yes, because screaming "doze damm crook bankers" is a great point. Sure, money is being thrown about frivolously. That doesn't, however, negate the fact that it is a useless expenditure of money.

The bolded bit is what you should be looking at. This has nothing to do with Irish, and everything to do with(I'm calling it now) lazy students shying away from 'difficult' subjects. Same for low uptake of science subjects. You can blame Irish, but it's a strawman. Points, points, points.

More than any other subject, language learning requires students to take responsibility for their own learning. Blame the teacher, blame the school, blame the genitive case if you want, but if someone is bad at languages it's because they didn't put in the hard yards. And if students shy away from it, well, how can you blame Irish? And people harp on about putting Mandarin on the curriculum?

sombaht

I dont see why the gaelgoirs/DoE are so fearful of Irish becoming an optional subject. Do they truly believe the only way to foster a genuine interest in the language and to keep it alive is to force students to learn it day in day out for 14 years? Is that really the best approach they can come up with?
Have it compulsory throughout primary sure, but once you enter secondary it needs to be optional. If a student has a genuine interest in the language they will keep it on, if there is no interest there then fine let them choose another subject.
I'm sure every Irish teacher in the land would rather have a class of 10 students each of whom had a genuine interest and desire to learn than a class of 30 where two-thirds are day-dreaming the entire class away.
I would also change the structure of the course. I think more emphasis needs to be placed on spoken and written Irish so for the first 3 years of secondary Irish should be taught in a similar fashion as French/German is currently taught. Leave the prose/poetry/literature for the LC curriculum.

Cheers,
sombaht

GaryIrv93

MyKeyG wrote: »

That was my point too. There's very little that you carry over from secondary to third level education and even less is carried over from secondary education to life!

I don't agree the curriculum should be more personal. How can you possibly know at 16/17 what you want? It's designed to give a broad introduction to the possibilities available to students in further education or employment. Sometimes this includes pursuing a career in Irish language and culture whether there are those who think it's practical or not!

Sorry I should've said that what I meant about cirriculums being more personality based was that more optional subjects should be introduced. I don't think it's enough to just throw in Geography, History, Construction Studies (wood and metal), Economics, Accounting, Physics, Chemistry, Art... I hate having to study human and economic geography - I don't see how that's ''geography''. If you do geography for example, I'd want to decide what kind of geography I study - either Physical/Ecomomic, but not both.

More subjects such as ''Driving Skills'' should be introduced into the cirriculum with ''Mechanics''....They'd be useful for future skills that most of us will need. Even at only 16/17 you know what interests you and what doesn't.

randylonghorn

I don't know why, sombaht, tbh. Gàidhlig in Scotland isn't compulsory, has never been to my knowledge, and the position of the language there is certainly no worse than here ... and certainly, you don't meet so many people who have an outright hatred for it.

I would be inclined to make it compulsory for primary too, and *maybe* up to Junior, tho' I have reservations. It should be optional for LC though.

OR another approach would be to split it into two subjects at LC, Irish Language and Irish Literature, as they do with English in A-levels, and leave the first compulsory and the second optional ... it would in my view be at least a step in the right direction, though not in my view the absolute best way forward.

Ms.M wrote: »

The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students)

The reasons a lot of Irish kids hate it are (a) because it's forced down their throats, (b) because, yes, their parents have bad attitudes to it (because it was in turn forced down their throats) and (c) because even now many teachers of the language are below par and don't encourage or instill any love of the language in their students (though I would say I've seen *some* improvement in teaching standards over the last 10 years).

Ms.M wrote: »

Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!

Speaking of winning people over and encouraging a positive attitude in them, no offense, but for a teacher you're doing a very bad job!

You're talking mainly in this forum to youngsters actually doing the LC, and your best option is to tell them that they're not entitled to an opinion?

This is exactly the attitude which has done so much damage over the years ... "ah sure, they're a captive audience, tell them to STFU and like it. And sure throw a few references to Pearse and 1916 in too, and remind them that it's their 'patriotic duty' to learn Irish while you're at it!"

The net result is generations turned off the language and Irish culture more generally to boot! >.<

GaryIrv93

RadioClash wrote: »

My point is, just because you've decided it to be irrelevant(to yourself) doesn't make it so. You're making a subconscious choice what to internalize and what not to. That's fine, but remember that school and pedagogy's purpose is to increase your aptitude for further learning, both for those who choose to go into higher education, and for those who wish to make their way without it. It's a broad remit and it's constrained by the CAO system (which is the first area of Irish education in need of reform).

I agree with you on the rote nature of Irish education, but blame the points race not Irish. Remember the system in place isn't there to provide you with a tailor made education and have you instantly prepared for whatever career you wish to pursue, it has to serve a lot of different people with different needs. It's there to provide a foundation, and looking back I was glad of it. Take a look at public school systems in the States or UK and thank your lucky stars. We're not Finland yet, but we're ahead of our Anglo cousins certainly.

Well I never really said it was irrelevant to everyone else - I have no problem with people studying what they want to study, and respect that everyone has different personalities. But yeah, you're right there what you've said.

I'm amazed that the rest of the world, especially Ireland hasn't copped on and adopted Finland's education system.

Peanut

RadioClash wrote: »

No such thing as wasteful knowledge. Even Latin.

True, but there is such thing as wasteful time, and there are only finite resources available in terms of student's and teacher's availability to study and teach.

RadioClash wrote: »

Compulsion and being compelled to study certain things is inherent to almost every education system in the world. Every student enjoys certain subjects more than others, but you shouldn't tell kids down tools if they(or you) think it's useless, in school or life in general. That's an attitude that's pervasive in certain sectors of Irish society and it leads to social problems.

Of course you should tell them to down tools if it's not to their benefit. Unless your aim is to raise a complacent, ignorant population. You mention social problems, but many of our social problems arose from the very fact that people didn't question the status quo. I don't think there's any need to give examples.

RadioClash wrote: »

I'm not arguing that Irish is more economically beneficial than German or Mandarin, it's blatantly not. But I'd loathe to see an education system in this country dictated by IBEC or others ran on a cold economic benefit basis.

I agree, I don't think education should be based purely on economic arguments, but having a reasonable and fair curriculum doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be dictated by business interests. I don't think compulsory Irish can even be defended under a social benefit argument, if you want to remove all mention of economics.

RadioClash wrote: »

*off to dance with comely maidens at the crossroads with the ghost of Eamon DeValera*

Canard

I love languages and find them easy to learn, so I like doing Irish in school. But I completely agree that it's useless. I like that it's unique - if you ever travel somewhere I'm sure people would be impressed - but from a practical point of view, I'm just going to admit that I think its pointless. Yeah we need people to translate documents etc, only because we keep flogging that dead horse. Its never going to be the day-to-day language of Ireland.

But what I really dont understand is why the government dont take the most obvious step in my opinion and, not dumb it down, but the exam is a bit OTT imo. I can speak Irish just fine and write essays, but learning about awful poetry and stories is so boring. An Triail is great but it's ruined by the exam.

If they made the exam the same level as, say, French, people would be much more able for it and since people enjoy subjects they do well in (for the most part) it'd improve its popularity. If it was an optional subject it'd be unfair - it's definitely one of the hardest subjects to do at HL, they expect far too high a standard.

If people dont want to learn it theyre not going to suddenly love it after being force-fed it. I think its nice to have something unique but honestly, its not any kind of leisurely learning about your heritage, it's a ridiculously high standard of Irish expected through mundane poems and seriously, the picture sequences. 20 of them? No wonder people hate Irish ffs.

I haven't read all the posts in the thread, and I dont want to:) so dont lose the head if someone has already stated the same opinion on the matter.

All subjects are pointless for someone.
for example, Basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division is enough for most people so learning leaving cert maths is pointless for them. however, people like me enjoy maths and I don't see it as a subject thats compulsory

Irish, seems to pointless to a VERY large percentage of people, including me. wont need it in life and all I want to leave school with in Irish is a very basic understanding of Irish grammar and be able to hold a conversation. I don't want to know why some depressed poet wrote a poem about the old wall in the garden

Geography, I see as very useful, to me anyway. Geography is whats happening around us IN TODAYS WORLD and not having a basic understanding of how the planet on which we live on operates, even though it's not necessary, is just criminal.(unlike history, which is utter pointless imo as I don't care about the past)

3 science's, same points as geography can apply

Religion, i wont even go there:cool:

English: ehhhhh...well, I'm in TY now, and I believe I have built up a big enough vocabulary and have a good enough grasp to last me for my life.

Business, Economics, French, German, etc: Are extremely invaluable to some people, and worthless to others.

I really think some sort of IT subject should be introduced. To think that some students spend six years in secondary school and have no computer classes then go on and complete a 4 year degree in some sort of IT related course is just stupid. (i know some schools do ecdl, but thats pretty useless it self for people that already know the stuff.)


My opinion on the education system: It's a messed up system when you stand back and look at it. The points race is just dementing for students and the amount of time wasted is ridiculous.

Peanut

Deleted User wrote: »

I really think some sort of IT subject should be introduced. To think that some students spend six years in secondary school and have no computer classes then go on and complete a 4 year degree in some sort of IT related course is just stupid. (i know some schools do ecdl, but thats pretty useless it self for people that already know the stuff.)

I think there is a Technology subject introduced 4 years ago, no idea how widely available it is.

What frustrates me is that many posts on these threads constantly assume that the teaching of a compulsory subject is a zero-cost exercise.

It's absolutely not - imagine what could be done with those hours of teaching, study, homework + exams instead. There is a very real cost to this, and not just purely economic.

As Google's CEO put it, "I was flabbergasted to learn that today computer science isn’t even taught as standard in UK schools."

I wonder what he would have to say about the Irish education system.

Canard

Peanut wrote: »

I think there is a Technology subject introduced 4 years ago, no idea how widely available it is.

What frustrates me is that posts on these threads constantly assume that the teaching of a compulsory subject is a zero-cost exercise.

It's absolutely not - imagine what could be done with those hours of teaching, study, homework + exams instead. There is a very real cost to this, and not just purely economic.

As Google's CEO put it, "I was flabbergasted to learn that today computer science isn’t even taught as standard in UK schools."

I wonder what he would have to say about the Irish education system.

Well, technology and engineering are subjects you can do, and DCG isnt too far off that either. Would there be a practical way to examine computer science though?

Peanut

Patchy~ wrote: »

Well, technology and engineering are subjects you can do, and DCG isnt too far off that either. Would there be a practical way to examine computer science though?

There should be, if it can be examined at 3rd level, I don't see why not, apart from political willpower and finding enough qualified staff.

jack.h

Personally I think Irish is a dead language and for me has been a complete waste of time.
I have been "learning" it for around 14 years and still cannot converse at
all in it. It was poorly thought in my primary school and as a result I have always been bad at it. This has lead to me hating Irish with a passion, especially because I need to waste my time doing pass Irish so I can get into my maths and physics course in college.
It's not even that I am particularly bad at languages as I have been learning French(a language which actually might help me in my future) for the past 5 years and am far better at it than Irish.
And for all those people who say we should learn it to preserve our culture and heritage I think they should be able to respect my choice, no my right to choose to abstain from learning the Irish language.
I don't mind if other people want to learn Irish (as is their right which I respect) but I think it is very unfair that I should be forced to need to pass this subject for me to get my course as i will never use Irish after my leaving cert. As well it would not hurt for them to add in some optimistic poems into the course rather than just poems about Divorce, Entrapment and stories about people getting shot.(the same is true for English a little optimism never hurt anyone)

Dwellingdweller

DepoProvera wrote: »

Irish is simply useless. It has literally no practical or intellectual applications. It's a poorly structured, horrible sounding language.

A-what now? Who the f**k said that you get to say whether a language is structured well or sounds nice? Sounds to me like you're just so enamored by the English language that the Irish language looks "poorly structured" and "sounds horrible" to you. Seriously. You could just as easily say "Chinese is a poorly structured, horrible sounding language", or "Polish is a poorly structured, horrible sounding language", or - blablabla. You get my point, language is subjective and to say one language is objectively "poorly structured" or "sounds horrible" is just about the height of ignorance.

DepoProvera

Dwellingdweller wrote: »

A-what now? Who the f**k said that you get to say whether a language is structured well or sounds nice? Sounds to me like you're just so enamored by the English language that the Irish language looks "poorly structured" and "sounds horrible" to you. Seriously. You could just as easily say "Chinese is a poorly structured, horrible sounding language", or "Polish is a poorly structured, horrible sounding language", or - blablabla. You get my point, language is subjective and to say one language is objectively "poorly structured" or "sounds horrible" is just about the height of ignorance.

Point taken, you're right. I can't objectively say that.

randylonghorn

Can we keep the level of the discussion civil, please?

In fairness, it has been *mainly* civil, but it's scuffed the line a few times.

GaryIrv93

Students who resent being force-fed Irish should simply refuse to do it. - Don't turn up at classes, form protest marches, demanding that your right to speak your own language be respected. Sign petitions to remove it as a compulsory subject. :pac:

RadioClash

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Students who resent being force-fed Irish should simply refuse to do it. - Don't turn up at classes, form protest marches, demanding that your right to speak your own language be respected. Sign petitions to remove it as a compulsory subject. :pac:

I see you're having a Lord of the Flies moment there. No one is taking away your right to speak English or any other language.

Education policy isn't dictated or indeed changed by secondary students throwing a tantrum en masse. What happens if you get your way and then some bright spark thinks he's having his human rights infringed by having to do Math's?

And for the record most Irish Uni's (all?) require you to have done English, Irish or another language as well as Math's in the Leaving to matriculate (even if you want to do a basket weaving course). Are your human rights being infringed by this force feeding, this disgraceful compulsion?

Are you going to go banging on your lecturers door in Uni because you don't like the content of some compulsory modules you have to do?

Stick it to the man.

Fuinseog

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Hi,
The same question's been going through my head for god knows how long, and I know threads about this issue have been stated many times before: Why on earth must Irish be compulsory for the Leaving Cert? Why force students to ''learn'' a language that is of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway? Why is the government wasting so much money on having Irish as a compulsory subject when they could: either give students the option to learn it of their own free will, and save money, or introduce a more useful subject? It's ridiculous,
Opinions?

(Now I'm not attacking the langauge in any way, just the way it's currently taught and also it's compulsion for the LC)

why do students have to learn English, we can speak it so whats the point?
why is maths compulsory? unless you do engineering you will get more use out of Irish than you will out of the theorems of pytagorus.


its a hertiage thing to remind us where we come from, which is not California like some folk in this country would like to believe.

sombaht

Fuinseog wrote: »

why do students have to learn English, we can speak it so whats the point?

Well English is our day to day language, used in our daily lives, conducting business etc. I wouldn't mind seeing the curriculum split however with prose/novels being removed perhaps into a seperate subject (English Lit) and more of a focus on grammar/spelling A quick scan through some of the post here only heightens the fact that our standard of English, both spoken and written is quite poor.

Fuinseog wrote: »

why is maths compulsory? unless you do engineering you will get more use out of Irish than you will out of the theorems of pytagorus.

You'll get a lot more use out of maths regardless of the course you attend in Uni. Maths teaches basic logic and problem solving and is applicable in everyday life.

Fuinseog wrote: »

its a hertiage thing to remind us where we come from, which is not California like some folk in this country would like to believe.

Again if people wish to learn about that heritage let them make the choice, in the same way to make a choice to learn Chemistry or German or Technical Graphics.
Make it optional and you will get a true reflection of the number of people GENUINELY interested in the language. I think this is what scares gaelgoirs most of all.

Cheers,
sombaht

RadioClash

sombaht wrote: »

Make it optional and you will get a true reflection of the number of people GENUINELY interested in the language. I think this is what scares gaelgoirs most of all.

Cheers,
sombaht

Not scared of it. I just think it's a damn shame that people heap abuse on one particular subject and create a profoundly anti-intellectual learning philosophy around it in order to do so(not talking about yourself by the way, you're being quite measured). From cranky parents with bad memories of their stern National school teacher, to students who hoover this up and bring it school with them thinking they were the first in the world to think of this. They're creating a hysterical negative feedback loop about the language to be honest.

EDIT: Not to mention bored hacks in certain newspapers (not without their own cultural axes to grind) using it as copy filler.

ALL knowledge is useful if you embrace it, it feeds into your aptitude to do other things and observe and process the world around you.

Conversely ALL knowledge and all forms of learning in all sorts of disciplines are useless if you deem them to be so. To reject anything that enhances and improves oneself and for other people to encourage them to do so is the mark of a person with a poor attitude to learning.

For my money the Irish language provides us with a unique world view, which only Irish people have, and yes I think we have a duty to protect this priceless cultural asset as a people, even in the face of students who think it interferes with their points race. The system shouldn't be about providing you with the easiest way to college at the expense of a broad knowledge base.

The CAO system encourages students to take the path of least resistance, and if the modest compulsion to do certain subjects was taken away, a lot of students would be taking what they perceive to be 'easy' subjects; not just Irish. Say goodbye Applied Math's, Physics, Irish and other languages - Say hello rote learning of Religion, History, Geography etc. That's the nature of the points race, and it would be a bad road to go down. Broad education is the name of the game, not students choosing what suits them to get into Uni easier.

Irish isn't easy, but hey, neither is life.

rainbowtrout

Deleted User wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts in the thread, and I dont want to:) so dont lose the head if someone has already stated the same opinion on the matter.

All subjects are pointless for someone.
for example, Basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division is enough for most people so learning leaving cert maths is pointless for them. however, people like me enjoy maths and I don't see it as a subject thats compulsory

Irish, seems to pointless to a VERY large percentage of people, including me. wont need it in life and all I want to leave school with in Irish is a very basic understanding of Irish grammar and be able to hold a conversation. I don't want to know why some depressed poet wrote a poem about the old wall in the garden

Geography, I see as very useful, to me anyway. Geography is whats happening around us IN TODAYS WORLD and not having a basic understanding of how the planet on which we live on operates, even though it's not necessary, is just criminal.(unlike history, which is utter pointless imo as I don't care about the past)

3 science's, same points as geography can apply

Religion, i wont even go there:cool:

English: ehhhhh...well, I'm in TY now, and I believe I have built up a big enough vocabulary and have a good enough grasp to last me for my life.

Business, Economics, French, German, etc: Are extremely invaluable to some people, and worthless to others.

I really think some sort of IT subject should be introduced. To think that some students spend six years in secondary school and have no computer classes then go on and complete a 4 year degree in some sort of IT related course is just stupid. (i know some schools do ecdl, but thats pretty useless it self for people that already know the stuff.)


My opinion on the education system: It's a messed up system when you stand back and look at it. The points race is just dementing for students and the amount of time wasted is ridiculous.

Wow, just wow is all I can say at the level of ignorance displayed in this post.


Many people go far beyond basic arithmetic in their daily lives. Percentages, ratios, simple and compound interest are just some basic mathematical concepts that people encouter with their credit cards, bank accounts and mortgages. If third years, of whom many are making subject choices around about now, were to be told you don't have to do maths for LC, many would drop it like a hot potato, only to have a hissy fit when filling in their CAO forms when they find that it's a requirement to all business, computer science, engineering, technology, construction and science courses. But hey if you had always planned on doing English and History it shouldn't be a problem.

Which brings me onto your point about History... if you don't know anything about the past how can you prevent people making mistakes in the future? Or have reasons for your beliefs?

While I'm not a fan of the Irish syllabus as it currently stands, and I wasn't when I did my Leaving Cert, I still think a syllabus should challenge you. There's no point only teaching the basics in any subject. If that's the case, why didn't you just finish school at 12 and go working? According to your logic, you could speak English, and you would have enough basic arithmetic to get you through life, why do anything more? If you only teach the basics, you appeal to the lowest common denominator. People will learn as little as they can get away with, so by simplifying courses you restrict what people will learn. If you only teach the basics there will always be a cohort that will learn less than the basics, so to keep a reasonable standard of education you have to go beyond this.

English: you may have enough to get by now, and indeed you may have enough to get through life according to yourself, but you may find that as you limit yourself by not exposing yourself to books, articles etc that are aimed at a reading age beyond the level of a TY student that you struggle to understand them because your vocabulary is limited.

I see students all the time that have a shocking level of English, and don't understand the meaning of what I would say are basic everyday words, mainly because they don't read much outside from their text books and the comments posted on their facebook pages.

But if 'OMG, like that was awesome' gets you through life, happy days.

Peanut wrote: »

I think there is a Technology subject introduced 4 years ago, no idea how widely available it is.

What frustrates me is that many posts on these threads constantly assume that the teaching of a compulsory subject is a zero-cost exercise.

It's absolutely not - imagine what could be done with those hours of teaching, study, homework + exams instead. There is a very real cost to this, and not just purely economic.

As Google's CEO put it, "I was flabbergasted to learn that today computer science isn’t even taught as standard in UK schools."

I wonder what he would have to say about the Irish education system.

There hasn't been a huge take up of Technology, but that could be for a few reasons.

Technology has existed for years as a Junior Cert subject, but is not very popular or widely available, so it's likely that Technology is mainly offered in schools that offer this subject.

Technology would generally be taught by Construction or Engineering teachers, so again if a school doesn't offer these subjects, it's not going to offer Technology.

If a school does offer these subjects to introduce a fourth subject (Construction, Engineering, DCG being the other three) in this area could be detrimental to the subject choice in some schools with one of the others going by the wayside, i.e. because so many colleges require a language students are unlikely to take all four subjects in this area and dividing the cohort over 4 subjects may mean it's not feasible to offer one of them due to low numbers.

Recession and cutbacks: With reduced staffing levels in schools, some schools are being forced to drop subjects with low uptake at Leaving Cert, it was reported in the news only yesterday. Subjects like chemistry, accounting and economics are in danger in some schools. As schools are dropping subjects, or trying to hang on to the ones they currently offer, most simply aren't in a position to offer a new subject on top of what they already have.

Patchy~ wrote: »

Well, technology and engineering are subjects you can do, and DCG isnt too far off that either. Would there be a practical way to examine computer science though?

Yes. It could very easily be done. Music Technology is already tested on computer. From what I gather from the music teacher in my school, students have to write a piece of music using some technology software and make changes to a piece. Software for computer programming is readily available. There's no reason why an exam in this area couldn't follow the music model.

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Students who resent being force-fed Irish should simply refuse to do it. - Don't turn up at classes, form protest marches, demanding that your right to speak your own language be respected. Sign petitions to remove it as a compulsory subject. :pac:

Home schooling is that direction ---->

You are not obliged to attend secondary school, or primary school for that matter. If you choose to do so, you are obliged to attend Irish classes, unless you have an exemption. If you don't like the policies of the school you enrolled in and agreed to when you enrolled, let your parents educate you at home.

Irish is our own language by the way, English is not our own language, but we have adopted it as one of the official languages of this country.

Peanut

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There hasn't been a huge take up of Technology, but that could be for a few reasons.

Technology has existed for years as a Junior Cert subject, but is not very popular or widely available, so it's likely that Technology is mainly offered in schools that offer this subject.

Technology would generally be taught by Construction or Engineering teachers, so again if a school doesn't offer these subjects, it's not going to offer Technology.

And I think this is the reason for the low takeup, a quick look at the syllabus shows it's construcion studies heritage. Not really what would be suitable for a more general comp. sci subject.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Recession and cutbacks: With reduced staffing levels in schools, some schools are being forced to drop subjects with low uptake at Leaving Cert, it was reported in the news only yesterday. Subjects like chemistry, accounting and economics are in danger in some schools.

I read that a few days. It's utter craziness at this time to be dropping subjects like physics and economics while comp. Irish remains untouched due to priveleged status.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Irish is our own language by the way, English is not our own language, but we have adopted it as one of the official languages of this country.

Cultures change over time, Irish was not the language of the previous inhabitants of this island either.

Stark

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Home schooling is that direction ---->

You are not obliged to attend secondary school, or primary school for that matter. If you choose to do so, you are obliged to attend Irish classes, unless you have an exemption. If you don't like the policies of the school you enrolled in and agreed to when you enrolled, let your parents educate you at home.

You still have to follow the State curriculum even if you're being home schooled.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Irish is our own language by the way, English is not our own language, but we have adopted it as one of the official languages of this country.

Then why do most Irish people speak English if it's "not their language"?

RadioClash

Stark wrote: »

You still have to follow the State curriculum even if you're being home schooled.

http://www.schooldays.ie/articles/home-education

Not so. See the the third paragraph down.

'Families are free to follow the national curriculum, devise one of their own, or not follow a curriculum at all'

Fuinseog

laoch na mona wrote: »

its a vital part of our culture and the state is trying to preserve it

the state is promoting the language with one hand and destroying it with the other.

BTW the language is not in a state of preservation. for those who speak it its a language like any other that is in a constant state of change.

this is something of a never ending debate. within the next few months someone is going to write a letter to the indo or sindo saying what a waste Irish is. then folks will write in defending it. happens every few months.

irish is definitely more spoken about than spoken. we cannot decide whether to embrace it or cast it off and the majority of folks seem to go for a compromise of the two.

Fuinseog

sombaht wrote: »

Well English is our day to day language, used in our daily lives, conducting business etc. I wouldn't mind seeing the curriculum split however with prose/novels being removed perhaps into a seperate subject (English Lit) and more of a focus on grammar/spelling A quick scan through some of the post here only heightens the fact that our standard of English, both spoken and written is quite poor.


You'll get a lot more use out of maths regardless of the course you attend in Uni. Maths teaches basic logic and problem solving and is applicable in everyday life.


Again if people wish to learn about that heritage let them make the choice, in the same way to make a choice to learn Chemistry or German or Technical Graphics.
Make it optional and you will get a true reflection of the number of people GENUINELY interested in the language. I think this is what scares gaelgoirs most of all.

Cheers,
sombaht

strange that you mention German.its one of the subjects schools will be dropping, which is stupid as the German Economy is strong and it may be a place where we go looking for work.