Football in Kilkenny whats the point?

premierstone

Martin567 wrote: »

It never is though, is it. As usual, it's imperative that something should be done about the one rubbish football team but the dozen or more rubbish hurling teams don't matter.

Your argument is beyond inane and your only reply when you have no answer is to say "this thread isn't about that".

You are not comparing like with like, the dozen or more rubbish hurling teams as you describe them are rubbish compared to the elite, hoever they are competitive at their own level, KK footballers however are rubbish compared to the second worst team in football.And no one within the county board gives a toss, and no effort is made to improve, so the question is why do they bother to field teams at all? I'll give you a hint €€€€

hardybuck

premierstone wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like, the dozen or more rubbish hurling teams as you describe them are rubbish compared to the elite, hoever they are competitive at their own level, KK footballers however are rubbish compared to the second worst team in football.And no one within the county board gives a toss, and no effort is made to improve, so the question is why do they bother to field teams at all? I'll give you a hint €€€€

Yeah according to the NFL last year, the second worst team was London, and the third worst team was Leitrim. London beat KK by fourteen points, and Leitrim beat them by 28 points. Same trend seems to be appearing this year.

I genuinely think if you send high profile coaches in there to work with both the seniors and kids, you might start to win over some hearts and minds.

Even if there was a handy minor who wasn't quite ready to enter the KK county team, the extra physicality in football would bring him on and give him an edge compared to lads who would be relying on club hurling during that period in their development.

premierstone

hardybuck wrote: »

Yeah according to the NFL last year, the second worst team was London, and the third worst team was Leitrim. London beat KK by fourteen points, and Leitrim beat them by 28 points. Same trend seems to be appearing this year.

I genuinely think if you send high profile coaches in there to work with both the seniors and kids, you might start to win over some hearts and minds.

Even if there was a handy minor who wasn't quite ready to enter the KK county team, the extra physicality in football would bring him on and give him an edge compared to lads who would be relying on club hurling during that period in their development.

I made the point previously though, you can only help those who wish to be helped, there does not appear to be any desire amongst County Board officials, clubs or players to improve so said coaches would be wasting their time.

I dont knock KK for this attitude, but what does frustrateme/annoy me is their insistance on mascarading as a football team, their existance in championships is gone beyond a joke, fair enough you have no interest in football but stop wasting everyone elses time and money and pull out of the championship.

adrian522

The obvious solution is for Kilkenny to withdraw from these football competitions, they get no benefit from entering them and certainly I don't think Louth were too appreciative of travelling for a Wednesday night game in the U-21 championship such as we saw this week.

Take the Cavan approach of withdrawing from football for a period of say 5 years and come up with some cock and bull story about taking time to develop the game in the county and leave it at that.

Martin567

premierstone wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like, the dozen or more rubbish hurling teams as you describe them are rubbish compared to the elite, hoever they are competitive at their own level, KK footballers however are rubbish compared to the second worst team in football.And no one within the county board gives a toss, and no effort is made to improve, so the question is why do they bother to field teams at all? I'll give you a hint €€€€

Stop, take a minute, read what you've said and then try to convince yourself that you are making any sense. Because you're the one who is not comparing like with like.

This is the whole point of the argument which you still seem to be unable to grasp and the reason why this thread continues to go round and round in a circle. Div 4 in hurling and football can't be compared to each other because Div 4 football teams (other than Kilkenny) are capable of competing with Div 1 teams. There aren't really four tiers in football at all, as there are in hurling.

How many times does it need to said that the reason Div 4 hurling teams are 'competitive at their own level' is because they are all equally bad? Why should they get any credit for this? An alternative solution to the problem would be for Carlow, Tipperary, Waterford, etc, to completely abandon football. Without doing anything, Kilkenny would then be 'competitive at their own level' and much of the criticism would stop. Of course this would be a ridiculous solution but it does demonstrate how completely and utterly irrelevant the term 'competitive at their own level' actually is.

hardybuck

Martin567 wrote: »

Stop, take a minute, read what you've said and then try to convince yourself that you are making any sense. Because you're the one who is not comparing like with like.

This is the whole point of the argument which you still seem to be unable to grasp and the reason why this thread continues to go round and round in a circle. Div 4 in hurling and football can't be compared to each other because Div 4 football teams (other than Kilkenny) are capable of competing with Div 1 teams. There aren't really four tiers in football at all, as there are in hurling.

How many times does it need to said that the reason Div 4 hurling teams are 'competitive at their own level' is because they are all equally bad? Why should they get any credit for this? An alternative solution to the problem would be for Carlow, Tipperary, Waterford, etc, to completely abandon football. Without doing anything, Kilkenny would then be 'competitive at their own level' and much of the criticism would stop. Of course this would be a ridiculous solution but it does demonstrate how completely and utterly irrelevant the term 'competitive at their own level' actually is.

Hold on there now a second. Tipperary won an All Ireland minor in 2011, a Munster U21 in 2010 and are a Division 3 football team. Waterford in 2011 were a Div 3 football team and made the last the last 16 of the All Ireland last year, and have won a Munster U21 in the last 10 years as well as losing a couple of finals. I don't think its fair to suggest they should be brought into this argument in relation to 'abandoning football'.

hardybuck

premierstone wrote: »

I made the point previously though, you can only help those who wish to be helped, there does not appear to be any desire amongst County Board officials, clubs or players to improve so said coaches would be wasting their time.

I dont knock KK for this attitude, but what does frustrateme/annoy me is their insistance on mascarading as a football team, their existance in championships is gone beyond a joke, fair enough you have no interest in football but stop wasting everyone elses time and money and pull out of the championship.

Obviously lads don't want to play for a team that nobody cares about. If the team never gets a mention in the papers, if they're going to games and none of their neighbours are aware of it or wish them well, it'll take away from their involvement and discourage lads from giving it a shot.

Wicklow are obviously streets ahead of KK, but before Mick O'Dwyer came in they had trouble getting subs to fill out the squad for league games. They had very little support and the team struggled along.

Micko came in, and held trials. I think something like 200 lads turned up and they couldn't even handle all the interest. Suddenly there was great interest from local and national media, and supporters came out - many of them for the first time.

I think something like this should be tried in KK, even if it only slightly improves the situation.

Bogger77

premierstone wrote: »

Fcuk me that is patethic, do you think Coady would ease off in a hurling match if the roles were reverseed, like hell he would.

KK have often turned down the performance, once the game has been won against a "minnow", they almost got caught by a fightback by Westmeath a few years ago, because of it.
It's in no ones interests to destroy a team like the U21's were. Then again, Louth aren't useta winning.

Martin567

hardybuck wrote: »

Hold on there now a second. Tipperary won an All Ireland minor in 2011, a Munster U21 in 2010 and are a Division 3 football team. Waterford in 2011 were a Div 3 football team and made the last the last 16 of the All Ireland last year, and have won a Munster U21 in the last 10 years as well as losing a couple of finals. I don't think its fair to suggest they should be brought into this argument in relation to 'abandoning football'.

You've misunderstood my point. I know Tipp and Waterford have made great strides and fair play to them. I could have selected two different counties who would be more associated with hurling. The point is Kilkenny would become competitive if a few others counties stopped putting in such an effort at football. It's a ridiculous scenario but it is precisely what exists in hurling and yet, bizarrely, these teams are credited by some for being 'competitive at their own level'.

hardybuck

Martin567 wrote: »

You've misunderstood my point. I know Tipp and Waterford have made great strides and fair play to them. I could have selected two different counties who would be more associated with hurling. The point is Kilkenny would become competitive if a few others counties stopped putting in such an effort at football. It's a ridiculous scenario but it is precisely what exists in hurling and yet, bizarrely, these teams are credited by some for being 'competitive at their own level'.

Fair enough. I do think that more effort has gone into improving hurling in weak counties, and no doubt it was badly needed.

A national co-ordinator was appointed in the form of Paidi Butler. By all accounts he did a good job and made himself available to all.

There was a hurling twinning programme put together. Weak counties were paired with a strong county, who would send coaches and big names up there to offer advice and boost morale.

bruschi

Martin567 wrote: »

You've misunderstood my point. I know Tipp and Waterford have made great strides and fair play to them. I could have selected two different counties who would be more associated with hurling. The point is Kilkenny would become competitive if a few others counties stopped putting in such an effort at football. It's a ridiculous scenario but it is precisely what exists in hurling and yet, bizarrely, these teams are credited by some for being 'competitive at their own level'.

I know where you are coming from, but it wasnt a case of these hurling teams being reduced to a weaker level, they were already at that level. what you are saying is that it would take other counties to get worse and stop trying before parity, rather than Kilkenny get better, which should be what the answer is.

adrian522

hardybuck wrote: »

Fair enough. I do think that more effort has gone into improving hurling in weak counties, and no doubt it was badly needed.

A national co-ordinator was appointed in the form of Paidi Butler. By all accounts he did a good job and made himself available to all.

There was a hurling twinning programme put together. Weak counties were paired with a strong county, who would send coaches and big names up there to offer advice and boost morale.

I'd be in agreement with this, a lot of good work done in the weaker hurling counties in an effort to help them improve, the new championship structure is so much better, with realistic shot at silverware for most teams rather than dumping them all into the top level competition.

Martin567

bruschi wrote: »

I know where you are coming from, but it wasnt a case of these hurling teams being reduced to a weaker level, they were already at that level. what you are saying is that it would take other counties to get worse and stop trying before parity, rather than Kilkenny get better, which should be what the answer is.

That's true and of course the onus is on Kilkenny to get better. I don't seriously expect anyone else to get worse. I'm simply pointing out that it is wrong to credit Div 4 hurling teams for being competitive with each other in the past when it was simply the case that none of them were getting better.

In fairness, people should recognise that Kilkenny are faced with a unique problem in that, unlike the weak hurling teams, they don't have anyone to play at their own level while they attempt to gradually improve (if they attempt to do so).

breffni666

adrian522 wrote: »

The obvious solution is for Kilkenny to withdraw from these football competitions, they get no benefit from entering them and certainly I don't think Louth were too appreciative of travelling for a Wednesday night game in the U-21 championship such as we saw this week.

Take the Cavan approach of withdrawing from football for a period of say 5 years and come up with some cock and bull story about taking time to develop the game in the county and leave it at that.

This argument should not be between football and hurling but it SHOULD be about the Association and how its organised. The majority of county boards lean heavily toward football-fact. Hurling will never get a look in under these circumstances because the democratic will of the clubs in these counties will always have a veto over hurling development, the suits on county boards know this and don't care. There should be a separation of football and hurling administration. For the weaker hurling and football counties it should be directly from Croke Park. it would not be difficult. Take the BMW region for hurling. I stand corrected on the numbers but it goes like this, Sligo 8 clubs, Leitrim 5, Longford 7, Cavan 2, Monaghan 5, Fermanagh 4, Tyrone 6= 37ish clubs, which is the equal of 1 county board in most counties. Organise and admin directly from Croke Park. If county boards are not doing what they are supposed to be doing then pull their funding. You will soon find counties who had no interest in hurling bucking up their ideas as they don't like to lose money, money they were diverting to football in the first place.

Green Brigade

If Kilkenny were'nt so succesful at hurling, would people be having this conversation? Seems like begrudgery to me.

MrJoeSoap

Green Brigade wrote: »

If Kilkenny were'nt so succesful at hurling, would people be having this conversation? Seems like begrudgery to me.

People would. But not so many people.

JoeGil

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Do Louth have an U-21 hurling team? If they were to meet then that scoreline would be easily beaten by Kilkenny.

From my experience there are some great players in the country primary schools. The problem is that most of those players are also good at hurling. Once they hit a certain age the choice is pretty easy as to which sport to pursue.

Some decent players in the city as well and again hurling takes over.

I couldn't really tell you who is to blame. The county board is probably top of the list though.

I would agree that the county board is mainly to blame.

Hurling is a much more difficult game to play especially for areas with no tradition and also costs money for equipment. Yet almost every county puts out a team and tries their best.

Football is easy to play, requires no tradition or investment in equipment so it should be possible for every county to put out a reasonable team. When you look at London putting out a strong team with players spread over a huge area then the same should be possible for every county.

There should be a rule that if your football team gets beaten by more than 20 points then for every 3 points above that margin the equivalent hurling team has one point deducted for every game played in the championship. That would help Kilkenny to focus.

Martin567

JoeGil wrote: »

There should be a rule that if your football team gets beaten by more than 20 points then for every 3 points above that margin the equivalent hurling team has one point deducted for every game played in the championship. That would help Kilkenny to focus.

There should be a rule that all those who post on Boards.ie have at least a basic level of intelligence but that would probably be difficult to enforce also.

adrian522

JoeGil wrote: »

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Do Louth have an U-21 hurling team? If they were to meet then that scoreline would be easily beaten by Kilkenny.

From my experience there are some great players in the country primary schools. The problem is that most of those players are also good at hurling. Once they hit a certain age the choice is pretty easy as to which sport to pursue.

Some decent players in the city as well and again hurling takes over.

I couldn't really tell you who is to blame. The county board is probably top of the list though.

I would agree that the county board is mainly to blame.

Hurling is a much more difficult game to play especially for areas with no tradition and also costs money for equipment. Yet almost every county puts out a team and tries their best.

Football is easy to play, requires no tradition or investment in equipment so it should be possible for every county to put out a reasonable team. When you look at London putting out a strong team with players spread over a huge area then the same should be possible for every county.

There should be a rule that if your football team gets beaten by more than 20 points then for every 3 points above that margin the equivalent hurling team has one point deducted for every game played in the championship. That would help Kilkenny to focus.

If they applied that rule in reverse Waterford footballers would by in trouble... :-)

Mountainlad

JoeGil wrote: »

There should be a rule that if your football team gets beaten by more than 20 points then for every 3 points above that margin the equivalent hurling team has one point deducted for every game played in the championship. That would help Kilkenny to focus.

No there shouldn't, that is simply ludicrous.

What goes unnoticed is that Muckalee who won the KK county championship this year, lost to Skerries harps (bryan cullens club) in the leinster intermediate championship by a mere 4 points so there is obviously one or two handy players in the county.

Another option could be to form a national or regional league for all the weak football clubs that might be willing to participate similar to this new hurling development plan that the gaa has hatched.

Or perhaps if there is a good young footballer from Kilkenny then the borders should be opened up for him to play his football for another stronger county if they wished. lets say you have a lad from castlecomer near the laois /kildare border. if kildare or laois want him and he wants to play football and he has little hope of playing hurling for kilkenny then leave him off to play for them.

Syferus

Deleted User wrote: »

What goes unnoticed is that Muckalee who won the KK county championship this year, lost to Skerries harps (bryan cullens club) in the leinster intermediate championship by a mere 4 points so there is obviously one or two handy players in the county.

Another option could be to form a national or regional league for all the weak football clubs that might be willing to participate similar to this new hurling development plan that the gaa has hatched.

Or perhaps if there is a good young footballer from Kilkenny then the borders should be opened up for him to play his football for another stronger county if they wished. lets say you have a lad from castlecomer near the laois /kildare border. if kildare or laois want him and he wants to play football and he has little hope of playing hurling for kilkenny then leave him off to play for them.

That'd make sense, but it shouldn't be the focus. Here in Roscommon one of the largest towns, Ballaghadreen, plays its football in Mayo. The teams are made up of players who idnetify themselves as Mayo people and Roscommon people, but only the Mayo players are eligible to play for their county - if a Roscommon player wants to play at inter-county level he has no choice but either play for his county's biggest rivals or switch clubs entirely and leave his childhood friends behind.

Ballaghaderreen should, by all rights, be forced to play in Roscommon but the fact Roscommon players don't even have an option to play for their own county is as hideous a scandal as there is in the GAA.

They need tackle boarder issues with comprehensive laws that normalise these sorts of situations in all counties, Roscommon, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Offaly, wherever.

MrJoeSoap

adrian522 wrote: »

If they applied that rule in reverse Waterford footballers would by in trouble... :-)

In September 2008 they would have been, other than that I don't think they've much to worry about.

randd1

All this talk of cutting our funding because we get hammered in football is pure s****. Should funding be cut for every football county that gets a hammering in hurling? Those counties have the same attitude to hurling as we do at football.

And might I point out our county board balance the books every year in the black. We, as a county, do not over-spend, and therefore are not a drain on the GAA. Why aren't counties who over-spend to a ridiculous levels, like paying tens of thousands to managers, having their funding cut? That's a far bigger problem in my opinion. They're the ones hemorrhaging money out of the GAA, not Kilkenny. The funding Kilkenny get for football is miniscule compared to the pointless spending of some counties on nothing.

And just to say the obvious, this wouldn't even be an issue if Kilkenny weren't as successful as they are, or if the roles were reversed and we dominated football they way we do hurling.

The problem is football men are the dominant force in the GAA and and find this an aberration, while ignoring the exact same thing happening to hurling in football counties. Its alright for many football counties to behave like this, but not a hurling one. Another example of the pointlessness of the GAA not having individual hurling and football boards.

Martin567

randd1 wrote: »

All this talk of cutting our funding because we get hammered in football is pure s****. Should funding be cut for every football county that gets a hammering in hurling? Those counties have the same attitude to hurling as we do at football.

And might I point out our county board balance the books every year in the black. We, as a county, do not over-spend, and therefore are not a drain on the GAA. Why aren't counties who over-spend to a ridiculous levels, like paying tens of thousands to managers, having their funding cut? That's a far bigger problem in my opinion. They're the ones hemorrhaging money out of the GAA, not Kilkenny. The funding Kilkenny get for football is miniscule compared to the pointless spending of some counties on nothing.

And just to say the obvious, this wouldn't even be an issue if Kilkenny weren't as successful as they are, or if the roles were reversed and we dominated football they way we do hurling.

The problem is football men are the dominant force in the GAA and and find this an aberration, while ignoring the exact same thing happening to hurling in football counties. Its alright for many football counties to behave like this, but not a hurling one. Another example of the pointlessness of the GAA not having individual hurling and football boards.

Obviously, you're correct. But I'm sure this discussion will probably continue to go around in a circle when some simpleton will reply to you along the following lines - "At least the weak hurling teams are competitive at their own level"!

Gest

I think the Kilkenny County Board have a real moral responsibility to get Football going in the County. Not in the sense that they owe it to the GAA but they owe it to the children and young adults in the county to have an alternative to hurling.

I think the levels they get playing hurling is fantastic and wish every other county could get the same but for the people who don't hurl it would be great if football was taken serious.

rossie1977

bcb1 wrote: »

I think the clarification should really be made here that this is u21 football. I would ask what would the chances be for, say Leitrim u21 hurlers, against Kilkenny hurlers? Or even against say Wexford u21 hurlers?

how is that comparable exactly?? kilkenny/wexford/cork/galway etc are the strongest hurling teams, a more fairer comparison would be leitrim u21 hurlers vs say westmeath or roscommon u21 hurlers......

last year kilkenny senior footballers didn't even score in 70 minutes at home against leitrim (who at the time were ranked second worst of the irish counties), first time i ever remember that happening in the modern game

Kilkenny steal headlines by failing to register a single score
Leitrim 3-19
Kilkenny 0-0

Monday February 21 2011
Leitrim won the match, but Kilkenny made the headlines at Ballyragget yesterday.

This is the first time in the history of the modern game that a county has failed to register a single score in a league game.

The losers did have a couple of point chances and, indeed, one goal-scoring opportunity.

Leitrim led by 1-9 to no score at half-time and went into overdrive after the break.

andyman

Take it from somebody who has come through the "football" system in Kilkenny and with little interest, or ability, in playing hurling.

The attitude towards football in Kilkenny by managers is an absolute disgrace. I played under-age up until my first year at minor and when my club was knocked out of the minor football championship, the managers chat at the end was "right boys, hurling training next week" and absolutely nothing to do with what had happened out on that pitch. While everyone else was grand about it, I was still gutted because I love this game and to experience being knocked out of the Championship is never a nice feeling. Where was their support for me? There was none. This is the exact same everywhere in the county. They don't promote football, they see it as a "filler" between the hurling seasons and even in my local community where I'm relatively well known I was seen as some sort of second class citizen because I play football and not hurling.

There are a hell of a number of talented footballers in Kilkenny that would much rather play Junior B hurling, that's how bad it is down here.

unknown13

Just saw the score of the match against Fermanagh. To lose by 46 points is just down right a farce. It is disrespectful to their opponents that they don't care.

adrian522

Well who exactly are you blaming here and what do you think should be done? Its far too easy to come on here and say its a farce or whatever but I've yet to see any realistic suggestions.

As has been pointed out kilkenny are a long way off from being competitive in the league so should they just withdraw from the league for the foreseeable future?