CADETSHIPS 2012

KickstartHeart

I must say giving someone a higher chance of getting a place as a leader in an operational military simply because they can speak a language that will never, ever, be used on operations, seams to me to be, illogical, unfair, and counter productive in picking the best candidates for a cadet class.


But I'm in no position to say that it IS unfair etc. There's more than likely decent logic behind it.

I suppose its important to take into account that anyone who makes it to the last 100 of a cadetship competition is definitely capable of completing a cadetship and becomming an army officer. So they're not exactly losing out on good blood by giving those who speak Irish an advantage. They're still getting the kind of candidate that they're looking for.

Interesting debate that is :P

paky

i think its discriminatory at the least.

Tybalt

If you were to do the Irish language interview and fail, do you fail the competition or do you continue if good enough and just not get the 6% on your final mark after the main interview?

Tybalt

paky wrote: »

i think its discriminatory at the least.

I wouldn't see it as discriminatory since it is the national and first language of the state, and is taught in schools from an early age. But I do see how there may not be a direct link from showing proficiency in speaking Irish to being a good officer and how it will probably be of little or no use on operations.
I'd see the bonus marks as being something for the candidates finishing up in school who lack PDF/RDF experience, maturity/life experience or a degree, and most of those candidates finishing school would have been doing Irish interviews anyway for their leaving certificate.
I'd like to try do the Irish interview if I was to make it that far in the competition as I am not finished college yet, but I am not near fluent. :pac:

KickstartHeart

Tybalt wrote: »

If you were to do the Irish language interview and fail, do you fail the competition or do you continue if good enough and just not get the 6% on your final mark after the main interview?

The interview is pass/fail, but if you pass, that doesn't mean you'l go through to medicals. They just take the top number (depends on how many places on offer) of the people that passed to go through to medicals.

That's why it annoys me when people say they did an interview, didn't get through to the next stage, and that they're p***ed off because they seam to take it that they Army says they're not good enough.
That's not the case. If they passed the interview they are good enough. But obviously the Army will only take the top highest scorers.

I passed an interview before but wasn't in the top number to be taken to medicals. I don't hold a grudge. If you go for it and they don't take you, don't hold one either, because its not because your'e not good enough, its because there were a few people that just managed to show that they had the tiniest bit more potential to become an army officer than yourself. Thats the way I see it anyway

So to answer your question, if you don't get past the interview, your'e out. So there's no way of carrying on to the next stage without being in the top scorers on the interview. So because you don't go through to the next stage, your bonus from doing the Irish interview doesn't carry on either (obviously because your'e out ). The bonuses they offer are for your interview score, not your over all competition score.

Hope that helps bud!

Tybalt

KickstartHeart wrote: »

The interview is pass/fail, but if you pass, that doesn't mean you'l go through to medicals. They just take the top number (depends on how many places on offer) of the people that passed to go through to medicals.

That's why it annoys me when people say they did an interview, didn't get through to the next stage, and that they're p***ed off because they seam to take it that they Army says they're not good enough.
That's not the case. If they passed the interview they are good enough. But obviously the Army will only take the top highest scorers.

I passed an interview before but wasn't in the top number to be taken to medicals. I don't hold a grudge. If you go for it and they don't take you, don't hold one either, because its not because your'e not good enough, its because there were a few people that just managed to show that they had the tiniest bit more potential to become an army officer than yourself. Thats the way I see it anyway

So to answer your question, if you don't get past the interview, your'e out. So there's no way of carrying on to the next stage without being in the top scorers on the interview. So because you don't go through to the next stage, your bonus from doing the Irish interview doesn't carry on either (obviously because your'e out ). The bonuses they offer are for your interview score, not your over all competition score.

Hope that helps bud!

Thanks, I was more wondering if not showing enough proficiency in Irish if you choose to do an Irish interview would eliminate you from progressing in the competition. I thought the Irish interview was an additional interview to the main one. eg. The main interview would be the same for all candidates, then anyone who wanted to try get the 6% bonus would do an extra interview in Irish, much like the Leaving Certificate oral exam for Irish.

Turbine

KickstartHeart wrote: »

I must say giving someone a higher chance of getting a place as a leader in an operational military simply because they can speak a language that will never, ever, be used on operations, seams to me to be, illogical, unfair, and counter productive in picking the best candidates for a cadet class.

How so when all commands are given as Gaeilge?

KickstartHeart

Turbine wrote: »

How so when all commands are given as Gaeilge?

The commands that are given in Irish are in drill only. Not actual important commands in operations or exercises. If a section commander is telling his troops where the final assault line is during an attack he doesn't say it in Irish, he says it in the language that his troops actually speak. (Unlikely that he/she will have a section of fluent Irish speakers)

If you notice, in most armies, the orders don't even sound like words of any language in drill. All soldiers can work with Irish drill and not know the language. If you ask a soldier, what does 'shocracht' mean, he'll probably say, 'I don't know it sounds like Arabic'. It actually means stand at ease, and is pronounced something along the lines of 'SHEEK RAWSH!' depending on your accent.

You don't actually need to be able to translate the orders to know what your'e being told to do.

In the British forces, even left, right, left, right, left right sounds more like 'HIFF HEIGHT HIFF HEIGHT HIFF HEIGHT!!'.

Trust me, being able to speak the language that the drill orders are given in won't make you in any way a better candidate than someone else. For two reasons. One, most people can't even speak Irish, and get on just fine on the drill square. Two, because the commands don't even sound like Irish (or any language actually), or in anyway how they're actually spelt or would be pronounced even if you were speaking Irish.

Have a look here; http://www.housemcfionn.com/files/CommandsShortList.pdf

Knowing the language that the drill commands are kind of losely based on when it boils down to how they're given, will most definitely not make you a better candidate than someone who has better leadership skills and experience.

EDIT: Firing range orders are given in Irish too, but these too are things you are taught. They are simple little phrases like 'Loadáil' and 'De-lodáil'. The kind of things a primary school student would understand. Knowing it before you go into the Army won't make you any better a potential leader.

KickstartHeart

Tybalt wrote: »

Thanks, I was more wondering if not showing enough proficiency in Irish if you choose to do an Irish interview would eliminate you from progressing in the competition. I thought the Irish interview was an additional interview to the main one. eg. The main interview would be the same for all candidates, then anyone who wanted to try get the 6% bonus would do an extra interview in Irish, much like the Leaving Certificate oral exam for Irish.

Nope, you do the normal interview or the Irish one. The Irish one isn't something you do as well as the other interview. Perhaps it should be, because the normal interview definitely probes more into your experience in the areas of competence that army officers should have. You should have to prove yourself as just as good a candidate as everyone else before getting your bonus for being able to speak a language that is poorly taught in schools and people from different areas grow up speaking and the rest of us don't. Its not discrimination, but its not actually very fair.

Capt Blackadder

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Nope, you do the normal interview or the Irish one. The Irish one isn't something you do as well as the other interview. Perhaps it should be, because the normal interview definitely probes more into your experience in the areas of competence that army officers should have. You should have to prove yourself as just as good a candidate as everyone else before getting your bonus for being able to speak a language that is poorly taught in schools and people from different areas grow up speaking and the rest of us don't. Its not discrimination, but its not actually very fair.

You do the normal interview, and if you chose to do so, you do an Irish language proficiency interview. All it does is assess your standard of Irish. Pass or fail. 6% extra or nothing. Simple as.

KickstartHeart

Capt Blackadder wrote: »

You do the normal interview, and if you chose to do so, you do an Irish language proficiency interview. All it does is assess your standard of Irish. Pass or fail. 6% extra or nothing. Simple as.

So do people who do the Irish interview have to do the normal one too?

Tybalt

Capt Blackadder wrote: »

You do the normal interview, and if you chose to do so, you do an Irish language proficiency interview. All it does is assess your standard of Irish. Pass or fail. 6% extra or nothing. Simple as.

Thanks, that's what I thought

KickstartHeart

I WAS WRONG!

"Candidates who wish to have their capability to communicate effectively in
both Irish and English taken into account may undergo a separate oral test in
the language in which the final interview is not conducted. In determining the
order of merit, a bonus of 6% of the total marks at the final interview will be
awarded to candidates who have shown themselves to be proficient in both
Irish and English."

That's from the cadetship booklet. I had spoken to people that did the normal interview and they told me that candidates who wanted to do the Irish one did an easier interview in Irish ONLY.

So all that I said about it in my previous posts was totally wrong. Apologies about that. I should have based my posts on decent info rather than peoples interpretations of what went on when they tried interviews.

Sorry about that lads!, and Capt Blackadder, thanks for pointing out that I was wrong because I could have put people way off track!

Sorry again!

Capt Blackadder

On the morning following your fitness test, when you're getting your final brief beofre you leave, you're asked what dates you definitely cannot do an interview on, and if you still want to do the Irish interview. They can't have 2 separate boards sitting(Irish and English speaking), insofar as there'd be less consistency of candidate selection between 2 boards than just the one.

On that note, this ain't gospel. It's just my own experience of the competition. For the gospel, no doubt, definitely the right information answer, get in contact with competitions section. They're friendly and helpful.

Capt Blackadder

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Sorry about that lads!, and Capt Blackadder, thanks for pointing out that I was wrong because I could have put people way off track!

Sorry again!

Wasn't my intention. I may be a cnut, but I'm not a pedantic cnut. Again, if there's anything you're not sure of, ring competitions. There's no such thing as a stupid question, only the stupid git who never asked.

KickstartHeart

Capt Blackadder wrote: »

Wasn't my intention. I may be a cnut, but I'm not a pedantic cnut. Again, if there's anything you're not sure of, ring competitions. There's no such thing as a stupid question, only the stupid git who never asked.

True. Thanks mate.

EDIT: True about the stupid question part, not the cnut part.
Thanks again.

Turbine

KickstartHeart wrote: »

The commands that are given in Irish are in drill only. Not actual important commands in operations or exercises. If a section commander is telling his troops where the final assault line is during an attack he doesn't say it in Irish, he says it in the language that his troops actually speak. (Unlikely that he/she will have a section of fluent Irish speakers)

I think you need to come down off your high horse a bit. Drills are a huge part of your training, so to say drill commands aren't important is bullsh*t. Irish is actually a module done as part of your training because of the fact that all drill commands are given as Gaeilge. I'm not going to say whether or not there should be bonus points for being fluent in it, but it helps when it comes to getting a grasp of the commands, and it'll be something that gives you an edge when it comes down to the wire at the interview stage.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

If you notice, in most armies, the orders don't even sound like words of any language in drill. All soldiers can work with Irish drill and not know the language. If you ask a soldier, what does 'shocracht' mean, he'll probably say, 'I don't know it sounds like Arabic'. It actually means stand at ease, and is pronounced something along the lines of 'SHEEK RAWSH!' depending on your accent.

You're thinking of 2 completely different commands. The first one you mention is 'Ar Socracht' [AIR-HUCK-RUCT] which means at ease, which means you can move any part of your body except your feet and is usually given when the commanding officer wants you looking at them while they're speaking.

The second command you mentioned (SHEEK RAWSH) is actually 'Seasáig ar Áis' [SHASIG-AIR-AWSH] which means stand at ease, which is given after coming to attention and involves crossing your hands behind your back and spreading your feet about 12 inches apart.

While you're right in that you don't need to know the exact word or meaning of every word of every command, you do need to know the jist of it. So for example, you need to know the difference between the command for a half left turn, a quarter left turn, and a full left turn etc.

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Trust me, being able to speak the language that the drill orders are given in won't make you in any way a better candidate than someone else. For two reasons. One, most people can't even speak Irish, and get on just fine on the drill square. Two, because the commands don't even sound like Irish (or any language actually), or in anyway how they're actually spelt or would be pronounced even if you were speaking Irish.

From my own experience, they do actually. Each officer will have their own 'twist' in how they pronounce it, but its the same sound every time and if you have any grasp of Irish, it'll definitely help you in picking up the commands.

Also FWIW, this whole 'debate' around awarding points for doing your interview as Gaeilge was started by yet another politics forum regular who clearly got lost when he wandered into this topic (maybe someone should fix the signs at the entrance?). I think if people have a chip on their shoulder against the Irish language, they should take it to the politics forum and discuss it there.

Capt Blackadder

No hassle. Can't wait for it all to start again. In real life and on here. I'm looking forward to the fashion at the Psychometric Test discussion to get going again. I wonder is a certain Private2bCadet still knocking about...?

KickstartHeart

Turbine wrote: »

I think you need to come down off your high horse a bit. Drills are a huge part of your training, so to say drill commands aren't important is bullsh*t. Irish is actually a module done as part of your training because of the fact that all drill commands are given as Gaeilge. I'm not going to say whether or not there should be bonus points for being fluent in it, but it helps when it comes to getting a grasp of the commands, and it'll be something that gives you an edge when it comes down to the wire at the interview stage.



You're thinking of 2 completely different commands. The first one you mention is 'Ar Socracht' [AIR-HUCK-RUCT] which means at ease, which means you can move any part of your body except your feet and is usually given when the commanding officer wants you looking at them while they're speaking.

The second command you mentioned (SHEEK RAWSH) is actually 'Seasáig ar Áis' [SHASIG-AIR-AWSH] which means stand at ease, which is given after coming to attention and involves crossing your arms behind your back and spreading your feet about 12 inches apart.

While you're right in that you don't need to know the exact word or meaning of every word of every command, you do need to know the jist of it. So for example, you need to know the difference between the command for a half left turn, a quarter left turn, and a full left turn etc.



From my own experience, they do actually. Each officer will have their own 'twist' in how they pronounce it, but its the same sound every time and if you have any grasp of Irish, it'll definitely help you in picking up the commands.

Also FWIW, this whole 'debate' around awarding points for doing your interview as Gaeilge was started by a regular politics forum poster who clearly got lost when he wandered into this topic (maybe someone should fix the signs at the entrance?). I think if people have a chip on their shoulder against the Irish language, they should take it to the politics forum and discuss it there.

Ah I see. I always read the sheet with the commands on it and thought that Shocracht was the stand at ease command. That's why I was assuming that the commands don't sound at all like what they are said like.

Just to point out too, I completely understand the importance of drill, and its purpose. Its there for a reason. The workings of obedience and respect for rank start on the square. I wasn't trying to suggest that drill isn't important, just the words used, as long as the troops know what they are being told to do, isn't very important.

I'm not on a high horse. As you can see from my most recent posts on this thread I have no problem accepting when I'm wrong...and in this case, I was wrong too. I'll admit that, and thanks for pointing it out.

I'm not trying to sound like I have some sort of authority on this stuff or know more than other people, I'm just saying my opinions, and what I know (in these cases, what I thought I knew).

Turbine

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Ah I see. I always read the sheet with the commands on it and thought that Shocracht was the stand at ease command. That's why I was assuming that the commands don't sound at all like what they are said like.

Just to point out too, I completely understand the importance of drill, and its purpose. Its there for a reason. The workings of obedience and respect from rank start on the square. I wasn't trying to suggest that drill isn't important, just the words used, as long as the troops know what they are being told to do, isn't very important.

I'm not on a high horse. As you can see from my most recent posts on this thread I have no problem accepting when I'm wrong...and in this case, I was wrong too. I'll admit that, and thanks for pointing it out.

I'm not trying to sound like I have some sort of authority on this stuff or know more than other people, I'm just saying my opinions, and what I know (in these cases, what I thought I knew).

Yeah that's fair enough. I don't want to get into a debate about the Irish language but I think people should respect the fact that it plays an important role in the Defence Forces. And while you may think now that you won't need a word of it, you'd be surprised how confused people can get over just knowing the difference between deas (right) and clé (left). Just knowing those two words will save you so much hassle when you start training.:P

Tybalt

So if you got that far it wouldn't hurt to try to the Irish interview then? If you were not in the PDF/RDF and didn't have a degree.

Turbine

Tybalt wrote: »

So if you got that far it wouldn't hurt to try to the Irish interview then? If you were not in the PDF/RDF and didn't have a degree.

Definitely, if you have a good command of it and can hold a decent conversation, go for it.

KickstartHeart

Turbine wrote: »

Yeah that's fair enough. I don't want to get into a debate about the Irish language but I think people should respect the fact that it plays an important role in the Defence Forces. And while you may think now that you won't need a word of it, you'd be surprised how confused people can get over just knowing the difference between deas (right) and clé (left). Just knowing those two words will save you so much hassle when you start training.:P

Yeah your'e right actually. I hope I didn't seam like I haven't respect for Irish or anything like that, or that it shouldn't be part of our daily life, in the DF or not. I do think its very important, especially to our national identity.

What kind of standards to officer cadets have to get their Irish to when studying it in the cadetschool?

Turbine

KickstartHeart wrote: »

What kind of standards to officer cadets have to get their Irish too when studying it in the cadetschool?

I'm not sure (haven't done a cadetship...yet;)), but given that they'd be giving commands as well as receiving them, they'd want to know them inside out.

Capt Blackadder

End of the day, when your bonus marks are concerned, it's only your highest applicable bonus that counts. So an Irish speaking, degree holding RDF private will only get the 10% for his degree, even though he qualifies for other bonuses.

If you think you qualify for a bonus mark that could mean the difference between a spot in the Curragh and that "I would like to express my regret..." email, by all means, go for it. Again, this is just this callsign's opinion, and therefore, should be treated as such.

KickstartHeart

Capt Blackadder wrote: »

End of the day, when your bonus marks are concerned, it's only your highest applicable bonus that counts. So an Irish speaking, degree holding RDF private will only get the 10% for his degree, even though he qualifies for other bonuses.

If you think you qualify for a bonus mark that could mean the difference between a spot in the Curragh and that "I would like to express my regret..." email, by all means, go for it. Again, this is just this callsign's opinion, and therefore, should be treated as such.

It may be just your opinion, but it is an opinion that makes sense.

paky

Turbine wrote: »

Yeah that's fair enough. I don't want to get into a debate about the Irish language but I think people should respect the fact that it plays an important role in the Defence Forces. And while you may think now that you won't need a word of it, you'd be surprised how confused people can get over just knowing the difference between deas (right) and clé (left). Just knowing those two words will save you so much hassle when you start training.:P

it plays an important role in the irish defence forces and the public service insofar that it creates an elitist mentality amongst native irish speakers who seem to benefit most from this unrealistic provision of the irish constitution. its such bullcr.ap. sorry for the rant

Capt Blackadder

Thems the rules. If you want to play the game, you have to follow them, whether you agree with them or not. Simple as.

Aaaaaaaaanyway, the best of luck to everyone. Here's hoping for a few more Army spots than there have been in the last few years.

Tybalt

With the army spots for the last few years being around 20, what would a full sized class be? Compared to cadet class of the past when recruitment was less scarce

Turbine

paky wrote: »

it plays an important role in the irish defence forces and the public service insofar that it creates an elitist mentality amongst native irish speakers who seem to benefit most from this unrealistic provision of the irish constitution. its such bullcr.ap. sorry for the rant

More nonsense from someone with a political agenda and a serious chip on their shoulder, who probably knows sfa about the Defence Forces.:rolleyes: