Velodrome Ireland

Beasty

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Can I ask, is this figure accurate? It seems extraordinarily low, in my opinion. What did this figure include?

We covered this in earlier threads I think, but basically the track itself would be constructed "on the cheap". It would be wooden, but not the same quality as some of the top velodromes (perfectly acceptable for racing though). That's based on the Falun model

Tallaght is not going to happen - they could not negotiate a long enough lease and the whole place may have had to be torn down after 5 years - it would have been a waste of money ( I suspect running costs would have rocketed also - a non-dedicated building is going to be much more prone to problems)

dave_o_brien

Beasty wrote: »

Newport cost £7.5m to construct 10 years ago. What I don't know is whether this includes the additional on-site facilities (reception, bike storage facilities, spinning class room etc)

I was racing at Newport last week - if we could get anything approaching that it would be a fantastic facility (it does accomodate 500 spectators, a lot less than the Derby proposal, although I would not see any need for dedicated spectator facilities at all - if necessary a section inside the track can be put aside (they actually provide dining facilities inside the track at Manchester for some events)

The Falun track was a lot cheaper - I believe the track (excluding building) cost less than €100k to build. The land is already there at Abbotstiwn, so that hopefully removes a significant incremental capital cost of building elsewhere

Morana mentioned previously a total cost of perhaps €10m - I think it could be done a lot cheaper than that, but you then get into the debate of whether it is a community facility, and I suspect the scope for accomodating more sports diminishes. Hence if they could do something for this cost and spread it across 2 or 3 sports hopefully it can become a proper facility for the community at a cost that can be justified

I just don't believe that these figures represent the full costs.

Legal fees?
Architectural/Engineering/Consultant fees?
Statutory Consents?
Council contributions?
Materials?
Contractor and subcontractors?
Labour?
Compliance?
Insurance?

When you say "Newport cost £7.5m to construct", what costs does this include?

When you say "I believe the track (excluding building) cost less than €100k to build", what does this include? Substructure? Engineering reports analysing loading implications on foundations?

I'm not being unnecessarily pedantic here, it's just I'm trying to be fair to CI; construction has many costs that are not apparent but are very significant. Overlook these and you suddenly end up way out of your budgetary depth.

Morana mentioned a figure of €10m. That seems, to me, a bargain.

Dermot Illogical

Jaysus, just build a hanger over sundrive and be done with it.

jinkypolly

Interesting article HERE about how cheap it can be to build an indoor velodrome (USA).

For example, the indoor velodrome facility built in Aigle, Switzerland cost 11 million dollars US but the 200 meter board track, fully homologated or UCI certified, only cost 400 thousand dollars, which includes the track, electronic timing, photo finish, lighting (both training and competitive), announcer’s sound system, computerized score board, access tunnel, and UCI certification. The remaining 10.6 million dollars was the land, building, and architect’s fees.

dave_o_brien

jinkypolly wrote: »

Interesting article HERE about how cheap it can be to build an indoor velodrome (USA).

$11m. Seems an absolute bargain. I would imagine you would struggle to match that here.

The major costs are not in the timber, or a PA system, or timing boards. They're mainly in legal and statutory fees, council contributions and paying people to actually make the thing a possibility. These costs are far more significant than the track itself.

Harrybelafonte

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Jaysus, just build a hanger over sundrive and be done with it.

No, don't. Having ridden a track inside a hanger, the cold was close to unbearable. It was warmer outside.

dave_o_brien

jinkypolly wrote: »

Interesting article HERE about how cheap it can be to build an indoor velodrome (USA).

Sorry I just read through of that article, and am outraged by it.

First, the suggestion that a paid professional would inflate the cost of the construction to increase their fees is ridiculous. In Ireland, the architect signs a contract to act in the interest of the client at all times until construction begins, when he effectively acts as an independent third party in discussions between client and contractor (assuming RIAI's standard form of contract). I also know of no architects who work on a percentage fee: it used to be common for smaller projects such as house extensions, sometimes even one off houses, but even in the good times was extremely rare on a large scale building. That suggestion is patently ridiculous, and justifies no response other than calling it absolute horsesh*t.

Secondly, you can build the structure for $500,000. This is possible, yes, but does not constitute a building, nor does it constitute cost. Engineers fees, M+E costs, weatherproofing, procuring, site, planning, legal fees and council contributions all spring to mind.

Thirdly, get your club members to build it. Great idea. Saves money and gets everyone involved. Except, try getting insurance for your building site. Try getting insurance for your building. Try getting a assigned certifier's opinion of compliance for your building.

That whole article, now that I've read it, is twaddle.

morana

dave_o_b the 500k was for the wood which we purchased in advance at 21k and reparations to the building I think somewhere in the region of 90k and then the construction of the track.

I dont think we are bashing CI in anyway shape or form. They have to make the call and if its a white elephant they will get the brunt of it. they look at what they think is realistic and use that to make the call to go ahead. My 10m came from a couple of sources apeldoorn afaik cost 10m for a multi sport facility and the athlone running track cost 10m.

Squidgy Black

What ever happened to the idea of having one built in the new National Sports Campus out in Abbotstown? I was reading the mission statement there about the plan for the entire campus and it says there's a space reserved for an indoor cycling track.

I think if we look at other sports such as swimming and the National Aquatic Centre, or basketball and the National Arena, it's something that CI just have to take a chance on.

Beasty

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

What ever happened to the idea of having one built in the new National Sports Campus out in Abbotstown? I was reading the mission statement there about the plan for the entire campus and it says there's a space reserved for an indoor cycling track.

That's what the latest propsal is ...

Squidgy Black

Beasty wrote: »

That's what the latest propsal is ...

Was the latest proposal not in Tallaght?

morana

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Was the latest proposal not in Tallaght?

no tallaght first and now abbottstown

Beasty

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Was the latest proposal not in Tallaght?

This round of posts started with this one indicating that Tallaght is dead, long live Abbotstown ...

nak

The velodrome and sports arena in Glasgow cost £113 million. Ouch.

Squidgy Black

morana wrote: »

no tallaght first and now abbottstown

Beasty wrote: »

This round of posts started with this one indicating that Tallaght is dead, long live Abbotstown ...

Jaysus it's getting hard to keep up with all the locations now

Did anyone read the link posted earlier from the USA on their idea on how to build a cheap velodrome? I personally liked the idea of "building apartments to let some college students who ride bikes live in, so they can keep an eye on the velodrome."

Actually now that I think of it, would it be a good idea to go halves with another organisation such as handball or badminton etc, and they could use the inner section of the track as a court?

CramCycle

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Actually now that I think of it, would it be a good idea to go halves with another organisation such as handball or badminton etc, and they could use the inner section of the track as a court?

That is pretty much the idea behind Abbottstown, share with Badmington Ireland

dave_o_brien

morana wrote: »

dave_o_b the 500k was for the wood which we purchased in advance at 21k and reparations to the building I think somewhere in the region of 90k and then the construction of the track.

I dont think we are bashing CI in anyway shape or form. They have to make the call and if its a white elephant they will get the brunt of it. they look at what they think is realistic and use that to make the call to go ahead. My 10m came from a couple of sources apeldoorn afaik cost 10m for a multi sport facility and the athlone running track cost 10m.

Gotcha, thanks.

I appreciate that, and CI (as far as I can tell) have been reasonably diligent in their pursuit of this so far. It's a complex thing, and from my perspective, they seem to be proceeding with reasonable and due care.

My only problem with this so far is that there have been figures put forward which I believe are misleading the average punter into believing CI are not willing to part with a few hundred thousand, or a low seven figure sum for a great facility. In my experience, the figures that have been put forward represent aspirations that are somewhere between totally unrealistic and remarkably good value: such good value, I am sceptical as to either their accuracy, or their scope.

Harrybelafonte

nak wrote: »

The velodrome and sports arena in Glasgow cost £113 million. Ouch.

Good enough for the Commonwealth games though, AFAIK?

morana

dave_o_brien wrote: »

G
My only problem with this so far is that there have been figures put forward which I believe are misleading the average punter into believing CI are not willing to part with a few hundred thousand, or a low seven figure sum for a great facility. In my experience, the figures that have been put forward represent aspirations that are somewhere between totally unrealistic and remarkably good value: such good value, I am sceptical as to either their accuracy, or their scope.

those figures were for a 200m training facility not uci compliant

dave_o_brien

morana wrote: »

those figures were for a 200m training facility not uci compliant

I'd imagine that has more to do with the physical limitations of the property in Tallaght though, and a longer track wouldn't represent a budget-shattering price variation.

As you probably know, the most significant costs are not tied up in the track itself, and certainly not in meeting UCI standards.

nak

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Good enough for the Commonwealth games though, AFAIK?

Yes, UCI World Cup, Revolution etc and there's a whole load of non-cycling stuff in there too; arena for international sports competitions, basketball, badminton, council gym, spa, cafe with 5 aside pitches outside.

n-dawg

nak wrote: »

Yes, UCI World Cup, Revolution etc and there's a whole load of non-cycling stuff in there too; arena for international sports competitions, basketball, badminton, council gym, spa, cafe with 5 aside pitches outside.

Yea its a massive facility. The model for how it is run is interesting, managed by the city council (Glasgow Club). Would that ever work in Dublin?

flat6

Up to date information on Sundrive Velodrome here - track availability, accreditation, regulations etc.

http://www.trackcycling.ie/
@SundriveVelo
"Sundrive Velodrome" on Facebook

Great facility - don't believe the naysayers!

nak

n-dawg wrote: »

Yea its a massive facility. The model for how it is run is interesting, managed by the city council (Glasgow Club). Would that ever work in Dublin?

I know some people don't think the coucil running it is a good thing. Glasgow city council don't have the best reputation. As a customer it is a good experince, behind the scenes is another story though.

Sundrive is a great facility, shame we can't have a roof. We were very lucky with the weather this year.

Beasty

I think the Newport International Sports Village is a good example of how a multi-sport complex can be successfully run by a local authority

n-dawg

nak wrote: »

I know some people don't think the coucil running it is a good thing. Glasgow city council don't have the best reputation. As a customer it is a good experince, behind the scenes is another story though.

Sundrive is a great facility, shame we can't have a roof. We were very lucky with the weather this year.

Right next time I'm home I'll make a point of bringing the track bike with me and giving Sundrive a shot :-)

I would agree that as a customer Glasgow Club is great, but have heard some stories of background miss management. I think a lot of the bad press with the velodrome is just because it has been so busy. They have tried to keep everybody happy and in the end they are always going to disappoint somebody. I know most of the clubs are annoyed that there is no club booking slots. However, what my club and others do is just all book into the same session at 8 am. If random others turn up they have a choice to do there own thing or join our session.

My opinion on a Irish (indoor) velodrome would be build it and they will come. There was only a passing interest in track cycling in Glasgow before it was built. Now a lot of road racers in Glasgow train on the velodrome in the winter and Wednesday night track league was very popular last year. Glasgow opened at exactly the right time though, just after the Olympics when interest was at a peak. And has attracted some major events in the short time it has been opened. Weather an Irish velodrome could attract similar events without the support of British cycling is debatable.

On costs I think that a velodrome only building probably could be done for 10-15 million but that the running costs of this type of facility would be prohibitively high for the number of users it would attract. I think a multi use facility like Newport or Glasgow although more expensive to build initially would have more sustainable running costs. Allowing regular gym members to subsidise the cost of the velodrome.

Harrybelafonte

n-dawg wrote: »

Right next time I'm home I'll make a point of bringing the track bike with me and giving Sundrive a shot :-)

I would agree that as a customer Glasgow Club is great, but have heard some stories of background miss management. I think a lot of the bad press with the velodrome is just because it has been so busy. They have tried to keep everybody happy and in the end they are always going to disappoint somebody. I know most of the clubs are annoyed that there is no club booking slots. However, what my club and others do is just all book into the same session at 8 am. If random others turn up they have a choice to do there own thing or join our session.

My opinion on a Irish (indoor) velodrome would be build it and they will come. There was only a passing interest in track cycling in Glasgow before it was built. Now a lot of road racers in Glasgow train on the velodrome in the winter and Wednesday night track league was very popular last year. Glasgow opened at exactly the right time though, just after the Olympics when interest was at a peak. And has attracted some major events in the short time it has been opened. Weather an Irish velodrome could attract similar events without the support of British cycling is debatable.

On costs I think that a velodrome only building probably could be done for 10-15 million but that the running costs of this type of facility would be prohibitively high for the number of users it would attract. I think a multi use facility like Newport or Glasgow although more expensive to build initially would have more sustainable running costs. Allowing regular gym members to subsidise the cost of the velodrome.

Valid points, but what's the population of Glasgow compared to Dublin. I personally don't believe people will come in their droves to use the facility. I was originally optimistic as numbers increased, but considering the overall lack of interest I'm more pessimistic now.

What I'd like to get is the opinion of the many members of Boards who received accreditation for the track, may have raced a bit and nver went back. Their experiences and opinions would be interesting.

Squidgy Black

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Valid points, but what's the population of Glasgow compared to Dublin. I personally don't believe people will come in their droves to use the facility. I was originally optimistic as numbers increased, but considering the overall lack of interest I'm more pessimistic now.

What I'd like to get is the opinion of the many members of Boards who received accreditation for the track, may have raced a bit and nver went back. Their experiences and opinions would be interesting.

I got my accredatitation, did 2 youth training sessions and never went back simply because it was all the way over in Crumlin and I never got the time to cycle over and back on a Monday afternoon because of school and now lectures etc.

I'd like to see an indoor track, particularly if it opens up more training sessions and coaching sessions for us younger folk.

dave_o_brien

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Valid points, but what's the population of Glasgow compared to Dublin. I personally don't believe people will come in their droves to use the facility. I was originally optimistic as numbers increased, but considering the overall lack of interest I'm more pessimistic now.

What I'd like to get is the opinion of the many members of Boards who received accreditation for the track, may have raced a bit and nver went back. Their experiences and opinions would be interesting.

Glasgow has around 600,000, so smaller than Dublin.

I think your opinion (regardless of whether or not I agree with it) would represent the opinion of stakeholders. You don't spend money on optimism, unless you are a philanthropist, and CI are not wealthy enough for such indulgences.

Facts are that it's a niche sport which seems capable of serving the current level of demand with the existing facilities.

I believe that many road riders would use it for focused winter training, and that winter track racing would be well attended given the relatively limited options compared to summer. I also believe that co-locating with other sports, and making it available to other elite (funded) athletes from other sports as a form of cross training. But that's speculation.

CramCycle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

What I'd like to get is the opinion of the many members of Boards who received accreditation for the track, may have raced a bit and nver went back. Their experiences and opinions would be interesting.

I got the accreditation awhile ago, it was good fun and really enjoyed it unfortunately the days that anything was going on that would have been suitable for me didn't agree with work.

As a matter of interest though, my plan was to go out for events and sessions etc. but if there is nothing in the calendar, is the stadium open for training etc.