is RTE 2 HD Coming To Sky?

Manc-Red

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I hope RTÉ2HD does get transmitted on Sky, as that would save me the trouble in having to invest in a decent aerial...I can't get UPC as my house isn't on their network, and while the "bunny ears" aerial I have is fine for the SD channels, RTÉ2HD stutters somewhat. It would be beneficial for many others in a similar situation (out of range of Saorview and/or have Sky already).

The only reason I can see for not providing it is to favour one provider over another, which the "neutral" state broadcaster really shouldn't be doing!

I see your point of view & completely know where you're coming from.

I love to see the figures though, but I'm willing to guess that since Sky put the Irish channels onto the EPG, I'd imagine new subscriptions in Ireland have rocketed....??

mickko

Manc-Red wrote: »

I love to see the figures though, but I'm willing to guess that since Sky put the Irish channels onto the EPG, I'd imagine new subscriptions in Ireland have rocketed....??

Sky had only 10,000's before they had RTE, mainly due to Sports.
They exploded into the 100,000's after 2003, and are about 650,000.
I can't remember exact figures.

AFAIK, Sky don't have to declare their subs for Ireland.
Again, taking advantage of unregulation.

Manc-Red

mickko wrote: »

Sky had only 10,000's before they had RTE, mainly due to Sports.
They exploded into the 100,000's after 2003, and are about 650,000.
I can't remember exact figures.

AFAIK, Sky don't have to declare their subs for Ireland.
Again, taking advantage of unregulation.

Indeed, so would I be far of the mark in saying that Sky have done rather well out of the draw of RTE/Irish channels here in Ireland for potential/current subscribers to subscribe/stay subscribed to its packages??

I genuinely think Sky need RTE like they need F.A Premier League on Sky Sports to attract/keep subscribers.

galtee boy

It wouldn't surprise me if Sky were to pay RTE to allow them carry RTE2 HD. Sky pride themselves on being the best tv service provider in Ireland and UK, which they are. The cost of their service is very high, especially if you include the HD sub, but no one can deny they provide a fantastic array of channels, 60 now in HD and whether you live in Dublin city centre or the Aran Islands, you can get their service, unlike UPC which only provides that awful MMDS service outside of the major urban centres. RTE2 HD would be a big feather in SKY's cap in Ireland and I'll be amazed if they don't do whatever it takes, to get it.

watty

Sky will get RTE2 HD for free, but Sky will pay for Carriage and Encryption.

Likely they will do it when they judge it's worth while. At the minute it's likely not a huge issue for them.

mickko

Manc-Red wrote: »

Indeed, so would I be far of the mark in saying that Sky have done rather well out of the draw of RTE/Irish channels here in Ireland for potential/current subscribers to subscribe/stay subscribed to its packages??

I genuinely think Sky need RTE like they need F.A Premier League on Sky Sports to attract/keep subscribers.

Sky hit oil here....

With RTE they've helped to achieved 650,000 subs paying, say an average of €40 per month.
That's €312million leaving the state per annum. Maybe more, maybe less.
20% goes to HMRC.
Sky pay no royalties to the state.
They are allowed to operate unregulated, with disastourous consequences for competition, and the economy.

RTE appear to have just signed a contract with Sky, based on Sky's terms. RTE jumped at it as they had a digital solution.
The boys from Sky probably went home, stunned at how easy that was.
The lads in RTE probably went on the piss to celebrate.
Well done lads! Sure just give them the HD while your at it.....

Sky must be having some laugh.

Manc-Red

mickko wrote: »

Sky hit oil here....

With RTE they've helped to achieved 650,000 subs paying, say an average of €40 per month.
That's €312million leaving the state per annum. Maybe more, maybe less.
20% goes to HMRC.
Sky pay no royalties to the state.
They are allowed to operate unregulated, with disastourous consequences for competition, and the economy.

RTE appear to have just signed a contract with Sky, based on Sky's terms. RTE jumped at it as they had a digital solution.
The boys from Sky probably went home, stunned at how easy that was.
The lads in RTE probably went on the piss to celebrate.
Well done lads! Sure just give them the HD while your at it.....

Sky must be having some laugh.

Hang on!! You saying that Sky Ireland are not paying taxes to the Irish State??!!

watty

RTE regard Sky as "wireless cable". So they have always worked with them on same basis as NTL, Westward, Chorus, UPC etc.

From RTE's point of view:
1) Sky should cost them nothing.
2) Sky are obligated to make sure only Irish Addresses can receive (Encryption, customer management etc).

RTE, TV3 and TG4 ought to get some money from Sky and UPC. Sky ought to pay the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five to carry EPG entries for their Freesat Transmissions. In an amazing piece of "Tom Sawyer" fence painting not only does Sky get payment for EPG from BBC, ITV, C4 and Five (though Sky pays BBC for Irish EPG), but think they should get "extra" for " Carrying" BBC. Which is nonsense as BBC pays their own carriage on Freesat and that is the signal used by UK and Irish Sky boxes.

So considering as Sky would like RTE to pay Sky for Carriage, EPG and Encryption, RTE can in a sense be "happy" they get it free.

In reality of course Sky ought to pay BBC for UK EPG too and pay RTE & TG3 something, about what UPC has to pay the BBC.

watty

Manc-Red wrote: »

Hang on!! You saying that Sky Ireland are not paying taxes to the Irish State??!!

For many years Sky paid Irish VAT on installs and possibly some Commercial contracts. But certainly (not sure if true today) for many years they have only paid VAT on Irish Subs to the UK government.

Sky are essentially a UK Broadcaster. They are only "regulated" by Ofcom. If Ofcom really regulated them, they would move to Morocco or somewhere. Ofcom have been consistently rubbish on Encryption, EPG, Call centre and Wholesale Sky charges.

campo

Manc-Red wrote: »

Hang on!! You saying that Sky Ireland are not paying taxes to the Irish State??!!

The VAT you pay on your bill goes to HRM not sure about profits that Sky make if any of that goes to the Irish State

mickko

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I hope RTÉ2HD does get transmitted on Sky, as that would save me the trouble in having to invest in a decent aerial...I can't get UPC as my house isn't on their network, and while the "bunny ears" aerial I have is fine for the SD channels, RTÉ2HD stutters somewhat. It would be beneficial for many others in a similar situation (out of range of Saorview and/or have Sky already).

The only reason I can see for not providing it is to favour one provider over another, which the "neutral" state broadcaster really shouldn't be doing!

This is a very fair argument from Sky's customers.

The issue here is really how Sky receive RTE's HD?
Will they be just given it in the same manner as the past, or will RTE exploit this opportunity for change.

Sky customers cannot deny the woeful situation under which Sky operate.
After all, it's their money leaving the state.

RTE and the state should only renew contracts with Sky, inclusive of HD services, under the following conditions....

a) Sky register a company office in the Republic and begin to pay 23% to our government.
b) They pay a royalty, per sub, that they must declare monthly, to the state, for the channels they are using.
c) They can only sell their product within Ireland, licenced and regulated by ComReg.

Regulation would...
a) cap Sky retail charges for packages at a max level.
b) allow complaints to be made to a comptroller.
c) lower Sky's prices, and Cable's prices.
d) enforce Sky's services onto other platform, ie: Sports HD on UPC

twinklerunner

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I hope RTÉ2HD does get transmitted on Sky, as that would save me the trouble in having to invest in a decent aerial...I can't get UPC as my house isn't on their network, and while the "bunny ears" aerial I have is fine for the SD channels, RTÉ2HD stutters somewhat. It would be beneficial for many others in a similar situation (out of range of Saorview and/or have Sky already).

The only reason I can see for not providing it is to favour one provider over another, which the "neutral" state broadcaster really shouldn't be doing!

I wonder if Sky are keeping epg numbers 115-120 free in Ireland for the HD versions of the Irish channels, etc??

galtee boy

Guys, while I agree that the vat on Irish Sky subs at least should go to the Irish Govt, lets be honest, the average subscriber out there amongst the 650,000, doesn't give a monkeys where Sky's money goes to, as long as the picture is on the screen, when he/she gets home from work in the evening. We spend hundreds of millions on Amazon UK and other UK online shops each year, as a nation, and it doesnt bother us that, all that money is going to UK companies and the UK taxman.

watty

Er... Amazon is American and uses a lot of Affiliates. Is anything much more than Amazon UK VAT going to UK?

mickko

galtee boy wrote: »

We spend hundreds of millions on Amazon UK and other UK online shops each year, as a nation, and it doesnt bother us that, all that money is going to UK companies and the UK taxman.

Not sure that is correct. Amazon have offices in Blanchardstown. Another poster on this thread claims they get charged Irish VAT on purchases from the UK.

galtee boy

Ok, I understand where Watty and Mickko are coming from, but you get my drift, we as a nation do send millions out of this country every year on online shopping, when you could say we should be patriotic and spend our money in Irish shops etc ? Don't want to the thread to go off topic, so I wish Sky was Irish and they generated millions for the Irish Govt etc, but they are not and UPC will never be able match their all Ireland signal coverage or their channel choice etc, so for many SKY will be their only option for pay/subscription tv, regardless of the fact that SKY do very little, if anything for the Irish economy.

maggy_thatcher

mickko wrote: »

This is a very fair argument from Sky's customers.

The issue here is really how Sky receive RTE's HD?
Will they be just given it in the same manner as the past, or will RTE exploit this opportunity for change.

Sky customers cannot deny the woeful situation under which Sky operate.
After all, it's their money leaving the state.

RTE and the state should only renew contracts with Sky, inclusive of HD services, under the following conditions....

a) Sky register a company office in the Republic and begin to pay 23% to our government.
b) They pay a royalty, per sub, that they must declare monthly, to the state, for the channels they are using.
c) They can only sell their product within Ireland, licenced and regulated by ComReg.

Regulation would...
a) cap Sky retail charges for packages at a max level.
b) allow complaints to be made to a comptroller.
c) lower Sky's prices, and Cable's prices.
d) enforce Sky's services onto other platform, ie: Sports HD on UPC

Nobody has confirmed if RTÉ are allowed to have differential rates between the different providers (e.g. RTÉNL, UPC, BSkyB) - if they aren't allowed differential rates - then I'm not sure how the "Royalty per sub" would be measurable for RTÉNL! As for "only sell their product within Ireland" - I'm pretty sure that it's already in their contract already that they aren't allowed to sell access to RTÉ except to Irish customers!

I also don't see how charging a company extra will cause Sky to lower their prices?

Similarly - if the regulator can cap retail charges, and Sky are overcharging, how come UPC aren't capped (given they charge similar prices - UPC Max+ movies & sports+ESPN + HD = €94.44, Sky Entertainment Extra + movies & sports + ESPN + HD = €91).

The only real advantage "regulation" seems to give you is the ability to lodge complaints with some kind of oversight committee rather than directly.

Personally - I agree that Sky should be obliged to set up a local tax collection, even though it would mean our charges would go up (as I currently only have to pay UK rates), as well as be obliged to provide their services on other platforms (perhaps after a period of exclusivity), if they want them. However I also think a clause should be in place such that if the encryption of the "competitor" system is ever broken, the upstream provider reserves the right to cut the feed / tear up the contract with no penalty. This would then encourage the cable companies etc. to ensure that their system is secure (though it would also mean that it would be in upstream providers interest to try and break their competitors encryption!)

I believe that UPC, Sky and RTÉNL should be treated equally by RTÉ - whatever rules they apply to one should apply to them all...

mickko

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

As for "only sell their product within Ireland" - I'm pretty sure that it's already in their contract already that they aren't allowed to sell access to RTÉ except to Irish customers!

Sorry, I meant if Sky want to sell their product in Ireland with RTE included, they can do so only under license issued by ComReg.
Terms to be set out by the State, in their agreement with Sky.
No license = No RTE carriage.

You've said all carriers should be equally treated by RTE.
What qualifies Sky's exemption from this?

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I also don't see how charging a company extra will cause Sky to lower their prices?

It wont. But Sky are clearly making vast profits from the Irish sub, many of whom are subscribers because of RTE. Some small slice of the cake would not be an unreasonable request, particularly because they are inevitably unwilling to help provide a FTV card system.

What would drive prices down is increased competition, by properly regulating Sky, whereby they cannot deny their programming to cable ops, (sportsHD, Sky Atlantic, etc), or make unreasonable terms of carriage with the cable operator.
Regulation could also bring about an encrypted service carrying Sky channels over DTT, much like the Top Up TV service over the UK's DTT, increasing competition again.
As this stands, it's the consumer who ultimately suffers.

Sky's wholesale charges to cable ops in Ireland are excessive.
Just like comparison between UK residential sub price v Irish residential sub price for same pack.
So UPC must charge at least equally or more. Sky maintain max price for themselves. They screw the customer directly, and they screw them indirectly via wholesale charges to operators.
Remember the Virgin v Sky issue over wholecharges for Sky's basic channels? I think OFCOM were involved there too.

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I believe that UPC, Sky and RTÉNL should be treated equally by RTÉ - whatever rules they apply to one should apply to them all...

I agree 100%.

I've outlined already why I believe RTE should be available, to the Irish license payer, and on as many platforms as possible, including cable and sat for free.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be any solution for free carriage over Astra. The FTV card seems unworkable, but not impossible.
That's very convenient for Sky.

The legalities and issues with Sky are so complex and controversial, that it warrants reviewing RTE's carriage altogether, unless Sky were to comply with some version of the rough guidelines I've set out above.

These complex issues do not warrant just allowing them access to the RTE channels without complying with any rules or conditions.

RTE's obligation is to deliver RTE to the Island of Ireland.
Sky have helped them out for a few years because RTE did not have the solution themselves, and they've done very well out of it.

100% of our residence's can/will receive RTE by DTT, SAT, Cable.

RTE have now met their obligations, and the whole availability of RTE under the current Sky arrangement needs to be very seriously reviewed.

mickko

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I'm not sure how the "Royalty per sub" would be measurable for RTÉNL!

maggy, I'm not familiar with the details of the relationship between RTE and RTENL for carriage. Could you give a brief outline? I'd be interested to know, cheers

watty

RTE NL is the main Irish distribution company. RTE, TG4, TV3 pay for DTT carriage on the same basis. They also rent masts and other facilities to Independent Radio, RTE Radio, Wireless Internet, Mobile Phone & Eircom links. Arqiva is similar in UK. The Government insisted on the creation of RTENL around 1999 to 2001 and has been trying to get RTE to sell it (no-one is buying rather than RTE not selling) since about 2001. IMO it should be combined with eNet and ESB networks under permanent state control. The UK was crazy to privatise the IBA and BBC transmitters.

There is a MAJOR difference between RTENL and Sky/UPC. Sky & UPC are Pay TV providers. Sky has no distribution & transmission, nor owns any of the boxes. UPC own ALL the customer boxes and probably all of their distribution and "transmission" system. Sky really only sell subscriptions. Sky Sports and Sky News have limited production. Ideally Sky & UPC should be forbidden to own channels.

Eutelsat and Astra do Sky & Freesat Transmission on a similar basis to RTENL DTT. RTENL Saorsat is on a similar basis to BT, Arqiva, RRsat or other reselling of leased Satellite space.

Unlike Sky/UPC the RTENL only provides Transmission (like Arqiva in UK or SES-Astra and Eutelsat on Satellite). They don't interact at all with viewers/listeners and ALL RTENL transmission is Free To Air and un-encrypted.

Sky & UPC provide sell Pay TV.

MarkK

mickko wrote: »

I've outlined already why I believe RTE should be available, to the Irish license payer, and on as many platforms as possible, including cable and sat for free.

This is a contradiction surely?
If Sky have to pay a per subscription fee, that fee will inevitably be passed on to the consumer.
That means Sky subscribers will be paying more to watch RTE than their neighbours watching on Saorview.

It would be great if the UKs Ofcom would get tough with Sky about what they charge cable companies, but the way Murdoch holds British politicians in his thrall I would not hold out much hope of that happening.

mad muffin

So in a nutshell, we don't really know if Sky will have RTE 2 HD…

twinklerunner

mad muffin wrote: »

So in a nutshell, we don't really know if Sky will have RTE 2 HD…

watty

Of course Sky will have RTE2 HD

When Sky are ready ...

watty

MarkK wrote: »

That means Sky subscribers will be [are] paying more to watch RTE than their neighbours watching on Saorview.

B]My Edit[/B

Of course Sky or UPC customers pay more to watch RTE, BBC etc. 90% of Sky or UPC customer viewing is Free Channels, Channels FTA on Freesat or Saorview.

People choose to have Pay TV. It's poor value in terms of viewing time vs money of the channels that are Pay TV only.

MarkK

watty wrote: »

B]My Edit[/B

Of course Sky or UPC customers pay more to watch RTE, BBC etc. 90% of Sky or UPC customer viewing is Free Channels, Channels FTA on Freesat or Saorview.

People choose to have Pay TV. It's poor value in terms of viewing time vs money of the channels that are Pay TV only.

Thanks Watty, good point.

I meant to say, Sky and UPC customers would be paying more to RTE (Licence fee + extra fee as part of their Pay TV subscription) than their Saorview neighbours (Licence fee only)

The Cush

watty wrote: »

The Government insisted on the creation of RTENL around 1999 to 2001 and has been trying to get RTE to sell it (no-one is buying rather than RTE not selling) since about 2001.

RTÉNL was created out of the failed sale of 68% of RTÉ's network division (Netco) in late 2002. There were 3 final bidders but the price had dropped from approx €70m to €20-30m by the time "ItsTV" withdrew its bid for the multiplex licence. At that time the network sale was cancelled.

mickko

MarkK wrote: »

I meant to say, Sky and UPC customers would be paying more to RTE (Licence fee + extra fee as part of their Pay TV subscription) than their Saorview neighbours (Licence fee only)

But UPC/Sky customers are already paying this "extra fee as part of their Pay TV subscription" and UPC/Sky pay nothing. No matter what way it's dressed up, the customer pays. There's just no clarity on exactly what they are paying.

I'm suggesting adding a royalty under the current circumstances under which RTE is distributed over these platforms

OR.......

If the carrier receives them for free, then the terms are that the carrier delivers them truly free, which in the case of cable, is possible and proven.

I favour the latter, because I feel every (license paying) citizen of the state should be entitled to the easiest possible access to the state's PSB.

If they can't provide them truly free, they pay a royalty, and needless to say, operate only under regulation in any scenario.

Either of these scenarios have clarity and make sheer common sense.
It's one or the other. But the current arrangement is rotten, particularly in Sky's case where they not only get them free, but enjoy unregulation and exploitation as a bonus.

MarkK

mickko wrote: »

But UPC/Sky customers are already paying this "extra fee as part of their Pay TV subscription" and UPC/Sky pay nothing. No matter what way it's dressed up, the customer pays. There's just no clarity on exactly what they are paying.

No, they are not paying this extra fee (fee to RTE), they are paying extra compared to the UK but that money does not go to RTE.

If the RTE fee were implemented why wouldn't Irish subscribers continue to pay more (than the UK) to Sky plus the extra fee to RTE on top?
There would be no extra clarity, just extra cost for the subscriber.

maggy_thatcher

watty wrote: »

Ideally Sky & UPC should be forbidden to own channels.

What's the difference between Sky/UPC owning their own channels in addition to transmitting them, and newspaper companies owning their own printing presses?