Wladimir Klitschko VS Jean-Marc Mormeck (3/3/12, Germany)

RiseToTheTop

sxt wrote: »

I never mentioned Ali or Foreman or Frazier or Tyson or any of the greats. Apart from the greats ,The Klits would make their opponents look like a "bum"

You did in the Ali VS Vitali thread.

sxt

Big Ears wrote: »

Considering if the Klitschkos weren't around David Haye would probably be the universally recognised Heavyweight champion of the World .

I disagree, The Klits, together, have ended alot of up and coming careers with career ending wins, against fighter who came to fight. David Haye would be no where near heavy weight champion in my opinion . David Haye got a chance because there was no one that the Klits hadn't beaten, and he didn't come to fight

Big Ears

sxt wrote: »

I never mentioned Ali or Foreman or Frazier or Tyson or any of the greats. Apart from the greats ,The Klits would make their opponents look like a "bum"

Ken Norton ?, Riddick Bowe ?, prime Golota ?

Prime Ray Mercer, Frank Bruno, prime Tony Tucker, prime Oliver McCall ?

They might manage to knock 1 or 2 of those out early due to their power, but I doubt they make any look like a bum, and I wouldn't be surprised of a Klitschko defeat or two.

walshb

Prime Golota walks thru Wlad IMO. Wlad has not the chin to withstand some of these men. With a chin, yes, he can win. Vit has the ability to beat any, but no way any are easy fights. Mercer is another one that one would have to bet on KOing Wlad

Even Bruno only suffered mainly due to stamina. Wlad better hope to god Bruno doesn't catch him clean. Bruno could take a dig, his stamina on late rds let him down, and Wlad too has had his stamina questioned.

Really, I would not bet on Wlad against any of the name mentioned by Big Ears.

Guy:Incognito

sxt wrote: »

I disagree, The Klits, together, have ended alot of up and coming careers with career ending wins, against fighter who came to fight. David Haye would be no where near heavy weight champion in my opinion . David Haye got a chance because there was no one that the Klits hadn't beaten, and he didn't come to fight

Who'd be champion so?

sxt

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

You did in the Ali VS Vitali thread.

I think Vitali would beat Ali , there is no way in hell that I called Ali a "bum"

walshb

Tell you, if you mixed Wlad's balance and boxing and overall talent with Vitali's chin and toughness and calmness under pressure, YES, that is a hell of a specimen.

RiseToTheTop

sxt wrote: »

I think Vitali would beat Ali , there is no way in hell that I called Ali a "bum"

I only reference the first part your post, not the "bum" part. I never said you called Ali a bum.

runboyrun

Since when did HW boxing turn into wrestling??

Vladimir's tactics of constantly holding his opponent and leaning on them is pathetic. It was a terrible scared performance, not at all the performance of a half decent champion!

He was scared of his life!

What a terrible opponent and what a terrible performance!!!!!!!!!!!!! Load of Bollix!!!

sxt

Big Ears wrote: »

Ken Norton ?, Riddick Bowe ?, prime Golota ?

Prime Ray Mercer, Frank Bruno, prime Tony Tucker, prime Oliver McCall ?

They might manage to knock 1 or 2 of those out early due to their power, but I doubt they make any look like a bum, and I wouldn't be surprised of a Klitschko defeat or two.

There are a few "greats" in that list

Big Ears

corny wrote: »

How do you figure that when Haye has just fought joke fighters at heavyweight? Bar Wlad of course.

Well 2 of the guys he beat were top 10 contenders so that certainly would bind in with the argument it's a joke division. Haye handled Ruiz extremely easily, much more so than other Heavyweight contenders.

Look at Haye's performance vs Klitschko compared to other contenders. Yes he was extremely negative, but saying he didn't try to win is untrue. He was surprised by Wlad's quick footwork which combined with his advantage in reach allowed himself to stay out of range of Haye. While he conclusively won the fight it wasn't easy in there for Wlad, he was made to miss far more frequently than he was used to and struggled to land on Haye, only his own exceptional defence allowed him to prevail. Haye did win a few rounds and also rocked Klitschko in the final round, if not for Wlad's improved instincts for surviving formed in recent years Haye would of finished him there and then.

People don't like Haye so they play down his ability. He's far quicker than most heavyweights, which other heavyweights have had the ability to make Wlad miss like that ?, his own hand speed is very good, he's got good power and technically he's a pretty good fighter.

Do people seriously Povetkin, Adamek or Arreola are superior fighters to Haye ?, I mean I know people say it but does anyone actually believe that nonsense. Look how poor Pvetkin was against Huck, nearly lost his title to a crude blown up Cruiserweight, and was hurt several times in the fight. Adamek is completely undersized at Heavyweight and lacks power, I doubt he'd stand up to Haye's speed or power either. Arreola carries massive power himself, but he often turns up in terrible shape, and just isn't on the same level technically as these guys.

Haye has shown us enough in his 6 fights at Heavyweight that he's probably the best of the rest at Heavyweight. People don't like to hear it though. Personally I think Wlad's performance vs Haye was fantastic and showed not only what a fantastic Heavyweight he is but how he's progressed in recent years.

sxt

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Who'd be champion so?

Its impossible to know , but it would not be david haye

runboyrun

I'm sick of ppl saying that the Klits are so good they make their opponents look like bums !

The fact is their opponents ARE BUMS ! A 39 year old CW .....FFS !

The Klits are ruining boxing with their boring style, Vlad is much worse than Vitali. He's so afraid of been hit it's embarassing.

The sooner someone comes along and ko's both of them the better!!

Big Ears

sxt wrote: »

Its impossible to know , but it would not be david haye

That sounds a bit like you can't think of anyone superior to Haye so refuse to answer.

Ring magazine has (removing Klitschkos) its top 10:

Povetkin
Adamek
Dimitrenko
Helenius
Boytsov
Chagaev
Arreola
Pulev
Fury

Haye for me is better than any of those fighters and I would fancy him to defeat them if he were to face them.

runboyrun

haye is the best of the rest and price is the best HW prospect

i really pray ko's both klits....pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

haye is the most explosive HW in the world, he has great speed and power

walshb

runboyrun wrote: »

haye is the best of the rest and price is the best HW prospect

i really pray ko's both klits....pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

haye is the most explosive HW in the world, he has great speed and power

Pity Haye has to try and use that explosive speed and power on talented fighters instead of washed up bums like Ruiz and Barret and Harrisson, and sloths like Valuev.

sxt

runboyrun wrote: »

I'm sick of ppl saying that the Klits are so good they make their opponents look like bums !

The fact is their opponents ARE BUMS ! A 39 year old CW .....FFS !

The Klits are ruining boxing with their boring style, Vlad is much worse than Vitali. He's so afraid of been hit it's embarassing.

The sooner someone comes along and ko's both of them the better!!

You don't give them any credit...

sxt

Big Ears wrote: »

That sounds a bit like you can't think of anyone superior to Haye so refuse to answer.

Ring magazine has (removing Klitschkos) its top 10:

Povetkin
Adamek
Dimitrenko
Helenius
Boytsov
Chagaev
Arreola
Pulev
Fury

Haye for me is better than any of those fighters and I would fancy him to defeat them if he were to face them.

Mike Perez would steamroll David Haye

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Haye has shown us enough in his 6 fights at Heavyweight that he's probably the best of the rest at Heavyweight. People don't like to hear it though. Personally I think Wlad's performance vs Haye was fantastic and showed not only what a fantastic Heavyweight he is but how he's progressed in recent years.

Well, if his perfomances at HW against that level of opposition is an indication that Haye is the best of the rest, then the HW scene is in dire straits. But, yes, he is one of the best, and looking at the rankings one could argue this. Sad!

Technically Haye has had 8 bouts above CW. The only decent foe was Wlad, and he was clearly beaten. He put on a poor show that night, no matter what spin is put on it. Ducking, diving, posing and spoiling. And after all that nonsense hype build up. And, no, it was not all becausae Wlad was so superior. Haye had no heart and no will and no balls to go for it. Wlad simply stayed a step ahead throughout.

walshb

sxt wrote: »

Mike Perez would steamroll David Haye

Based on the prize fighter?

sxt

walshb wrote: »

Based on the prize fighter?

Prizefighter showed how fast and powerful and dangerous he is, but he has very good boxing ability and pedigree to back this up as well

RiseToTheTop

Big Ears, how you rate Solis?

Big Ears

sxt wrote: »

Mike Perez would steamroll David Haye

I wouldn't be too sure about that, I've seen Perez a few times in person and also on tv. He has potential undoubtedly, but he never turns up in absolute top shape. He has a typical Cuban mentality and it'll prevent him from becoming the fighter he could be. Right now I'd certainly favour Haye, but Perez is severely untested at the moment, maybe he could come on in time to be a top Heavyweight.

Perez is also a small Heavyweight, that's not a problem when the giants he faces are as immobile as Tye Fields. Haye is no giant of course, but he does have significant height and reach advantages over Perez and who knows how Perez would deal with that sort of speed. It's a very intriguing match up to think of it. The type of thing the Heavyweight division needs.

At least Perez is fighting soon, hopefully things will start to pick up for him now.

walshb wrote: »

Well, if his perfomances at HW against that level of opposition is an indication that Haye is the best of the rest, then the HW scene is in dire straits. But, yes, he is one of the best, and looking at the rankings one could argue this. Sad!

Technically Haye has had 8 bouts above CW. The only decent foe was Wlad, and he was clearly beaten. He put on a poor show that night, no matter what spin is put on it. Ducking, diving, posing and spoiling. And after all that nonsense hype build up. And, no, it was not all becausae Wlad was so superior. Haye had no heart and no will and no balls to go for it. Wlad simply stayed a step ahead throughout.

But as we know Walshb the Heavyweight division is indeed in dire straits.
Well Ruiz and Valuev aren't great fighters I suppose, but Haye did show some quality in both fights, although he did nearly **** the Valuev fight up by letting it be that close.
Haye is a conservative fighter just like Wladamir himself, both fighters do this due to having question marks over their chins and optimising their chances of victory. Haye normally picks off rounds if he can and when a fighter gets frustrated, open up and gets a bit wild or makes mistakes Haye opens up with quick counters.

Problem was against Wlad it was Klitschko who was picking off the rounds. Now I do think Haye should have become much more aggressive later in the fight when the plan seemingly hadn't worked, to a degree he did seem to settle for the points defeat and that is disappointing of a World title challenger. He didn't completely give up though as evidenced by him catching Klitschko in the last though. But his lack of drive to go out there and try and get the knockout and grab that title from Klitschko did indicate a lack of desire. I think technically though he showed some fine qualities in the fight, and he also illustrated some of his physical ones aswell.

Was it a performance to be proud of ?, no of course not, settling for defeat in any contest is unforgivable for a man who wants to become #1. But then again you look at Povetkin, he showed desire and heart a plenty to push through in his fight with Huck and get the decision. He also showed up in horrendous shape, was blowing out of his arse throughout the fight and was a sucker for a straight right, and this is the guy that most deem to be the best of the rest.

It is a sad sign for the Heavyweight division when that's what we're left with, but a man with questionable desire is indeed the best the World has to offer Klitschkos aside imo.

sxt

Big Ears wrote: »

.

It is a sad sign for the Heavyweight division when that's what we're left with, but a man with questionable desire is indeed the best the World has to offer Klitschkos aside imo.

Haye was dead on his feet after 6 rounds agaist Vlad, he said that himself. Haye would never have considered moving up to heavyweight if the Klits were not around to end the careers of every single top contending heavyweight

Big Ears

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Big Ears, how you rate Solis?

I think he's a very good fighter if he'd turn up in any sort of reasonable shape. For most of his pro career so far he's turned up as a fat mess, now with his sort of talent that's still enough to be a contender in this era, but if he got himself down to the 220's then who knows how good he could be.
The extra weight is really limiting his footspeed, you can see the difference when he comes in at 240's as opposed to 260's/270's.

It's hard to tell how good he'd be if he was in shape, but I'd have to say he could potentially be a threat to either Klitschko and most likely on a similar level to Haye at least. But unfortunately he suffers from the 'Cuban disease'. Who knows what he'll be like now after that knee injury either, mightn't be the same fighter again and if he's lost some mobility he's ****ed cause he needs that to fight effectively as a top guy.

He's the wrong side of 30 to be where he's at. He turns 32 next month, is a fighter he needs to use his speed to be effective, neutralises his natural footspeed with his weight, and will probably need time to build himself back into a position to challenge. It might be too late for him to have a major effect on Heavyweight boxing.

sxt wrote: »

Haye was dead on his feet after 6 rounds agaist Vlad, he said that himself. Haye would never have considered moving up to heavyweight if the Klits were not around to end the careers of every single top contending heavyweight

Of course he would of, every Cruiserweight who becomes a solid champion at the weight or makes a good name for themself moves up, because that's where the money is. Why would they stay at Cruiser fighting for peanuts (in comparison) ?, and do you really think Haye wouldn't of liked the opportunity to gain a Heavyweight title at the least ?

sxt

Big Ears wrote: »

Of course he would of, every Cruiserweight who becomes a solid champion at the weight or makes a good name for themself moves up, because that's where the money is. Why would they stay at Cruiser fighting for peanuts (in comparison) ?, and do you really think Haye wouldn't of liked the opportunity to gain a Heavyweight title at the least ?

Maybe he would have but I woudln't be totally convinced .He got the golden opportunity because the Klits decimated / cleaned out the division in my opinion .Haye beat an over the hill Monte barett in his first heavy weight fight and his next fight was for a world title against a terrible boxer in Valuev .

I think Haye is a good fighter and maybe he would have stepped up but I'm not convinced ( based on his personna and actions) that he would have been so quick to to step up in weight division to challenge a prime Peters, Areloa or Solis or who ever were the top contenders without the Klits , in what would have been a highly competitive division. I'm not saying he couldn't win but i'm not sure he would be bothered to take the big risk. He would have had to beat more opponents and much stronger opposition to land a world title shot and land his big payday. Currently, He has no interest fighting anyone but the Klits. If he was serious about being world heavyweight champion again, he would fight a warm up fight at the very least

Big Ears

sxt wrote: »

He got the opportunity because the Klits decimated / cleaned out the division in my opinion .Haye beat an over the hill Monte barett in his first heavy weight fight and his next fight was for a world title against a terrible boxer in Valuev . I think Haye is a good fighter but I'm not convinced that Haye would have bothered to step up in weight division to fight a prime Peters, Areloa or Solis or who ever were the top contenders without the Klits , in what would have been a highly competitive division. He would have had to beat alot more quality contenders to land a world title shot.

Well he did also beat Tomasz Bonin (inside WBC top 40 at the time) in an unnofficial step up to Heavyweight before he fought Barrett. You are correct that he probably would of had to do more to earn a title challenger were the Klitschko brothers not around.

But fighting guys like Peters, Arreola or Solis would have probably earned him more than defending his Cruiserweight titles and as such I think he'd have gone to Heavyweight in an effort to win Heavyweight titles anyway.

Having a look through Cruiserweight champions here that moved to Heavyweight and interestingly enough about half of them lost their Cruiserweight titles before they moved up to Heavyweight.

The ones who vacated Cruiserweight titles and then moved to Heavyweight are:
Al Cole
James Toney
Tomasz Adamek
Evander Holyfield
Juan Carlos Gomez
David Haye
Marco Huck (has not vacated Cruiserweight belt yet)

Cole was beaten in his first fight at Heavyweight

Toney beat an on the slide Evander Holyfield who had, had a poor run of results leading into the fight. He then beat an unproven blown up Cruiserweight in Rydell Brooker to get a shot at a title vs John Ruiz

Adamek beat a shot Golota, Estrada, Arreola, Grant, Maddalone and McBride to get his shot.

Holyfield beat James 'Quick' Tillis, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Adilson Rodriguez, Alex Stewart and Seamus McDonagh to get his shot.

Gomez beat two poor standard journeymen before defeating raining European champion Sinan Samil Sam, his title hopes were then crushed however in a shock 1st round defeat to Yaqui Diaz. It then took quite some time and a fair few wins before he got his Heavyweight title shot.

Haye did as we discussed above.

Huck had no Heavyweight fights and challenged Povetkin as a raining Cruiserweight champion.


In most divisions it's no big deal if a fighter from the weight below who's held a title or has a good record gets a title shot. But for obvious reasons this is different at Cruiserweight-Heavyweight. The Huck vs Povetkin fight is an example that boxing politics can let things slide if they want to, so maybe Haye could have even got a shot straight at a Heavyweight belt if the Klits were around (as unjust as that would be), but it would seem likely that if he were to have some fights at Heavyweight, he may have had to have more and a greater quality than the two he did in order to get a title shot.

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote: »

Considering if the Klitschkos weren't around David Haye would probably be the universally recognised Heavyweight champion of the World then I think people certainly would regard the era as weak. Afterall Haye isn't exactly the most well liked fighter in the World with the way he conducts himself.
Although I suppose maybe he would be liked a bit more if he hadn't of been well beaten like he was against Wlad, as people would say he backed up all the thrash talk.

Anyway we got what we expected tonight, Mormeck out of his depth and Wlad finished him off with consummate ease after playing with him for a few rounds.

Haye does not deserve mention as a top heavy and the fact he does is proof that English speaking boxers get the news headlines, he was the saviour of boxing a while ago and Wlad proved how big the difference in class at heavyweight is.

Big Ears wrote: »

Ken Norton ?, Riddick Bowe ?, prime Golota ?

Prime Ray Mercer, Frank Bruno, prime Tony Tucker, prime Oliver McCall ?

They might manage to knock 1 or 2 of those out early due to their power, but I doubt they make any look like a bum, and I wouldn't be surprised of a Klitschko defeat or two.

Either brother beats all these bar Bowe, who would be a very close fight, I think Vitali beats him and Wlad gets knocked out here.

The fight was a joke but when their is no 1 else then they'll be knocked either way-people not understanding that them been far better and knocking them for it is a joke, the top 10 would not look out of place if the brothers never existed, it would look competitive actually and people's perception would be very different.

It's silly to compare any era to the 70's as that was the exception and might never happen again.

Add on, spinks got heavy weight shot without any fights at heavy.

kryogen

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Because of their advanced technique? :rolleyes:

A prime Ali wouldn't stand a chance because of his poor technique, eh?

Correct me if im wrong,

There is a difference between the term "most fighters" and "every fighter"

Yes?

kryogen

runboyrun wrote: »

I'm sick of ppl saying that the Klits are so good they make their opponents look like bums !

The fact is their opponents ARE BUMS ! A 39 year old CW .....FFS !

The Klits are ruining boxing with their boring style, Vlad is much worse than Vitali. He's so afraid of been hit it's embarassing.

The sooner someone comes along and ko's both of them the better!!

Who are they supposed to fight? There is nobody left ffs, this has been shown so clearly recently with the scraping of the barrel for fighters like Haye and Chisora.

The sooner someone comes along and KO's both of them the better? maybe your right, but who? Haye was gonna do it wasn't he? didn't really go to plan though.

They are that damn good, if you cant see it thats your problem. The opponents they are left with now is hardly their fault.