Keep abortion out of Ireland

flerg

Quite!
Let the British tax payer keep paying for it. (sic)

scidive wrote: »

A message on http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com asks the Irish people to keep abortion out of Ireland

prinz

marienbad wrote: »

You are getting very personal with this poster, so may I ask you - have you had sex outside marriage ? Do you masturbate ? have you ever used contraception ? These questions may seem over the top , but since you are making judgements on other peoples decisions and choices it is only fair that we know from whence you speak.

If this poster had an issue I'm sure she'd mention it, but never mind I'll indulge. Question A: Yes. Question B: No Question C: Yes. I'm failing to see the connection though? By the way I haven'd judged anyone. The poster in question could be a charming young lady, that doesn't mean I have to like what she has done in the past. Just like nobody has to like what I've done in the past. They have however every right to think whatever they like.

Morbert wrote: »

Many abortions take place in the first day or two, either through the morning-after pill, or the contraceptive pill. The rest, as koth has pointed out, are primarily carried out within the first trimester. These are the abortion rights people are arguing in favour of. These are the rights that the anti-abortion side must address.

These are the rights that it usually starts out as. Now late-term partial birth abortions are a right in parts of the US. Let's say we legalise abortion on demand up until week X. What happens when a lady arrives at week X+1? We're back at square one arguing about what right anyone has to decide for her, her womb her choice, etc etc.

marienbad

prinz wrote: »

If this poster had an issue I'm sure she'd mention it, but never mind I'll indulge. Question A: Yes. Question B: No Question C: Yes. I'm failing to see the connection though?




These are the rights that it usually starts out as. Now late-term partial birth abortions are a right in parts of the US. Let's say we legalise abortion on demand up until week X. What happens when a lady arrives at week X+1? We're back at square one arguing about what right anyone has to decide for her, her womb her choice, etc etc.

Then if you used contraception were you not interfering with the right to life ?

muppeteer

prinz wrote: »

These are the rights that it usually starts out as. Now late-term partial birth abortions are a right in parts of the US. Let's say we legalise abortion on demand up until week X. What happens when a lady arrives at week X+1? We're back at square one arguing about what right anyone has to decide for her, her womb her choice, etc etc.

If she arrives at X+1 then it will be dealt with under a different regime of the law as X has been judged as a cut off point. The debate about allowing abortions after X can be made on different considerations. There is no need for a slippery slope type argument.

prinz

marienbad wrote: »

Then if you used contraception were you not interfering with the right to life ?

No, it's not quite the same as aborting after the fact.
You'll notice I never said anything about the other poster's use of contraception either.

Having said that I don't use non natural forms of contraception now. Haven't in years. I made mistakes in the past, I can admit them.

prinz

muppeteer wrote: »

If she arrives at X+1 then it will be dealt with under a different regime of the law as X has been judged as a cut off point. The debate about allowing abortions after X can be made on different considerations. There is no need for a slippery slope type argument.

So who gets to decide at what point X is?

muppeteer

prinz wrote: »

So who gets to decide at what point X is?

Who gets to decide at what point we can vote?

prinz

muppeteer wrote: »

Who gets to decide at what point we can vote?

Good stuff. So we as a society decide. Now we can agree that we all have a say.

muppeteer

prinz wrote: »

Good stuff. So we as a society decide. Now we can agree that we all have a say.

We as part of a republican society, limited by law, we all have a say.

qrrgprgua

muppeteer wrote: »

We as part of a republican society, limited by law, we all have a say.

Not all laws passed by Societies over time are morally right. Abortion is one of them. Thankfully the Irish People on more than one occasion have rejected abortion.

GarIT

Why has this become a debate on religion, its about rights or no rights. A non religious person looking for an abortion doesn't care what your god thinks.I completely support abortion at any time. And if your god is real I rather go to hell then have to suffer in heaven by being near that stuck up, judgemental, control freak. This has nothing really to do with god or morals, it weather or not its murder and weather its right or wrong.

muppeteer

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Not all laws passed by Societies over time are morally right. Abortion is one of them. Thankfully the Irish People on more than one occasion have rejected abortion.

And many would say that prohibition on abortion is not morally right. Asserting abortion is one of them does not make it so.

HamletOrHecuba

GarIT wrote: »

This has nothing really to do with god or morals, it weather or not its murder and weather its right or wrong.

Surely morality is what deals with what is right or wrong?

PDN

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Surely morality is what deals with what is right or wrong?

It's the weather apparently.

marienbad

prinz wrote: »

No, it's not quite the same as aborting after the fact.
You'll notice I never said anything about the other poster's use of contraception either.

Having said that I don't use non natural forms of contraception now. Haven't in years. I made mistakes in the past, I can admit them.

But that is just you deciding your cut off point though is it not ? and the fact that you no longer use non natural forms , as you call them, shows you recognise that.

Would that be a correct summation ?

prinz

marienbad wrote: »

But that is just you deciding your cut off point though is it not?

No, contraception is not the same thing as abortion. In anyone's world.

marienbad wrote: »

Would that be a correct summation ?

No.

Sin City

Contraception does not equate to abortion

A quick biology lesson for some of ye

The sperm has to combine with the egg to concieve and start a life

If any of these components are missing life will not occur

So my bedroom floor is not a site of mass genocide

How ever abortion is where the sperm and the egg combined and the life process begins

HamletOrHecuba

Sin City wrote: »

How ever abortion is where the sperm and the egg combined and the life process begins

While Im morally opposed to abortion at any stage, at an early stage of the pregnancy I just cant consider it to be equal to murder- given that most fertilized eggs dont make it into the womb saying that life begins at conception is saying that the majority of human souls never make it beyond a week.

HamletOrHecuba

GarIT wrote: »

.I completely support abortion at any time

Have none of your friends ever been seven no eight or nine months pregnant? That anyone could support abortion in the eighth month especially one claiming to be as compassionate as yourself just makes my mind boogle.

Sin City

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

While Im morally opposed to abortion at any stage, at an early stage of the pregnancy I just cant consider it to be equal to murder- given that most fertilized eggs dont make it into the womb saying that life begins at conception is saying that the majority of human souls never make it beyond a week.

True enough, I admit it was a overly simplistic example

Ok lets say zygot forming and in the womb itself

wellboytoo

How many Angels can you get on the head of a pin again?

Sin City

GarIT wrote: »

, I completely support abortion at any time.

An fotes can survive outside of the womb and independently of its mother at five or 6 months , so basically you think its fine to kill a baby

Sin City

wellboytoo wrote: »

How many Angels can you get on the head of a pin again?

7

muppeteer

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

While Im morally opposed to abortion at any stage, at an early stage of the pregnancy I just cant consider it to be equal to murder- given that most fertilized eggs dont make it into the womb saying that life begins at conception is saying that the majority of human souls never make it beyond a week.

Why do you see a difference between a fertilised egg and say an implanted embryo?

Sin City

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function
in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by
means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.”
this definition stresses the interaction of parts in the context of a coordinated whole as
the distinguishing feature of an organism.

Based on this definition, it has been proposed that human beings (including embryonic human beings) can be reliably distinguished from human cells using the same
kinds of criteria scientists employ to distinguish different cell types: by examining
their composition and their pattern of behavior.




A human being (i.e., a human organism) is composed of characteristic human parts (cells, proteins, RNA, DNA), yet
it is different from a mere collection of cells because it has the characteristic behavior
of an organism: it acts in an interdependent and coordinated manner to “carry on
the activities of life.” In contrast, collections of human cells are alive and carry on the
activities of cellular life, yet fail to exhibit coordinated interactions directed towards
any higher level of organization. Collections of cells do not establish the complex,
interrelated cellular structures (tissues, organs, and organ systems) that exist in a
whole, living human being. Similarly, a human corpse is not a living human organism, despite the presence of living human cells within the corpse, precisely because
this collection of human cells no longer functions as an integrated unit.
Is a human zygote a human organism? For developing humans, the behavior and
structures associated with adult stages of life are not yet fully manifest (embryos
neither look like nor act like mature human beings). However, developing human
beings are composed of characteristic human parts and they exhibit a human pattern
of developmental behavior. he key feature of a human pattern of development is its
organization towards the production of a mature human body

]Maureen L. Condic
Senior Fellow
Westchester Institute for Ethics & the Human Person
Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy
at the University of Utah School of Medicine

marienbad

prinz wrote: »

No, contraception is not the same thing as abortion. In anyone's world.



No.

So why have you stopped using them then ?

Benny_Cake

GarIT wrote: »

Why has this become a debate on religion, its about rights or no rights. A non religious person looking for an abortion doesn't care what your god thinks.I completely support abortion at any time. And if your god is real I rather go to hell then have to suffer in heaven by being near that stuck up, judgemental, control freak. This has nothing really to do with god or morals, it weather or not its murder and weather its right or wrong.

Not trying to be smart but surely morality (although we may differ on the source of morality) and the matter of right and wrong are inextricably linked? And in fairness, you can't be surprised to see God or religion being mentioned in the Christianity forum?

Interesting to see though that you support abortion "at any time" - do you mean right up until birth? Because most people who have a pro-choice outlook would have some manner of cut-off point.

muppeteer

Sin City wrote: »

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function
in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by
.....
.....snip....
.....
beings are composed of characteristic human parts and they exhibit a human pattern
of developmental behavior. he key feature of a human pattern of development is its
organization towards the production of a mature human body

]Maureen L. Condic
Senior Fellow
Westchester Institute for Ethics & the Human Person
Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy
at the University of Utah School of Medicine

Not sure what the relevance of the above is, as what is says is not controversial.

muppeteer

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Interesting to see though that you support abortion "at any time" - do you mean right up until birth? Because most people who have a pro-choice outlook would have some manner of cut-off point.

Indeed many see a huge difference between the debate for early term abortion and late term. Specifying which you are arguing for or against helps avoid confusion.

xcaramellox

I know this thread seems to be aimed at many religious beliefs but I'm pro abortion, I believe a woman should have a right to choose. For some people it could be the hardest decision of their lives but sometimes it's the right one. I think there should be a fine line though. I think it should be legal but not as an easy way out for every careless teenager. But I am so so strongly against kids having kids.

To me, Children deserve the best quality of life, and even on the pill and using condoms you can still have that risk of getting pregnant, but if you aren't ready for a child, you don't have a steady income, or mentally are not ready, maybe you want to be settled first whatever the reason, you should be allowed to make that choice. It doesn't mean it's always easy but personally if some how it happened to me, I would like the choice I want a family and a house and that great life but if it happened now, it would be no way for me or the child to live.