Dentists as Drs

fulladapipes

Hi there:

I see a lot of dentists referring to themselves as 'Dr', which to me implies either a medical qualification or a holder of a doctorate (PhD etc.), yet they list themselves as having an undergraduate degree (BSc or equivalent).

So, I was wondering why this happens?; is it allowed by the Dentist Council or whoever guides these things or what do they say about it?; is it misrepresentation?; and do any other medical/tangential medical professions do similar?

Yes, I know the skill of the dentist is the main thing, but this I suppose is more a question of professional etiquette and I am just curious what others (and dentists) think?

FdP

cassi

Aren't dentists, Doctors of Dentistry?? So that would make them Dr's, no?!

fulladapipes

Not sure, but I don't think so. I would have thought they were mere mortals with undergraduate degrees.

We need an expert opinion on this one, methinks !

FdP

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Its a courtesy title for dentists (and for doctors BTW as they also only have primary degrees too). In some countries the primary degree is a D.D.S or doctor of dental science, but this is no different to the B.Dent.Sc given in this country. The GDC in the UK had their nickers in a twist about the title doctor a while back also.

I don't really care about it to tell you the truth and didn't refer to myself as so, but I don't have any real opinion about others using the title Dr. So long as they are good at their job and polite they can call themselves Emperor for all I care.

I never had a patient come in about a medical condition to me confused that I am anything but a dentist, so I assume the the ire some people have about this is not out of confusion.

fulladapipes

Thanks for that: skill and politeness are definitely the key attributes.

Yes medicos have a undergrad or two, and get the honorific. I didn't know that about dentists.

The reason I noted it is because I haven't been to the dentists in 12 years (a disgrace I know) and started researching where to go and suddenly noticed a proliferation of 'Drs' whereas previously I had noticed none, or very few.

BTW, I am going to the dentist on Friday!

FdP

Oral Surgeon

fulladapipes wrote: »

Hi there:

I see a lot of dentists referring to themselves as 'Dr', which to me implies either a medical qualification or a holder of a doctorate (PhD etc.), yet they list themselves as having an undergraduate degree (BSc or equivalent).

So, I was wondering why this happens?; is it allowed by the Dentist Council or whoever guides these things or what do they say about it?; is it misrepresentation?; and do any other medical/tangential medical professions do similar?

Yes, I know the skill of the dentist is the main thing, but this I suppose is more a question of professional etiquette and I am just curious what others (and dentists) think?

FdP

What shall we call you?? Chip??

cassi wrote: »

Aren't dentists, Doctors of Dentistry?? So that would make them Dr's, no?!

Technically, Mr. would be more appropriate as dentistry is a surgical profession....

Dianthus

I've yet to encounter any patient walking into a dental surgery expecting to be treated for any body part other than their mouth; I don't know how confusion/misrepresentation could arise in a professional setting. Horses for courses:rolleyes:
The amount of times patients say to the dentist "Yeah, I'm on loads of medications, sure what would YOU want to know about them for?"- although dentists have a rudimentary knowledge of medicine, patients really do tend to separate the two entities entirely. The link between general health and oral health is totally bypassed!
Anecdotally, the three people who I've come across who were obsessed to the point of distraction with always being referred to as "Dr", outside of their own workplace, all had PhD's in a non-medical field (history, engineering, can't remember the third).

fulladapipes

"What shall we call you?? Chip??"

Bit unfair that. I figured it was a reasonable question. I had noticed it about and reckoned I'd ask why. You can call me fulladapipes.

On a related note, seeing as there seem to be some dentists here, I am off to the dentist on Friday. I had originally booked one for the government PPS/PRSI oral examination (to which I am entitled), only to be told that it would be €40. This is for just the oral examination (no x-rays etc). Is it normal practice to charge for this government scheme oral examination?

FdP

Dianthus

Nope, dentists tend to charge patients privately and also claim from the government so as to make more money& scam people....:mad: It's a great practice builder, patients really appreciate it:D Arrgh.
What happens is that your PPS number is sent away for approval, if approval hasn't been received by the time your checkup comes round, you are charged the private fee, and then refunded when the approval comes through(sometimes days, sometimes weeks).
Ring the receptionist at your practice to find out if your PPS number has been authorised for approval for a free checkup under the PRSI. Don't worry, if you are entitled to it, you WILL get it....

fulladapipes

Thanks Dianthus.

I've checked and I am entitled to the oral examination under my PPS alright.

Anyway, I rang around and found a dentist closer to me that charges nothing for this PPS check up and will do a couple of x-rays also as I am a first time patient. No point paying for it if I can get it for free...

FdP

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Your were probably being charged for a cleaning, the PRSI examination does not include any cleaning or X-rays. Mark my words you will end up spending more than 40 on this free checkup.

fulladapipes

Hi there,

No I wasn't being charged for cleaning. The €40 was specifically just for the PPS check up. Cleaning would be more, which is fine as it's not covered. I am sure I'll have to spend more money with either of them (not having been for 12 years), but one dentist doesn't charge for the govt scheme and includes two free x-rays. Seems reasonable to go there then.

FdP

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Wait and see........

coylemj

fulladapipes wrote: »

Hi there,

No I wasn't being charged for cleaning. The €40 was specifically just for the PPS check up. Cleaning would be more, which is fine as it's not covered. I am sure I'll have to spend more money with either of them (not having been for 12 years), but one dentist doesn't charge for the govt scheme and includes two free x-rays. Seems reasonable to go there then.

FdP

Completely unrelated profession/industry but if you look over on the Motors forum you'll see what happens people who fall for the special offer and select a supplier based solely on the initial cost.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the tyre shops who offer a service for €79 and then stitch the customer up with brake pads, new battery, shock absorbers etc. thereby costing him more than he would have paid for a service in a main dealer.

Considering you haven't set foot in a dentist's surgery in 12 years, I think you're being very short-sighted - maybe you should get an eye test as well!

fulladapipes

According to Citizens' Information, "the Department pays the full cost of an oral examination once a year", so I object to paying an extra €40 for this seeing as I have already paid for this through my taxes. I'm not sure it's short-sighted to query fees which look above the norm.

Slightly stretching the comparison there with the motoring profession...however, not having been in 12 years means I know I have some work to be done, so I'm expecting that. However, are you suggesting that a professional dentist will try to recoup money from me in return for a free government sponsored oral examination through exaggerating other work that may or may not need to be done. Surely not? I expect more from Drs.

FdP

coylemj

fulladapipes wrote: »

Slightly stretching the comparison there with the motoring profession...however, not having been in 12 years means I know I have some work to be done, so I'm expecting that. However, are you suggesting that a professional dentist will try to recoup money from me in return for a free government sponsored oral examination through exaggerating other work that may or may not need to be done. Surely not? I expect more from Drs.

FdP

Not really stretching anything. You said that you're being offered two 'free' x-rays so clearly service providers in both the auto and dental service sectors believe in the tactic of enticing new customers with freebies.

You'll end up paying for the x-rays in one way or another.

bureau2009

Back to dentists calling themselves "Doctor".

My view is that this is a status issue, and dentists want to have this prestigious title. After all, anyone can be called "Mr", even me!

What I'm not happy about is why this practise is allowed AT ALL.

I can remember this issue being discussed 30 YEARS ago. My understanding is that the Dental Council have stated that only dentists with doctorates should use the title "Doctor".

It's an indication of the way we do business in Ireland that this practise is allowed to continue for a lifetime either officially or unoffically.

I am not impressed.

fulladapipes

I've been mulling over this last night too. The use of the Dr title implies a higher level of learning, study and research which clearly an undergraduate qualification is not.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

So should medical doctors not be called doctor until they get their MD postgraduate qualification (some 4-8 years after qualifying as a doctor if at all?)

There are numerous dentists that qualified in the royal college of surgeons back in the day that are medical doctors and dentist, back then dentistry came with a free medical degree also. They are dentists so what do you call them, no postgraduate qualifications.

Also the Bologna convention would state that any degree over 4 years (dentistry being a 3+2) would be a masters or above? So in the future a dental qualification will be a postgraduate qualification even though the course length and content will not change.

There are far more serious regulation and standards issues in dentistry than this.

fulladapipes

A postgraduate qualification such as a masters is still not a doctorate, and Ireland doesn't have an MD qualification as far as I know.

Anyway, "There are far more serious regulation and standards issues in dentistry than this." I don't know to be honest, like what?

I am quite concerned by the previous posts that imply the dentist offering the free PPS annual checkup will try to get more money from me by hard-selling other treatments in order to recoup money foregone. The counter-implication seems to be that the practice charging me €40 for what revenue.ie and Citizens' Information say is free are less likely to try to extract more money from me.

I can see why some people are afraid to go to the dentists!

FdP

btkm8unsl0w5r4

fulladapipes wrote: »

A postgraduate qualification such as a masters is still not a doctorate, and Ireland doesn't have an MD qualification as far as I know.

Consultancy training has a research component that you get a MD for.
http://www.ucd.ie/medicine/graduate/researchprogrammes/doctorofmedicinemd/

fulladapipes wrote: »

Anyway, "There are far more serious regulation and standards issues in dentistry than this." I don't know to be honest, like what?

No Specialist register for a number of specialities.
Dental Tourism regulation.
Dental Medical devices regulation.
Regulation in advertising and marketing.
Regulation and enforcement in cross infection control standards and radiation safety.
Regulation for the scope of dental practice...botox etc.
Regulation of non-dentists carrying out bleaching.
European wide standardisation of dental qualifications.
Pricing transparency.
Lack of medical card treatment.
Gutting of the PRSI scheme.
Special Need patient access to dental treatment.
HSE orthodontic waiting lists.
The trends towards higher decay rates in children.
The fluoride debate.
The Amalgam debate.
The general lack of knowledge amongst patients about oral cancer screening.
The practice of so called holistic dentistry.
The promotion of quality over low cost.
The discussion of the advent of chain dental clinics, and the ownership of dental clinics by non dentists.
The brain drain of skilled dentists out of Ireland.
etc. etc. etc........

fulladapipes wrote: »

I am quite concerned by the previous posts that imply the dentist offering the free PPS annual checkup will try to get more money from me by hard-selling other treatments in order to recoup money foregone. The counter-implication seems to be that the practice charging me €40 for what revenue.ie and Citizens' Information say is free are less likely to try to extract more money from me.

You have not been in 12 years, you need more than an annual checkup for 15 minutes. You need a complete diagnosis, X-rays and treatment plan. Defiantly a cleaning etc....

fulladapipes wrote: »

I can see why some people are afraid to go to the dentists!

And I could see where this thread was going the minute you started it. :rolleyes:

FdP[/QUOTE]

bureau2009

Jocelyn Tiny Thesis wrote: »

(RE: REGULATION & STANDARDS issues in dentistry...)

No Specialist register for a number of specialities.
Dental Tourism regulation.
Dental Medical devices regulation.
Regulation in advertising and marketing.
Regulation and enforcement in cross infection control standards and radiation safety.
Regulation for the scope of dental practice...botox etc.
Regulation of non-dentists carrying out bleaching.
European wide standardisation of dental qualifications.
Pricing transparency.
Lack of medical card treatment.
Gutting of the PRSI scheme.
Special Need patient access to dental treatment.
HSE orthodontic waiting lists.
The trends towards higher decay rates in children.
The fluoride debate.
The Amalgam debate.
The general lack of knowledge amongst patients about oral cancer screening.
The practice of so called holistic dentistry.
The promotion of quality over low cost.
The discussion of the advent of chain dental clinics, and the ownership of dental clinics by non dentists.
The brain drain of skilled dentists out of Ireland.
etc. etc. etc........

Nobody will be more delighted than me to see any advancement of dentistry in this country.

But if the issue of the use of "Doctor" title cannot be sorted out (after endless decades) then I don't have much hope for the above list.

fulladapipes

"You have not been in 12 years, you need more than an annual checkup for 15 minutes. You need a complete diagnosis, X-rays and treatment plan. Defiantly a cleaning etc.... "

Yep, I need a couple of fillings for sure and a clean etc. The x-rays I never knew about, but they're part of the €0 fee dentist (but not part of the €40 one). I am hoping the examination will be comprehensive - no reason why it shouldn't - and the experience will encourage me to get into a routine of 6 monthly checkups.

I am not sure why I've not gone for 12 years - combination of (minor) fear, and no pain ever. The oral cancer thing is worrying though (even though I don't smoke).

That's quite a comprehensive list of issues for the profession: best of luck with the government-inspired ones..!

FdP

opinion guy

The title doctor is not a protected title in Ireland AFAIK. Anyone can call themselves dotor if they feel like it.

Jocelyn Tiny Thesis wrote: »

So long as they are good at their job and polite they can call themselves Emperor for all I care.

So whats that you say.....I need a root canal Emperor Palpatine ????




Edit: I think I actually went to him when I was a kid - how I remember it anyhow :P

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Opinion Guy....use the floss, the floss is strong with you....

fulladapipes

I just called the Social Protection people about my eligibility for an eye test (might as well get everything done), and asked about the €40 charge for the PPS oral examination and was told that if the dentist is in the scheme (which they are) then under no circumstances should there be an additional charge for the PPS checkup. That's the word from the Dept.

Hmmm.

FdP

opinion guy

Jocelyn Tiny Thesis wrote: »

Opinion Guy....use the floss, the floss is strong with you....

Lol....drilling teeth with the light saber would require quite some skill and dexterity I'd imagine :P

Mingetoad

As far as I know almost all dentists (including everybody at every practice I've worked in) that work under the PPS system do not charge for intra-oral x-rays. The full title of the Oral Examination which the Department of Social Welfare pays for is Oral Examination (including all intra-oral x-rays) I think.
I think the department and indeed Dental Protection would take a dim view on people charging a patient for something they are claiming from the government.
For that reason I think it's unfair to tell anyone that they will somehow pay more at the dentist who is playing by the rules.
I am actually a bit shocked to hear dentists advocating charging a patient for what sounds like bitewings while also claiming an exam through PPS.

KTRIC

I once rang my dentist and was looking to book an appointment. Without thinking I asked could I make an appointment to see the doctor and then was corrected by the receptionist to be told he's not a doctor !!! I said he's a doctor of dentistry isn't he ?? queue some silence.....

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Mingetoad wrote: »

As far as I know almost all dentists (including everybody at every practice I've worked in) that work under the PPS system do not charge for intra-oral x-rays. The full title of the Oral Examination which the Department of Social Welfare pays for is Oral Examination (including all intra-oral x-rays) I think.
I think the department and indeed Dental Protection would take a dim view on people charging a patient for something they are claiming from the government.
For that reason I think it's unfair to tell anyone that they will somehow pay more at the dentist who is playing by the rules.
I am actually a bit shocked to hear dentists advocating charging a patient for what sounds like bitewings while also claiming an exam through PPS.

I actually dont think that the OP was told the 40 euro was for X-rays, more likely it was a refundable deposit as you may be also shocked to hear some people claim to be covered when they are not.

ballsymchugh

there are far more important things to worry about in dentistry than this.
http://www.dentistry.co.uk/news/3717

@bureau2009 - get on to your local td and see if you can wrangle a seat on the dental council, then when you sort out the Dr issue, you can start the ball rolling on the rest of that list. :rolleyes:

i had a disagreement with a technician last week who insisted on calling me doctor after i asked him not to. he just thought he was being respectful, which i'm sure he was.
in the UK, it's not banned, and it's a courtesy thing. while i have no problem with consultants and specialists who wish to call themselves Dr, i've only met one person who insisted on it. he thought it'd be a great way to pull when out. his personality shone out of his arse, with his ego.

as oral surgeon said above, it is more apt to call dentists 'Mr', since the BDS degree is a surgical one.
but then that opens another can of worms...
Mr is a title gained by medical surgeons on becoming a fellow of the royal college of surgeons. maybe your dentist doesn't want to be on first name terms with you.

personally, working in the uk where i've given up on telling people how to pronounce my name, i'm quite happy to be known as 'den'hiss man'.
as long as they don't call me mate....:mad:

First Aid Ireland

Do vets call themselves "Dr" too?

It's not something I object to, though I find it a little curious. any vets and dentists that i know don't refer to themselves as "Dr" though, but I wonder do they lose a competitive edge in terms of marketing, ie if a customer has a choice between a "Dr" dentist or a "Mr/Ms" dentist, will they think the "Dr" is more highly qualified? that would be my only concern.

opinion guy

The way i see it - if Gillian McKeith gets to call herself Doctor, then pretty much anyone else can

tvc15

Medical doctors refer to themselves ad 'Dr.' (until they become a consultant) even though they do not have a doctorate which is not correct but has always happened and would be very confusing if it didn’t to be honest so I guess they get a free pass.

Why would a dentist call themselves ‘Dr.’? I haven’t a clue, if they want to then why not nurses and physiotherapists and radiographers and veterinary assistants etc. none of them are doctors either

First Aid Ireland

tvc15 wrote: »

Medical doctors refer to themselves ad 'Dr.' (until they become a consultant)

consultants are still called "Dr".

some are called Mr, because they're surgeons, and historically surgeons in Ireland and the UK call themselves "Mr."

But the "Dr" Vs "Mr" thing in medicine isn't a question of seniority, it's an issue of what specialty you're in. For example, the most experienced cardiologists and neurologists in the country, for example, would still be called "Dr" unless they're professors. While some very junior surgical trainees would be called "Mr". There's very little to read into it, though a lot of people think that a doctor who's now a "Mr" must be very high ranking, which isn't always true.

digzy

bureau2009 wrote: »

Back to dentists calling themselves "Doctor".

My view is that this is a status issue, and dentists want to have this prestigious title. After all, anyone can be called "Mr", even me!

What I'm not happy about is why this practise is allowed AT ALL.

I can remember this issue being discussed 30 YEARS ago. My understanding is that the Dental Council have stated that only dentists with doctorates should use the title "Doctor".

It's an indication of the way we do business in Ireland that this practise is allowed to continue for a lifetime either officially or unoffically.


I am not impressed.

I knew when I saw this topic it wouldn't be long before there'd be a post like the one above.Nice to see opinion guy wading in too......im just waiting for the arrival of marti08:rolleyes:

Oral Surgeon

digzy wrote: »

I knew when I saw this topic it wouldn't be long before there'd be a post like the one above.Nice to see opinion guy wading in too......im just waiting for the arrival of marti08:rolleyes:

No that Troll is banned

opinion guy

digzy wrote: »

I knew when I saw this topic it wouldn't be long before there'd be a post like the one above.Nice to see opinion guy wading in too......im just waiting for the arrival of marti08:rolleyes:

Didn't realise i had a fan club. Have I said anything particularly controversial here ? Fitz and I just had the crack that's all

Oral Surgeon

opinion guy wrote: »

Didn't realise i had a fan club. Have I said anything particularly controversial here ? Fitz and I just had the crack that's all

Nah, your name makes you sound more controversial than you are...:)

opinion guy

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Nah, your name makes you sound more controversial than you are...:)

hahaha very good:D
In retrospect its not a name I'd chose again

Big_G

A medical 'doctor' is correctly called a physician or surgeon. This is where the confusion arises. A doctor is anyone who is learned. Doctor comes from the word docere meaning to teach, straight from Wikipedia. This whole argument is absolutely meaningless. Some people are more comfortable if you use the honorific on your letter head because they think you know what you are about. The honorific is increasingly meaningless anyway with chiropractors, optometrists, podiatrists and a famous 'nutritionist' using it.

This irritates some small people because they think it is confusing that dentists call use the honorific. That's just silly.

The degree I was awarded is a science degree but I was also awarded an honorary bachelor of arts in science I think because of the bologna convention grey area. So two degrees, but the second one is pretty meaningless.

I agree with Fitz that this is a non issue at the bottom of the list of regulatory issues. Probably behind application of tooth jewellery by non dentists. IE not a big deal.

Also let's keep this on topic please. A new thread is required for questions about other things. Thanks.

First Aid Ireland

i wonder if there were two dentists on one street, and one was called "Dr. Ima Toothpuller" and the other was called "Mr. Ima Toothpuller", would the public think the first guy was more qualified?

ballsymchugh

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

i wonder if there were two dentists on one street, and one was called "Dr. Ima Toothpuller" and the other was called "Mr. Ima Toothpuller", would the public think the first guy was more qualified?

the torment that must be going through their head when they battle with these quandaries..

First Aid Ireland

ballsymchugh wrote: »

the torment that must be going through their head when they battle with these quandaries..

Well it may not be an important issue for you, but I think it's a reasonable question to ask. i don't know if you're implying that the public shouldn't worry about how qualified their dentist is, but people like to be informed.

Maybe it confuses nobody. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the question.

ballsymchugh

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

Well it may not be an important issue for you, but I think it's a reasonable question to ask. i don't know if you're implying that the public shouldn't worry about how qualified their dentist is, but people like to be informed.

Maybe it confuses nobody. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the question.

Dr or Mr/Miss/Mrs has no implication on how qualified a GDP is. what matters is if their qualification is acceptable to the dental council. that is the only thing that the public should be worried about, not some petty little thing like this, and that is what it is.

and for the record, i mean GDP, as in the general dentist who does routine stuff all day. anyone with further qualifications that can affect their title is likely to have specialised.

Oral Surgeon

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

i wonder if there were two dentists on one street, and one was called "Dr. Ima Toothpuller" and the other was called "Mr. Ima Toothpuller", would the public think the first guy was more qualified?

Come on, what are the chances??:D

First Aid Ireland

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Dr or Mr/Miss/Mrs has no implication on how qualified a GDP is. what matters is if their qualification is acceptable to the dental council. that is the only thing that the public should be worried about, not some petty little thing like this, and that is what it is.

and for the record, i mean GDP, as in the general dentist who does routine stuff all day. anyone with further qualifications that can affect their title is likely to have specialised.

Yea we both know what the dental council thinks. My question is about what the public think. And not what the public SHOULD think, from a dentist's perspective.

First Aid Ireland

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Come on, what are the chances??:D

Fair point. of course their names aren't going to be identical. But the point I was making was that, all things being equal, does the title influence the public? I think it might. But that's not based on any kind of evidence.

bureau2009

It's interesting to note that the prevailing tone of responses is "This doesn't matter, it's a minor issue, don't worry about it, let's talk about something else".

That makes me wonder - why?

And looking at the current Golden Pages there are a massive number of dental practitioners using the title of "Doctor"............yet only a handful of dentists have doctorate qualifications..........

ballsymchugh

bureau2009 wrote: »

It's interesting to note that the prevailing tone of responses is "This doesn't matter, it's a minor issue, don't worry about it, let's talk about something else".

That makes me wonder - why?

And looking at the current Golden Pages there are a massive number of dental practitioners using the title of "Doctor"............yet only a handful of dentists have doctorate qualifications..........

really??? really???

because it makes no difference.
toodles.

/unsubscribes.

Oral Surgeon

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

Fair point. of course their names aren't going to be identical. But the point I was making was that, all things being equal, does the title influence the public? I think it might. But that's not based on any kind of evidence.

As I said before, I have Mr on my door, website and business cards as I think that dentistry is more surgical and oral surgery more surgical again...

Despite this I have patients call me Mr, Dr..... I always introduce myself by my first name and insist on being called by my first name as it builds trust and doesn't make me feel old....

I don't think that it influences the public significantly as there are bigger carrots and sticks to do that, price, website, recommendations or criticisms...