Keep abortion out of Ireland

HamletOrHecuba

muppeteer wrote: »

Indeed many see a huge difference between the debate for early term abortion and late term. Specifying which you are arguing for or against helps avoid confusion.

Do you not agree that there is a least large difference?

Personally I believe there is one of kind and not degree though that is a lonely position to hold amongst Roman Catholics today.

Benny_Cake

muppeteer wrote: »

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Interesting to see though that you support abortion "at any time" - do you mean right up until birth? Because most people who have a pro-choice outlook would have some manner of cut-off point.

Indeed many see a huge difference between the debate for early term abortion and late term. Specifying which you are arguing for or against helps avoid confusion.

Indeed, I'd be against abortion in general, but there is a big difference between a termination in the early stages and a termination in the late stages.

HamletOrHecuba

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Indeed, I'd be against abortion in general, but there is a big difference between a termination in the early stages and a termination in the late stages.

That would be my position.

But I wonder would it be best to legalize abortion here with strict time limits in order to cut down on late abortions happening in the UK?

muppeteer

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Indeed, I'd be against abortion in general, but there is a big difference between a termination in the early stages and a termination in the late stages.

Great, we have a common understanding that a fetus and its ethical status changes between early stages and late.
Why do you see early abortion as less wrong in the early stages? (I'm assuming here that as you see it as somehow less wrong while still being wrong, please correct me if I'm assuming incorrectly here)

muppeteer

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Do you not agree that there is a least large difference?

Personally I believe there is one of kind and not degree though that is a lonely position to hold amongst Roman Catholics today.

Totally, so much so that I think that the debate for early abortion should be kept somewhat separate from the debate on late abortion.

Benny_Cake

muppeteer wrote: »

Great, we have a common understanding that a fetus and its ethical status changes between early stages and late.
Why do you see early abortion as less wrong in the early stages? (I'm assuming here that as you see it as somehow less wrong while still being wrong, please correct me if I'm assuming incorrectly here)

No, your assumption is pretty much correct. I would see it as "less wrong" in the early stages simply because the fetus is at a less advanced stage, the potential to feel pain and so on would be reduced. More humane might be a better way of putting it. So in the early stage it would come down to ethics (and that dirty word-morality!) to me - that life is something truly precious, which is why I'm also opposed to the death penalty for example. That said, I'm in no position to judge anyone who chooses to have an abortion, there are some terrible situations that people find themselves in, but that would be my position.

GarIT

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Surely morality is what deals with what is right or wrong?

I don't feel it is, personally morals is something I can choose to have. I if something is wrong it's absolutely wrong. I could have no morals whatsoever but to kill someone would be wrong. I think that morals is to do with the individual while right and wrong is defined by society's opinions.

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Have none of your friends ever been seven no eight or nine months pregnant? That anyone could support abortion in the eighth month especially one claiming to be as compassionate as yourself just makes my mind boogle.

I'm still only young so only one has actually gone through pregnancy. I don't agree with late term abortions completely but I feel that the mothers right to choice is more important than how I feel about it.

Sin City wrote: »

An fotes can survive outside of the womb and independently of its mother at five or 6 months , so basically you think its fine to kill a baby

No I don't think that is ok, my views are complicated, to abort a pregnancy does not mean to kill the baby it means to end the pregnancy.

To explain my views the first thing that has to be mentioned is that normally with a late term abortion (as in to not allow the baby live) the mother must still give birth. It is my opinion that up to the point where the baby has a realistic chance to survive (around 22 weeks) abortion should be legal. I feel that after that the mother should have the right to abort the pregnancy by inducing birth at any time (after about 28 weeks). There should be a period in the middle where the baby could possible survive, but would likely not survive where nothing can be done. I think that from the time the baby can survive it has a right to but I also think that the mother should have to right to choose to carry the baby or not.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Not trying to be smart but surely morality (although we may differ on the source of morality) and the matter of right and wrong are inextricably linked? And in fairness, you can't be surprised to see God or religion being mentioned in the Christianity forum?

Interesting to see though that you support abortion "at any time" - do you mean right up until birth? Because most people who have a pro-choice outlook would have some manner of cut-off point.

I was referring to morality in the person and right or wrong in society.

I have quite strong views on this and get angry at times, sorry to anyone I offended. I do think however the legal discussion forum would be a much better place for this, as in reality it is a discussion about the potential laws.

I do mean right up to birth but as in aborting the pregnancy without terminating the foetus.

muppeteer

Benny_Cake wrote: »

No, your assumption is pretty much correct. I would see it as "less wrong" in the early stages simply because the fetus is at a less advanced stage, the potential to feel pain and so on would be reduced. More humane might be a better way of putting it. So in the early stage it would come down to ethics (and that dirty word-morality!) to me - that life is something truly precious, which is why I'm also opposed to the death penalty for example. That said, I'm in no position to judge anyone who chooses to have an abortion, there are some terrible situations that people find themselves in, but that would be my position.

What would you think of the ethical argument that a fetus at an early stage does not have any of the attributes of a human yet, and so, while you may be destroying a living human fetus, you are not destroying a living human person?
Indeed it would be far more humane than a late term abortion. As a fetus at a very early stage can't even feel pain or suffer at all then would it almost become an ahumane action so to speak?
I would also see the death penalty as killing a living human person too.

prinz

marienbad wrote: »

So why have you stopped using them then?

Relevance to the thread?

marienbad

prinz wrote: »

Relevance to the thread?

Well the relevance is simply the it shows that the process of being or becoming is a continuum and you by those decisions recognise that and that their are certain arbitrary points at which one can say ''life begins here''. You have choosen your arbitrary point . But the point you are are now was not always the case . Having given yourself the liberty to change your view , you wish to deny that right to everyone else and impose your latest view on them.

prinz

marienbad wrote: »

Well the relevance is simply the it shows that the process of being or becoming is a continuum and you by those decisions recognise that and that their are certain arbitrary points at which one can say ''life begins here''.

If you say so. To recap again, contraception =/= abortion

marienbad wrote: »

You have choosen your arbitrary point . But the point you are are now was not always the case.

I haven't chosen any 'arbitrary' point. Abortion is either abortion or it isn't. Trying to argue that someone using condoms is the same thing as abortion is a nonsense. Similarly cutting my toe nails isn't the same as shooting someone in the face..

marienbad wrote: »

Having given yourself the liberty to change your view , you wish to deny that right to everyone else and impose your latest view on them.

I have denied people the right to change their mind?

doctoremma

I saw the following hypothetical scenario on another forum (US Christian so maybe broadly comparable a readership) and wondered if it might be relevant here. It addresses the concept of human .v. person and how we all, however subconsciously, ascribe different values at different stages of life.

You enter a burning building and find a room which contains a crying and petrified child and a liquid nitrogen tank contaning frozen human embryos. You can only save one. Which is it?

My answer - the child, without a second thought.

Would you save the frozen embryos over a screaming chimpanzee (assuming you could manage the chimp without getting your face ripped off)?

My answer - the chimp, without a second thought.

Would you save your family dog or the embryos?

My answer - the dog.

I know it's a pretty simplified thought experiment but I reckon it might challenge a few people to reconsider when they recognise that a life, human or not, has value.

GarIT

I'd just like to throw in two examples of reasons why abortion should be legal a friend of mine that recently had a baby said that she would have had an abortion if she could. She was in college with a great career ahead of her but she had to drop out to be a full time mother. The bright career and life she could have had was ruined by her becoming pregnant. Although she did want an abortion she felt that once she was actually having the baby it was hers and she couldn't give it up. I feel she should have been allowed to have an abortion if she wished.

Then there's a girl I used to be friends with many years ago. She got hooked on drugs in her last year of school and didn't make it into college. Then she got into a downward spiral and she got pregnant paying her debit to a dealer. From talking to her friends she has said she also wanted an abortion.

I feel in both these cases the girls should have had a choice.

I also think its wrong for the people to be against abortion because their religion told them so. I know of at least one person that says "I don't see a problem with abortion but I oppose it because my church told me it is wrong". If you are against abortion because of your morals, because of your feelings or opinion on it, because you just think its wrong or if you have any reason why you don't support it that's fine, its even good that you are discussing it. If your only reason for objection is because your religion told you so please allow other people the freedom of choice and let them decide what religion what want to follow.

prinz

doctoremma wrote: »

I know it's a pretty simplified thought experiment but I reckon it might challenge a few people to reconsider when they recognise that a life, human or not, has value.

It doesn't. A human life always has value. That doesn't mean in emergencies you can't prioritise.

prinz

GarIT wrote: »

I also think its wrong for the people to be against abortion because their religion told them so..

What about people who are for abortion at least in part because their religion told them so? Do you object to them to?

GarIT

prinz wrote: »

What about people who are for abortion at least in part because their religion told them so? Do you object to them to?

I'm not aware of any such cases but yes I feel the same. I'm not religious so my religion tells me nothing. Your reasons for opposing or supporting abortion should be your own and not what someone else has told you to think.

Just to clarify if someone comes on and says I feel its wrong because I am a Catholic and that is what I believe that is perfectly ok in my book. What I don't agree with is someone saying I feel its ok to do but I oppose it because my religion said so. You should being your feelings to the discussion not the feelings you were told to have.

Interestingly while I was typing that I couldn't say I feel its right because I don't, I feel it can be acceptable.

prinz

GarIT wrote: »

I'm not aware of any such cases but yes I feel the same. I'm not religious so my religion tells me nothing. Your reasons for opposing or supporting abortion should be your own and not what someone else has told you to think.

Well if you aren't religious that's fine, but you have to remember you are on a Christian forum, so most people are religious. It's not much use to try and remove religion or faith from the debate on this forum. Secondly my reasons for opposing abortion are my own. Nobody told me what to think. Having faith or even being a member of a religion does not mean you are connected to some hive mentality incapable of independent thought or opinion.

HamletOrHecuba

GarIT wrote: »

I'd just like to throw in two examples of reasons why abortion should be legal a friend of mine that recently had a baby said that she would have had an abortion if she could. She was in college with a great career ahead of her but she had to drop out to be a full time mother. The bright career and life she could have had was ruined by her becoming pregnant.

Abortion isnt that expensive in England, girls from the flats in Dublin can afford them and the Ryan air tickets but you are saying that the college girl couldnt? There are no travel restrictions between here and the UK, if you take the boat to Holyhead they dont even ask you for your passport. I find it very hard to believe that story, almost impossible.

GarIT

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Abortion isnt that expensive in England, girls from the flats in Dublin can afford them and the Ryan air tickets but you are saying that the college girl couldnt? There are no travel restrictions between here and the UK, if you take the boat to Holyhead they dont even ask you for your passport. I find it very hard to believe that story, almost impossible.

I actually don't know why she didn't travel to the UK but she has told me that she would have had an abortion if she could here. To be fair she also said that now she had the baby she is happy she didn't have an abortion.

It could possibly have to do with her parents, she's only 19 now so she would have been 18 at the time, and while she could have done it herself here she would have had to explain to her parents why she was going to England, that's only a guess though.

GarIT

prinz wrote: »

Well if you aren't religious that's fine, but you have to remember you are on a Christian forum, so most people are religious. It's not much use to try and remove religion or faith from the debate on this forum. Secondly my reasons for opposing abortion are my own. Nobody told me what to think. Having faith or even being a member of a religion does not mean you are connected to some hive mentality incapable of independent thought or opinion.

The way to make what I said completely clear is when your independent thinking disagrees with religion, You should tell us about your independent thinking and not your religion. We all know how the religions see it. If someone has a conflict like that it would be interesting to hear.

hattoncracker

prinz wrote: »

If this poster had an issue I'm sure she'd mention it, but never mind I'll indulge. Question A: Yes. Question B: No Question C: Yes. I'm failing to see the connection though? By the way I haven'd judged anyone. The poster in question could be a charming young lady, that doesn't mean I have to like what she has done in the past. Just like nobody has to like what I've done in the past. They have however every right to think whatever they like.




These are the rights that it usually starts out as. Now late-term partial birth abortions are a right in parts of the US. Let's say we legalise abortion on demand up until week X. What happens when a lady arrives at week X+1? We're back at square one arguing about what right anyone has to decide for her, her womb her choice, etc etc.

I have oodles of charm. And it's not in the past, it's a part of me now, I made the choice and I live with it. It's not something you forget, it's something you have to accept as being part of who you are now, and you move on. That's how it is for me anyways, but I'm sure you can drag up an internet post about some young one who's had four abortions and uses it as contraception. That is not the majority of women. Your phrasing of "These are the rights that it usually starts out as" make me wonder exactly what you are comparing it to? Women's rights? Racial rights?

hattoncracker

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Abortion isnt that expensive in England, girls from the flats in Dublin can afford them and the Ryan air tickets but you are saying that the college girl couldnt? There are no travel restrictions between here and the UK, if you take the boat to Holyhead they dont even ask you for your passport. I find it very hard to believe that story, almost impossible.

How many girls in the flats in Dublin do you know who have had them, or are you just picking that out of the air?

Also, it is expensive. €600 is not something you can just pull out of the air, especially if you're sick or in college, or both. I had a job, and I had to take a loan out to pay for it.

prinz

hattoncracker wrote: »

I have oodles of charm. And it's not in the past, it's a part of me now, I made the choice and I live with it. It's not something you forget, it's something you have to accept as being part of who you are now, and you move on.

OK. As a matter of interest would you go through it again? You don't have to answer that I'm just genuinely curious.

hattoncracker wrote: »

That's how it is for me anyways, but I'm sure you can drag up an internet post about some young one who's had four abortions and uses it as contraception. That is not the majority of women.

It's not far off. The last NHS figures from the UK indicate about a third of women who got an abortion in 2009 (I'm not sure if the figures for 2010 are released yet AFAIK there is a delay of about 2 years) it was at least her second abortion.. and presumably they were the ones who either admitted it of their own accord, or the NHS could track. Presumably the figure is actually higher.

hattoncracker wrote: »

Your phrasing of "These are the rights that it usually starts out as" make me wonder exactly what you are comparing it to? Women's rights? Racial rights?

No. I'm comparing it to abortion 'rights', which is why the very next sentence expounded on abortion rights.

hattoncracker

prinz wrote: »

OK. As a matter of interest would you go through it again? You don't have to answer that I'm just genuinely curious.



It's not far off. The last NHS figures from the UK indicate about a third of women who got an abortion in 2009 (I'm not sure if the figures for 2010 are released yet AFAIK there is a delay of about 2 years) it was at least her second abortion.. and presumably they were the ones who either admitted it of their own accord, or the NHS could track. Presumably the figure is actually higher.



No. I'm comparing it to abortion 'rights'.

Well here's the Irish figures for women who have travelled to England for abortions, and about all of the abortion inducing drugs that were seized my customs on the way into Ireland. Have a read. It makes for interesting reading, especially the age brackets which will probably make you change the image in your mind of the typical woman who has an abortion.

http://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics

The answer to your question about going through it again is that I honestly don't know, my situation was very desperate, and if it was ever that desperate again, I may make that choice again.

I wouldn't want to ever experience that again, it's harrowing, terrifying and completely draining. But as I said in a previous post, I have no regrets but the secrecy for me was the worst part as I am generally a very honest person, and talking about my feelings is how I normally come to terms with things, and there are no support groups in Ireland for this so finding someone who understood how I felt was not possible. I felt, and still feel sometimes, so lonely when I think about it.

I have heard one story about a woman who had more than one abortion, but not because she used it as contraception. It was pretty terrible for her. A lot of women who have more than one abortion are married women who already have children and cannot afford another one.

enceladus1

people should have the option .. late terminations should never be allowed, but the clinic is able to see how far into the pregnancy the girl is and if this person choses to have an abortion it is there choice and if they can deal with this every day of their life then it is there choice . i personally would prefer the option but wouldnt do it , it would cause me too much emotional distress if i did make that choice .... celebacy is the only way forward i guess !! ha

prinz

hattoncracker wrote: »

.. there are no support groups in Ireland for this so finding someone who understood how I felt was not possible. I felt, and still feel sometimes, so lonely when I think about it..

You might try one of these.. at least they offer counselling. Perhaps they could put you in touch with a group of others.

http://www.abortionaftercare.ie/

gimmebroadband

Another support group is Rachel's Vineyard.

http://www.rachelsvineyard.ie/

hattoncracker

Thanks for all the recommendations.
I don't think I could do that, I get quite anxious at the thought of telling people, I've left it too long, I think. When I told one of my friends that I was considering it he told me that if I lost any future children it would be karma, and I didn't deserve to be a mother and that I was a murderer. My boyfriends entire family and all his friends know, they would not judge me for it. My mother, and one friend know, I can't even tell my sister, the rest can never know as my other best friend is Christian and told me she would never speak to me again if I had ever had one. It's too much of a risk for me. I couldn't handle the people I love turning their backs on me.

prinz

hattoncracker wrote: »

I couldn't handle the people I love turning their backs on me.

That's unfortunate. Please don't assume that's the reaction you'd get from all Christians. I don't agree with abortion, but I don't agree with turning my back on people who need help either. Even picking up the phone to one of them and talking through it over the phone might be of benefit when you are going through a low.

hattoncracker

prinz wrote: »

That's unfortunate. Please don't assume that's the reaction you'd get from all Christians. I don't agree with abortion, but I don't agree with turning my back on people who need help either. Even picking up the phone to one of them and talking through it over the phone might be of benefit when you are going through a low.

Maybe... When you've trained yourself never to say the words it's hard to get them out, if you know what I mean?
To be perfectly frank, and I'm not attacking anyone here but I've read every post on this thread, I've followed it from the very beginning. Apart from the thread I started myself, this is the only thread on boards about abortion really, and reading some of the posts on here, it's not exactly the most inviting place to share your stories. That's why I started my own, as a thread for women to post their stories in a safe environment where no abuse would be tolerated, so we would feel less alone. I heard whitemocha live on the radio when she was talking about her experiences, obviously her reasons were a lot more urgent and different to mine, I almost cried listening to her.

Then when I came back to this thread, I realised that there was not one woman on this thread who had posted her story for you to read. Even if it is hard for me to write about, and it is, I think you really need to fully understand as much as is humanly possible what it is like on the flipside of the coin, why women fight for the right for abortion, and why it is so important that they get support and don't get judged no matter what choices they make.