Wladimir Klitschko VS Jean-Marc Mormeck (3/3/12, Germany)

dlofnep

Full fight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkoZEV3u8Ms

kryogen

Very classy guys though, I would hope that regardless of peoples views on them they can acknowledge that much at least.

cowzerp

runboyrun wrote: »

I'm sick of ppl saying that the Klits are so good they make their opponents look like bums !

The fact is their opponents ARE BUMS ! A 39 year old CW .....FFS !

The Klits are ruining boxing with their boring style, Vlad is much worse than Vitali. He's so afraid of been hit it's embarassing.

The sooner someone comes along and ko's both of them the better!!

After Ali fought Frazier he fought
jean pierre-coopman 24-3-0
jimmy young 17-4-0 and
Richard Dunn 33-9-0
then Norton which was a real fight then back to
Alfredo Envangelist 14-1-0
so in fairness even the great Ali had his fair share of nothing matches while champion and this was 4-5 matches.

Frazier fought Jimmy ellis 27-5-0 for vacant title then fought Ali followed by
Bob Foster 41-4-0 some wins but v pure journeymen
Terry Daniels 23-1-1
Ron Stander 28-4-1
4 out of 5 nothing matches here too

These where during Boxings greatest ever Heavyweight scene and they where still fighting nobodies.

runboyrun

cowzerp wrote: »

After Ali fought Frazier he fought
jean pierre-coopman 24-3-0
jimmy young 17-4-0 and
Richard Dunn 33-9-0
then Norton which was a real fight then back to
Alfredo Envangelist 14-1-0
so in fairness even the great Ali had his fair share of nothing matches while champion and this was 4-5 matches.

Frazier fought Jimmy ellis 27-5-0 for vacant title then fought Ali followed by
Bob Foster 41-4-0 some wins but v pure journeymen
Terry Daniels 23-1-1
Ron Stander 28-4-1
4 out of 5 nothing matches here too

These where during Boxings greatest ever Heavyweight scene and they where still fighting nobodies.

yes most fighters have fought bums at some stage but what clearly separates frazier and ali from the klits is that both ali and frazier had career defining great fights against great opponents while the klits have not except a losing effort against a faded lewis.

why don't the klits face at least the best opposition such as povetkin, even huck etc. someone in their prime at least.

PS bob foster was no bum, he was one of the best LHW's of all time and a serious puncher.

RiseToTheTop

I think Povetkin is avoiding the Klitschkos.

Not him solely, Tedd Atlas, his advisers. It would be a bad idea for him to face either Klit at this moment.

cowzerp

runboyrun wrote: »

yes most fighters have fought bums at some stage but what clearly separates frazier and ali from the klits is that both ali and frazier had career defining great fights against great opponents while the klits have not except a losing effort against a faded lewis.

why don't the klits face at least the best opposition such as povetkin, even huck etc. someone in their prime at least.

In fairness it's not their fault that they are head and shoulders above their challengers, many of the challengers avoid them like the plaque also in fairness and it is fairly accepted that they will face anyone and have when possible, Haye to me was pointless match but the fans wanted it, Chisora pointless again and i think this was just a money making fight, Mormeck also was a pay day and as far as i know was mandatory anyway so Vitali would have lost his belt if he did not take it.

walshb

Was Mormeck really a mandatory? That implies to me that he was rated 1, or rated very high by the orgainsiations.

If true, that really is shocking.

RiseToTheTop

I doubt he was a mandatory. He only beat 3 fellas at heavyweight, all of whom were fringe contenders. Plus he didn't fight for 15 months beforehand.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Was Mormeck really a mandatory? That implies to me that he was rated 1, or rated very high by the orgainsiations.

If true, that really is shocking.

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

I doubt he was a mandatory. He only beat 3 fellas at heavyweight, all of whom were fringe contenders. Plus he didn't fight for 15 months beforehand.

They said on sky that it was not a great opponent but it was not a choice and 1 that just had to be got out of the way.

Mandatorys are often ridiculous anyway

walshb

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a bigger mismatch in hw championship history.

barney4001

Well Mormeck had held and lost various world titles, he had lost to Haye though


http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=17783&cat=boxer

RiseToTheTop

walshb wrote: »

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a bigger mismatch in hw championship history.

It would be up there alright.

gene_tunney

A lot of people will tell you 1966 and 1967 were Ali's prime years. Here's who he fought.

Zora Folley: 74-7-4 and way past it at 36 years old

Ernie Terrell: 39-4-0 went on to lose his next 2 fights

Cleveland Williams: 65-5-1literally a "shot fighter" at the time, having been inactive all of 1965 recovering from a gunshot wound. From wikipedia:Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.

Karl Mildenberger: 49-2-3 weighed in at 195 against Ali, ie a cruiser. Not a well known fighter, went on to lose to Cooper and Bonavena. No good wins on resume.

Brian London:35-13-0 13 losses says it all. Went on to finish career with 20 losses. Journeyman.

Henry Cooper: 33-11-1 second time fighting Ali, having lost already. 11 losses at the time. KO'd in 4 by Patterson in his next fight.

George Chuvalo: 34-11-2 renowned for his chin but had 11 losses. Coming off a loss to a 191 pound journeyman.


If Klitschko fought guys like this regularly he would be labelled a joke.

RiseToTheTop

and Ali outclassed them all. Chuvalo was never KO'd in his career, that can't be said for many Klitschko opponents.

Ali had no trouble with Folley. Mildenberger was a southpaw, but Ali won alright. He blew away London.

What about when Ali KO'd Sonny Liston? Liston was looked upon at the time as the best fighter of all time, even Joe Louis said so before the fight. He was like a prime Tyson after Spinks, looking absolutely unbeatable, yet Ali outclassed him. IMO Liston beats the Klitschkos every day of the week. Plus he wasn't in the 1930 Arkansas census for his family, so he definitely wasn't any older than 34 at the time.

Plus why are you looking at only prime Ali? You are leaving out the 2nd part of his career, which was better IMO. Plus his biggest wins in his prime, Liston + Patterson. Plus if Ali stayed on another bit he would have faced #1 rated Joe Frazier.

cowzerp

Gene your wasting your time! You spell it out how others have faced poor opposition and it's just ignored, all while their was gear opposition to face making it way worse, but we all love Ali so can't say anything bad.

All fighters have some easy fights even as champions, mainly fighting the top opposition. And the bros still get stick now that they have a easy fight or 2

RiseToTheTop

cowzerp wrote: »

Gene your wasting your time! You spell it out how others have faced poor opposition and it's just ignored, all while their was gear opposition to face making it way worse, but we all love Ali so can't say anything bad.

All fighters have some easy fights even as champions, mainly fighting the top opposition. And the bros still get stick now that they have a easy fight or 2

Ali's best opposition was Liston and Patterson pre-prime, yet that wasn't mentioned. Ali completely outclasses the best of 1964-67.

The Klitschko's never faced a fighter like Liston. The Liston victory alone blows both Klitschko's resumes out of the water.

Folley "and way past it at 36 years old", how do you know this? I think that a prime Ali is the greatest boxer of all time, he would make everyone look average. Just because Ali made Folley look unlike the best doesn't mean Folley was "way past it." A highly subjective statement.

The only high profile fighter Vitali Klitschko faced was Lennox Lewis, and he lost. But many of us think he would beat a prime Ali and prime George Foreman, so we can't say anything bad. Vitali Klitschko is better than, bar 1 or 2, all time greats.

kryogen

Styles.
Make.
Fights.

cowzerp

You can't be judged on as worse than someone else because your to good for your opposition, his 2 losses where technicalities and anyone can get cut in a fight-your knocking him their for something that most the boxing world praise him on, he came out of they ring a winner on most peoples eyes and Lewis back tracking on his promise to rematch makes his case stronger.

No one is saying Ali did not face great opposition but he also faced some poor opponents which has been pointed out-all this at a time when their was great opponents available to face, The brothers have faced all comers and will still continue too-knocking their skills because others are not all that is just not fair

RiseToTheTop

So you think Ali faced "poor opposition" when there was great opposition available. Ali cleared out the division till there was nobody left, on both stages of his career.

The fight before he lost to Leon Spinks he fought Earnie Shavers, a fighter many (well known) fighters avoided, when be could have retired at 35 years of age and nobody would have batted an eyelid.

kryogen

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Ali cleared out the division till there was nobody left, on both stages of his career.
.

Who is left that the Klits havent cleared out?

Draupnir

What did everyone think of Ola Afolabi on the undercard? He looks to have some real power in both hands, I remember thinking he ran Huck very close previously and I think he has a lot of potential if he can improve his defence.

It's hard to see where the challenge for either brother comes from right now, they are just way too good and they've so much experience now compared to anyone they've got left to fight.

walshb

kryogen wrote: »

Who is left that the Klits havent cleared out?

Nobody. They are the best of what is there. What folks are debating is that what is there is very very weak, and not because Wlad and Klit are so dominanat, with or without them the division stinks. Not their fault at all.

Folks can even point to some weak opposition in the 70s, but that opposition still is ahead of the best that is around today. That is the gulf in class.

Both Wlad and Vitali are very good fighters/boxers. That to me is a no brainer.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Nobody. They are the best of what is there. What folks are debating is that what is there is very very weak, and not because Wlad and Klit are so dominanat, with or wothout them the division stinks. No their fault at all.

Folks can even point to some weak opposition in the 70s, but that opposition still is ahead of the best that is around today. That is the gulf in class.

well im debating that the challengers now are more or less the same as any time bar the top 70's fighters, the list of poor lads that where named that Ali Frazier fought while champions are no better than what is around now, factually as their records suggest their way worse to be frank.

The top contenders who are legendary are what made the 70's special not some of the chumps that got matches when clearly their was better opposition to face, why is this been overlooked here-Ali, Frazier fought some nothing lads while champions even though their was good challenges out there for them

The challengers now are NEVER on tele over here and are unknown to most-thats why they're perceived as been worse than the challengers during Boxings most Mainstream times, i've still yet to hear any decent argument or fact to back up that todays are poorer than any other Era's,

Fact is most Era's had 1-2 Top Boxers and lots of challengers who just simply don't match up to any of the top ranked Fighters ever, only Era that has several is the 70's era. Tysons had only him, Now has 2 but their brothers so don't fight, Marciano's had only him, I'm not saying that Joe Louis would nt be competitive with the top ever, im saying the Louis Marciano faced would not.

cowzerp

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

So you think Ali faced "poor opposition" when there was great opposition available. Ali cleared out the division till there was nobody left, on both stages of his career.

The fight before he lost to Leon Spinks he fought Earnie Shavers, a fighter many (well known) fighters avoided, when be could have retired at 35 years of age and nobody would have batted an eyelid.

At 35 the same age as Wlad now he faced Leon Spinks

Muhammed Ali v Leon Spinks 1978
Spinks was 6 wins 1 draw 0 losses and got title shot at Ali and he won
26-17-3 at end of his career, A complete Journeyman

7 fights and 1 a draw v scott le doux who had lost 3 out of 6 and he get's a title shot!! someone asked was their ever a worse challenger-here he is, and Mormeck was 18lbs heavier than him before weight is brought into it.

Evangilista was 14-1-1 and also got a title shot in 77 WHILE COMING OF A LOSS!

75 He fought Wepner, 30-9-2 and knocked out 9 times at the time, he was foremans 4th fight which tells you something

in reality Mormeck would destroy Leon Spinks been a bigger stronger man who can bang, not that that is the point but it's easy to poke holes into todays opponents while only remembering the glory days of past legends.

I love Ali but just want people to get real about criticising the brothers and not realising that the greatest fought while champion his fair share of bums.

kryogen

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Ali cleared out the division till there was nobody left, on both stages of his career.

walshb wrote: »

Nobody. They are the best of what is there. What folks are debating is that what is there is very very weak, and not because Wlad and Klit are so dominanat, with or wothout them the division stinks. No their fault at all.

I am directly responding to the other poster I have quoted walsh

He says Ali cleared the division, so have the Klits.

---

There are two of them, if they werent brothers it could be a great rivalry but as they are its unfortunate for boxing as there is nobody that comes close to opposing them such is their quality and the lack of quality in the opposition.

All eras of boxing have had dud, a golden era will always stand out as much as a poor era but the golden era will always be remembered more fondly even though it was an exception.

Although I contend that outside the usual suspects of challengers the rest of the golden era were pretty average also.

As has been alluded to, Tyson had no rival, nobody to oppose him at his peak yet he is unquestioned in his position as one of the GOAT. I am a huge Tyson fan, but I have no problem admitting that a lot of his early fights were extremely weak, simply there to give him KO's and confidence.

This has been admitted to btw in case anybody wants to get up on the soapbox!

Plenty of people have no problem saying the Klitschkos are excellent and giving them the credit they deserve, but there are an equal amount if not more, especially UK and US based media influenced who like to use the term "effective" as a way of putting them down, unable to actually admit that they are just damn good. They have almost perfected the art of boxing. They don't have to rely on moments of genius to get them out of trouble because they are never in trouble!

The fight the other night for instance, Wlad was throwing plenty of rights and hooks but you won't hear much about that. If Haye was the HW champion, the media would spin the division in a very different way. As they were already doing when he held that title before.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

At 35 the same age as Wlad now he faced Leon Spinks

Muhammed Ali v Leon Spinks 1978
Spinks was 6 wins 1 draw 0 losses and got title shot at Ali and he won
26-17-3 at end of his career, A complete Journeyman

7 fights and 1 a draw v scott le doux who had lost 3 out of 6 and he get's a title shot!! someone asked was their ever a worse challenger-here he is, and Mormeck was 18lbs heavier than him before weight is brought into it.

Evangilista was 14-1-1 and also got a title shot in 77 WHILE COMING OF A LOSS!

75 He fought Wepner, 30-9-2 and knocked out 9 times at the time, he was foremans 4th fight which tells you something

in reality Mormeck would destroy Leon Spinks been a bigger stronger man who can bang, not that that is the point but it's easy to poke holes into todays opponents while only remembering the glory days of past legends.

I love Ali but just want people to get real about criticising the brothers and not realising that the greatest fought while champion his fair share of bums.

Records are one thing. Do not tell the whole story.

I'd say go and look at Spinks and Mormcek for the challenges and it's as clear as day that that Spinks is light years ahead of that Mormeck. At least Spinks could throw a punch. That Spinks sure as hell would have caused a whole lot more issues than Mormeck or Chisora. Much better fighter.

Like I said, I cannot think of a worse mismatch ever in championship hw history. I Still think Wlad is an accomplished and very good HW fighter.

RiseToTheTop

Ali beat Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Norton.

Vitali beat NOBODY of note, he lost to a past it Lewis who came in at 256lbs, and looked wrecked 3 rounds in. Wladimir also beat NOBODY of note. If George Foreman stepped into the ring with him Wladimir would be on his ass within 3 rounds looking up at the ceiling, after trying to kiss and hug Foreman for 3 rounds and not throwing a single hook or cross.

The Klitschko's are completely unproven, they are beaten a load of bums. This era is the worst era in all of heavyweight boxing history, by far. It's the first time Heavyweight championships aren't happening in America, it's the first time Heavyweight champions aren't getting Mayweather-money for every fight. Chisora fought Klitschko and got paid $250,000.

cowzerp

Risetothetop you cant knock someone for beating everyone that is their to beat, and challengers won't even fight either in some cases, I'm not debating who Ali did beat-this is unquestioned and why he is considered the greatest, the brothers fight everyone and anyone willing and can't do anymore, top challengers don't want to know and are waiting till they retire, either way you want to spin it the brothers are top class and deserve their place in the top of Boxings all time lists.

Either could beat any fighter that ever lived, not saying they definetly would but this is accepted by most Boxing people.

Yet still the likes of you tries to run them down even though what their knocked with their has been worse cases by ALI, ALI the greatest.

cowzerp

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Ali beat Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Norton.

What about all the other Heavyweight champions?
who did they beat, and i know people have beat Tyson etc but when he was a shell, so i mean real good names that where not near finished.

Your using Boxing's greatest ever division to compare, use same comparison v any other heavyweight champ and you will get the same conclusion.

RiseToTheTop

I have never seen Ali fight a fighter like Mormeck.

Jim White said on Sky sports that the bout wasn't a fight, and I agree with that. Mormeck landed 3 punches in the 4 rounds. Mormeck would never have stood a chance against Chuvalo, Mildenberger, Cooper, etc.