is RTE 2 HD Coming To Sky?

Hogzy

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

ok i have actually filled in the online ASAI complaint form about this advert.... lets see what happens.

I havnt seen it at all. Is there a link to it?

The Cush

Hogzy wrote: »

Im sure once Saorsat is launched in Ireland RTE will be on sky and will be viewable without a card.

RTÉ on Sky without a viewing card won't happen, they've said this option is not available to them.

Wouldn't be much point in launching Saorsat if the channels were going to be available FTA via the Sky box.

Bigcheeze

Hogzy wrote: »

Sky Ireland Ltd is an Irish registered company so all Irish sky customers pay Irish vat. Why would you think we would be paying uk vat when the service is bought and supplied in Ireland. It's like saying mcdonalds charge the American vat rate because they're an American company

They actually charge UK VAT. When the UK VAT rate went up last year I received a notice of price increase, the reason given was that UK VAT was going up to 20%. The service is supplied from space.

channelsurfer2

Hogzy wrote: »

I havnt seen it at all. Is there a link to it?

no link to it but i am sure you cant miss it as they seem to be advertising on rte/tv3 most evenings these days.

PogMoThoin

Hogzy wrote: »

Sky Ireland Ltd is an Irish registered company so all Irish sky customers pay Irish vat. Why would you think we would be paying uk vat when the service is bought and supplied in Ireland. It's like saying mcdonalds charge the American vat rate because they're an American company

WTF? America isn't in the EU. Sky charge UK VAT, they are registered there not here.

VAT on services
VAT on services is paid at the place where the service has been supplied. This will most often, but not always, be where the service supplier is established. The trader will in those cases account for VAT on his services in the Member State where he is established, applying the VAT rate of that country.
Depending on the nature of the service, VAT may need to be paid in another Member State than that where the supplier is established. This is for example the case with services connected to immovable property; transport of passengers or goods; cultural, artistic, sporting, scientific, educational, and entertainment services.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

icdg

Hogzy wrote: »

Sky Ireland Ltd is an Irish registered company so all Irish sky customers pay Irish vat.

There is no Sky Ireland Limited, according to a search at the CRO.

There is only the operations in the Republic of Ireland of British Sky Broadcasting. Some people seem to think that the ROI service is a separate service to the UK service. It isn't - it uses the same satellites, the same transponders, the same digiboxes, the same dishes (give or take that some people have to have a larger dish, as is also the case in Scotland), the same subscriber management system etc.

The differences between the UK and Ireland in terms of channel line up are enforced through the conditional access system.

Infoanon

The Cush wrote: »

Could it be down to who pays carriage and distribution costs or epg position?

IIRC RTE receive a % of the Sky sub - the deal done between Sky and RTE was a) Sky paid for the upstream facility and when subsciber numbers exceeded 'x' , Sky would pay RTE a %

mickko

Hogzy wrote: »

Arent all the BBC channels available in Ireland on Freeview for free? :rolleyes:

(and we obviously dont pay a UK TV license fee)

That's exactly my point!
The British PSB's are FTA all over Europe. As are the French, German, Italian, Polish, and many more, via Astra or Eutelsat, all of which also have their own internal DTT platforms.
Correct me if I'm wrong, none have handed over their PSBs to allow a foreign pay tv platform resell them back into their own country, and enjoy the position Sky have here.
RTE handed Sky our PSBs on a silver plate because it was an Irish solution to an Irish problem. ie: we had no digital platform for them ourselves

Manc-Red

If this channel is to appear on Sky's EPG... Lets hope its in time for the European Championships.

icdg

mickko wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, none have handed over their PSBs to allow a foreign pay tv platform resell them back into their own country, and enjoy the position Sky have here.

Every country that has cable television which is not domestically owned has done so. And cable TV is very expensive to run, there are very few cable companies in Europe left that are even European-owned, never mind owned in their own country. US-owned UPC dominates in many European countries. There is the perception in the UK that Virgin Media is a British company, thanks to its use of the very British brand "Virgin", but in fact its Delaware-registered, listed on the NASDAQ, and Richard Branson only has a minority stake.

mickko

rivalius13 wrote: »

You think UPC are Irish? Bless.

Bless yourself. I'm fully aware of UPC's ownership structure, as is the case with many companies operating here; PayPal, Boots, eBay, McDonalds, Marks and Spensers, our new friends "hello Ireland" Liberty Insurance, the list goes on....

The makeup of their ownership is irrelevant. All are based here, correctly registered, creating employment, paying rent, VAT, PAYE, USC, PRSI, etc, etc, etc....

This includes UPC, who also have several companies registered here, are fully regulated, and are licensed by ComReg.

Sky on the other hand....

mickko

icdg wrote: »

Every country that has cable television which is not domestically owned has done so. And cable TV is very expensive to run, there are very few cable companies in Europe left that are even European-owned, never mind owned in their own country. US-owned UPC dominates in many European countries. There is the perception in the UK that Virgin Media is a British company, thanks to its use of the very British brand "Virgin", but in fact its Delaware-registered, listed on the NASDAQ, and Richard Branson only has a minority stake.

But these are physical operators within the respective countries, just like UPC here, regulated, employing people, vat, etc
Sky's position here is different, particularly because they are satellite based, and literally have had little physical presence here.
Aside from being unregulated, when you pay Sky, you pay directly into a UK bank account. It was very poor for the state to have allowed this to happen at a negotiating level with Sky.

muffler

Hogzy wrote: »

The debate on UK v Irish pricing has been done to death. The higher Vat rates added with the Irish call centers and the cost of operating in Ireland justify the higher cost (which isnt all that much to be honest).

I'll take issue with this point and I have done a few sums to show the difference in the pricing which, with the exception of the basic package, is far from "isnt all that much"



The above figures are sourced from Sky’s websites and the conversion rate used is €1 = £0.84

Example: £20 (incl. 20% VAT) = £16.66 (excl. VAT) = €19.84 (excl. VAT) = €24.40 (incl. 23% VAT)



.

Crackity Jones

muffler wrote: »

I'll take issue with this point and I have done a few sums to show the difference in the pricing which, with the exception of the basic package, is far from "isnt all that much"



The above figures are sourced from Sky’s websites and the conversion rate used is €1 = £0.84

Example: £20 (incl. 20% VAT) = £16.66 (excl. VAT) = €19.84 (excl. VAT) = €24.40 (incl. 23% VAT)



.

For a more accurate Sports package comparison you should include espn @ £9 in the UK price.

There's no doubt that the prices are shown to be inflated in the above table and the movies differential is a disgrace if the prices are accurate but I just checked the sky world price ( as that's the one that affects me!) and its pretty much identical @ €76. I had thought there was a bigger difference in our favour but I was looking at UK Sky World with phone service.

Edit: sorry you can get ESPN for £9 with sky sports; phone service info

mickko

muffler wrote: »

I'll take issue with this point and I have done a few sums to show the difference in the pricing which, with the exception of the basic package, is far from "isnt all that much"



The above figures are sourced from Sky’s websites and the conversion rate used is €1 = £0.84

Example: £20 (incl. 20% VAT) = £16.66 (excl. VAT) = €19.84 (excl. VAT) = €24.40 (incl. 23% VAT)



.

Good illustration, but the 23% Irish VAT rate is not used.
A UK sub, is the same as a ROI sub, and both pay 20% UK VAT.

This should be a straight conversion, making the difference even larger!

Minstrel27

mickko wrote: »

RTE handed Sky our PSBs on a silver plate because it was an Irish solution to an Irish problem. ie: we had no digital platform for them ourselves

As we had no digital platform RTÉ should have stayed off satellite completely?

muffler

Crackity Jones wrote: »

For a more accurate Sports package comparison you should include espn @ £9 in the UK price.

I deliberately didn't list the ESPN package as its presently on offer in ROI and not in the UK. I listed the static or recurring packs only so as to make a fair and accurate comparison.

Crackity Jones wrote: »

if the prices are accurate

Yes the prices are accurate but as there may be a lower VAT rate than I included then the price differences may vary slightly

Crackity Jones wrote: »

I just checked the sky world price ( as that's the one that affects me!) and its pretty much identical @ €76. I had thought there was a bigger difference in our favour but I was looking at UK Sky World with phone service.

Im glad you edited your post to reflect the actual situation. In the UK they get a free/reduced cost phone bundle thrown in with the package AFAIK so there is a big difference.

mickko wrote: »

Good illustration, but the 23% Irish VAT rate is not used.

I wasn't aware that it was a 20% rate.

recyclebin

I've tried looking at what VAT rate Sky Ireland charge and all my searches come back to boards or digital spy.

Is their any official confirmation whether the VAT goes to the Irish or UK tax man?

Mr McBoatface

recyclebin wrote: »

I've tried looking at what VAT rate Sky Ireland charge and all my searches come back to boards or digital spy.

Is their any official confirmation whether the VAT goes to the Irish or UK tax man?

Joan Burton confirmed this in one of the debates on launch of Saorview in May of 2010 I think. If I remember correctly she was questioning the Head of the BAI on the matter.

Here's a Indo link from way back in 2006 confirming Sky pay UK VAT - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/theres-no-limit-to-skys-plans-for-receptive-irish-111038.html

Nor is the company fully regulated in the Irish market. For example, because its signal is beamed into the Republic and not originated here, it does not pay the standard 21pc VAT rate - instead, it pays VAT at the 17.5pc British level, while Irish subscribers generate tax for the British exchequer.

BSkyB has resisted regulation in Ireland through the Television Without Frontiers directive which allows for that because it is based in Britain

Crackity Jones

muffler wrote: »

I deliberately didn't list the ESPN package as its presently on offer in ROI and not in the UK. I listed the static or recurring packs only so as to make a fair and accurate comparison.


Im glad you edited your post to reflect the actual situation. In the UK they get a free/reduced cost phone bundle thrown in with the package AFAIK so there is a big difference.

Yea I know ESPN is 'on offer' here but it largely accounts for the price differential between UK and Irl sports pack prices you show in table. As it stands the sports package offered in Ireland includes ESPN for the forseeable future.

The Sky world pack in the UK that costs almost €76 (same price as IRL) doesnt include the phone line.

mickko

Hogzy wrote: »

BS. 4 channels did not warrant everyone moving to Sky. Everyone moved to Sky because they were the best Digital TV provider at the time (and IMO still are). They were the only people to be offering a full 7 day EPG built into the TV.

True, the channels alone did not warrant people moving to Sky. But their move, along with other features such as picture quality, recordable services, and the EPG, (which incidently is not built into the TV), offered a very attractive package, and vastly increased Sky subs here.

Watty pointed out the viewership rating in a previous thread.....

"more than 25% of Sky setbox viewing is RTE (highest)
2% is Sky 1 (highest pay channel rating!)
1% to 2% is all Sky Sports. But for the people paying, it's an important 1% to 2%".

Prior to RTE's launch in 2003, Sky subs were in the ten's of thousands, probably mainly for Sky Sports. Their subs rapidly exploded into the hundreds of thousands after RTE's launch.

Hogzy wrote: »

If they made Sky pay for them, then sky would charge its customers more.

This is the irony I'm trying to illustrate. RTE dont charge Sky for them.
But Sky are encrypting them, charging us for them, and in an unregulated environment, where they contribute little or nothing back to the state that handed them over.

Hogzy wrote: »

The debate on UK v Irish pricing has been done to death. The higher Vat rates added with the Irish call centers and the cost of operating in Ireland justify the higher cost (which isnt all that much to be honest). Given the fact the UK has a much larger population, TV can be sold cheaper. Its the exact same with mobile phone rates. THe larger the market the lower the cost to provide the service.

What costs of operating in Ireland?

Sky have absolutely no operations here in the end to end technical distribution of their platform. ie; sat uplinks, downlinks, studios, headend facilities, control/monitoring centres, card authorisation facilities, etc.

They have the minimum presence here possible. At present, they have a modestly sized call centre in Cork, which was a necessity they needed, and to the best of my knowledge, installers are independent operators, paid a poor commision per sub. This is nothing compared to what they are turning over from the country.

It would be very interesting to know the comparison in commision paid to a UK installer and an Irish one.

There is also no higher VAT rate. A UK sub is the same as a ROI sub. We both pay 20%. The size of the UK is irrelevant. It's a single market over both countries.

By your own logic, we should therefor be actually paying less than the UK subscriber!




Here's a good example of Sky's unregulated operations. Sky Sports HD services are absent from UPC. This is'nt UPC's fault. In the UK, OFCOM had to direct Sky to supply Virgin with the services making the market more competitive, and keep Sky under control.
Who do UPC compain to about this? Sky answer to nobody here.

My argument is very plausible. RTE appear to have just given our PSB's to Sky, to do as they wish. Sky are having a ball, bleeding the country dry. 100's of millions is being pumped out of the state per annum, several billion over the last few years. Sky are running riot here, because they've been allowed to. They are exploiting Ireland.

This is an extraordinary situation that needs to be addressed. The government are looking at ways to create revenue and it's me and you they'll get it from.

It's a fair argument, if Sky want to continue using our PSB's, or expect any more services such as RTE2 HD, they need to be held accountable, get into line, pay their share, and play by the rules.

mickko

Hogzy wrote: »

Sky Ireland Ltd is an Irish registered company so all Irish sky customers pay Irish vat. Why would you think we would be paying uk vat when the service is bought and supplied in Ireland. It's like saying mcdonalds charge the American vat rate because they're an American company

This is utter nonsense. It's irresponsible to fabricate such a misguided statement.

There is no such thing as Sky Ireland Ltd. BSkyB have no registered companies in the Republic of Ireland, Limited or otherwise. FACT.

Irish residential Sky subscribers pay directly into a Euro bank account based in the UK. Sky are obliged to pay 20% of this in VAT to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). FACT.

The service is not bought and supplied in Ireland. It's supplied from the UK, and you pay directly into UK. FACT.

maggy_thatcher

mickko wrote: »

This is the irony I'm trying to illustrate. RTE dont charge Sky for them.
But Sky are encrypting them, charging us for them, and in an unregulated environment, where they contribute little or nothing back to the state that handed them over.

Sky are obligated to encrypt them - RTÉ doesn't have distribution rights to their programming to the UK - the spillover of 56 million people would mean that RTÉ effectively would be unable to buy any of the international programming that it does. BBC/ITV/etc. can "get away" with the spillover of Ireland, as that's a tiny percentage of how much it has to pay. This is why Saorsat uses a completely different system that can be received here but not in the UK.

What do you suggest Sky do?

• Not encrypt the stations - not a runner as per above
• Provide "free" viewing cards to non-subscribers? Who's going to fund that?
• Not provide the Irish channels at all? Who's that going to benefit?

Or is there something else that you want them to do?

Right now, the supposedly network neutral RTÉ is giving preferential treatment to the separate organization RTÉNL in giving them the extra channel RTÉ2HD. RTÉ should really be providing the channel content at the same price to all distribution methods, and leave it up to them as to whether or not to host it, but until favouritism stops that isn't going to happen...

muffler

Crackity Jones wrote: »

The Sky world pack in the UK that costs almost €76

Not sure where you are getting that. Have you a link?

campo

muffler wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting that. Have you a link?

Sky World is £67.69 then add ESPN which is £9 so total would be 76.69

Got this from the Sky website

muffler

campo wrote: »

Sky World is £67.69 then add ESPN which is £9 so total would be 76.69

Got this from the Sky website

From their UK web site

Sky TV Subscription: Packages £20-£53 per month (pm).

Sky 3D: 3DTV and Sky World HD (£63.25 pm)

And from their ROI website

Sky TV packages from €25-€76 a month (pm).

Sky 3D: 3DTV and Sky World HD (€91 pm)

So lets look at the 3D HD Sk World for example. The UK top price is £63.25 which (assuming same 20% vat rate) would equate to €75.30. Its priced in ROI at €91 which is a rip off.

People taking the basic package including either Sports or movies or both are also being ripped off.

mickko

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Sky are obligated to encrypt them - RTÉ doesn't have distribution rights to their programming to the UK - the spillover of 56 million people would mean that RTÉ effectively would be unable to buy any of the international programming that it does. BBC/ITV/etc. can "get away" with the spillover of Ireland, as that's a tiny percentage of how much it has to pay. This is why Saorsat uses a completely different system that can be received here but not in the UK.

What do you suggest Sky do?

• Not encrypt the stations - not a runner as per above
• Provide "free" viewing cards to non-subscribers? Who's going to fund that?
• Not provide the Irish channels at all? Who's that going to benefit?

Or is there something else that you want them to do?

Right now, the supposedly network neutral RTÉ is giving preferential treatment to the separate organization RTÉNL in giving them the extra channel RTÉ2HD. RTÉ should really be providing the channel content at the same price to all distribution methods, and leave it up to them as to whether or not to host it, but until favouritism stops that isn't going to happen...

Doesnt this give rise to the question of weather they should be on the platform at all, particulary now that we have our own Spot Beamed Sat solution?

However, that's probably not going to happen and if they must be encrypted due to overspill via Astra, then changes need to be made where the state regulates them. The VAT issue needs to be dealt with as well.
Any HD channels RTE produces will certainly have pulling power in negotiating with Sky, but just allowing them to have them under the current situation would be criminal.

It'll be very interesting to see what does happen to RTE2 HD. Sky will most definantly want it, as with any further HD content. Its availability on Sky will be a good indication of governments position and if they are going to allow this situation to continue.

maggy_thatcher

mickko wrote: »

Doesnt this give rise to the question of weather they should be on the platform at all, particulary now that we have our own Spot Beamed Sat solution?

Regardless of the weather conditions, Saorsat isn't live yet, so we don't have this solution at the moment. In addition, it will not contain any additional channels other than that which is on Saorview, so if an Irish person wants Sky & Saorsat, they'll need a bunch of extra equipment (also taking into account that if you need a second dish for Saorsat, you'll need planning permission), which seems very unfair to the Irish digital market.

mickko wrote: »

However, that's probably not going to happen and if they must be encrypted due to overspill via Astra, then changes need to be made where the state regulates them. The VAT issue needs to be dealt with as well.
Any HD channels RTE produces will certainly have pulling power in negotiating with Sky, but just allowing them to have them under the current situation would be criminal.

Criminal? What laws are being broken?

Crackity Jones

muffler wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting that. Have you a link?

To make a fair comparison with the channels offered in both IRL and UK packs I was including ESPN in the UK price.

so its £53+£9 = £62 roughly €74.

I was adjusting for VAT in my previous post but seems from above both markets are chargeable @ 20%.

Manc-Red

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Provide "free" viewing cards to non-subscribers? Who's going to fund that?

The Government ..... I have a Sky FTA card with Setanta only on it.

Its possible that RTE could go on these cards..... I don't know the exact reasoning why the don't though.