Keep abortion out of Ireland

hattoncracker wrote: »

First of all, that's not an aborted baby, thats a child that was put in a dumpster after birth.

Link?

hattoncracker wrote: »

I've already had my abortion, I know the ugly truth of it, I know how horrible it is....

It's always hard to reconcile tales of how horrible and terrible it is with the fact that for roughly a third of women having an abortion in the UK in any given year it is at the very least her second time.

hattoncracker wrote: »

As soon as sex is over, I have no say in my future, no control over my body, and no choice.....

You had a say. You chose to have sex. We're not in a world where sex is an act that is completely deprived of consequences. What say did the subject of your abortion have? What control did it have? What choice did it have? What future did it have? Basically it boils down to me, me, me, myself, I, me, me........

hattoncracker wrote: »

Abortion will be legal in Ireland. Maybe not today, not tomorrow but sometime.

What a noble aim.

Keylem wrote: »

Here is the Scriptures on Abortion.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/abortion

Aren't you being self-righteous condemning a Christian for following the teachings of Christ!

From your link: This applies the lex talionis or "law of retribution" to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury

The injury stated in the Bible verse quoted (Ex. 21:22–24) can quite easily be read as the loss of the child to the woman, not necessarily the loss of life to the child itself, so this is a very flimsy basis to work off.
Then there is the even more tenuous connection that "the body without spirit is dead (James 2:26)" means that "spirit" is the same thing as a 'soul' and must somehow therefore enter the body at the conception of life, which is itself based in the concept of original sin, based on that article's logic at any rate.

Not only that but it's interesting that no specific mention of abortion occurs in the direct speech or even indirect speech of Jesus himself. Not even in any of the books of the Bible. They only apparently appear in the works of other Christian scholars and writers no earlier than 70AD, which is also around the time it's agreed a lot of the books of the Bible itself were coming together.

As for being self-righteous, I allow anything and everything to be up for debate, so no, I am not being self-righteous in the way that I claimed gimmebroadband to be. Furthermore, I am neither Christian nor do I even remotely accept the notion of sin, so even if you were to accuse me of committing such a sin I would merely claim your rules don't apply to me, apart from the fact that I consider them to be morally abhorrent.

prinz wrote: »

You had a say. You chose to have sex. We're not in a world where sex is an act that is completely deprived of consequences. What say did the subject of your abortion have? What control did it have? What choice did it have? What future did it have? Basically it boils down to me, me, me, myself, I, me, me.........

Modern society agrees, for the most part, that a woman should have a choice as to whether to bring a life into this world or not. That may or may not be a selfish choice, but how dare you condemn anyone for choosing that they do not want to do so. Having sex does not automatically mean that a woman has signed an irrevocable contract with society that should a pregnancy ensue, wanted or unwanted, that woman will see it through. The woman's choices always outweigh any potential choice a non-sentient group of cells could ever make, and so they should. Who are you to force the burden of responsibility onto someone else where you have no right to do so?

What say did the subject of your abortion have? The 'subject' was not a person.
What control did it have? It could not have had any.
What choice did it have? Regardless of the fact that it could not make one, it's right to a choice is below that of the woman.
What future did it have? Irrelevant.

We are not talking about a sentient being that magically springs fully functional and immediately to life at the moment of conception. We are talking about a biological organism that ever so gradually builds up characteristic after characteristic that, when looked at as a complete collection, or even a slightly incomplete collection, we regard as a human being with inalienable rights afforded by society. When that resulting human being requires care and dedication and nurturing and entails a whole host of implications for it's carer(s), you'd better be damn sure that we'll give them the right up to a certain point to say, "No, sorry. I cannot commit to this in the long term, whether through a lack of desire or the lack of means to do so. I want off this ride."

prinz wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

First of all, that's not an aborted baby, thats a child that was put in a dumpster after birth.

Link?

hattoncracker wrote: »

I've already had my abortion, I know the ugly truth of it, I know how horrible it is....

It's always hard to reconcile tales of how horrible and terrible it is with the fact that for roughly a third of women having an abortion in the UK in any given year it is at the very least her second time.

hattoncracker wrote: »

As soon as sex is over, I have no say in my future, no control over my body, and no choice.....

You had a say. You chose to have sex. We're not in a world where sex is an act that is completely deprived of consequences. What say did the subject of your abortion have? What control did it have? What choice did it have? What future did it have? Basically it boils down to me, me, me, myself, I, me, me........

hattoncracker wrote: »

Abortion will be legal in Ireland. Maybe not today, not tomorrow but sometime.

What a noble aim.

I chose to have sex, and I chose to puke my pill, and I chose to have an abortion because I knew it was unfair to have a baby that I could not give the very best of everything to. I was not financially or emotionally ready, and I would not be able for adoption, this was my choice. You dont have to like it. You just have to stop thinking you have any control over me making it.

hattoncracker wrote: »

I chose to have sex, and I chose to puke my pill....

So granted there's a number of choices and decisions that you took all on your own right there. It's amazing how your right to choice really only kicks in afterwards. I mean beforehand you had plenty of choices and chose badly.

hattoncracker wrote: »

I knew it was unfair to have a baby that I could not give the very best of everything to.

Valid in an ideal world. Nonsense in the real world. A tiny, tiny, tiny, miniscule fraction of the parents in this world are in ever the position to "give the very best of everything" to their children.

hattoncracker wrote: »

I was not financially or emotionally ready, and I would not be able for adoption, this was my choice.

So you weren't equipped in a number of ways to deal with the consequences of sex. Should you have been having sex to begin with? Have you ever thought about you financial or emotional ability to deal with HIV for example? Not wishing it on anybody but can you see my point? You were putting yourself in that position.

hattoncracker wrote: »

You just have to stop thinking you have any control over me making it.

Oh, so you can tell me what to think, but noone can tell you what to do? I see. Well that learned me as they say. As for control over the choices you make, you're right I have none, no more than I had control over the choices of the three young animals who stamped that Lukasz Rzeutko to death. I do however have control (to some degree at least) over what our society has to say on the matter.

Sin City wrote: »

Thats sick man

Seriously

There is no need for shock tactics in a ethical debate

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Its really sad.. But its the reality.. There is the motion to de-humanise abortion. but abortion is that.. its exactly that.. Where do you think the Kids go?


What do UK clinics say..

All hospitals and clinics in the UK have strict guidelines and procedures regarding what happens to the foetus after abortion. If this is something you would like to know you can always ask the doctor or the nurse when you attend the hospital or clinic.

prinz wrote: »

dj357 wrote: »

Well done. You've just insulted the intelligence and the integrity of every single woman who feels they have a right to choose when, and if, to have a child..

I did? I think rather it was you when you described the predicament they find themselves as choosing to "I want off this ride".. If that's the approach you take to unwanted pregnancies then I don't think you should be trying to plant your flag on the high moral ground.

dj357 wrote: »

When you wrote off her far from inconsequential choice as merely deciding whether or not she wanted to be inconvenienced or not. You wrote off a heart-wrenching decision as merely a selfish whim. That sounds like condemnation to me. Apologies if I mistook it as such...

I was merely reflecting the nature of the post I was responding to. I've had a quick count there and came to 13 occurences of the word "I" or "my". Forgive me for getting the impression there was some self-centredness going on.

dj357 wrote: »

What I am arguing is that yes, you have the right to play Russian Roulette as many times as you want, but also have the right to play it with blanks, you have the right to play it with empty chambers, you even have the right to say, "Ok, yeah, actually, I've just realised that the bullet that just issued from that gun will result in unwanted bloodshed, so I'm just going to move my head out of the way before I get hit." The metaphor stinks, but it's serviceable..

...and you have the right to chose not to have sex. You have the right to be sterilised. You have the right not to engage in risky sexual behaviour. You have the right to give due regard to contraception. You have the right to take precautions for your own health and wellbeing. You have all those rights and choices before anyone gets pregnant to begin with, just like you have the right to change the rules of Russian roulette as you have pointed out. You do not have the right to take a dustpan and brush, sweep up whats left of half your skull and piece it back together with sellotape and pretend like nothing happened.

The reason I used the word I is because there are no other women on this thread who have had abortions.. And if you want to debate a subject you're better off debating with someone who has first hand experience.

koth wrote: »

The picture is of a newborn toddler so it has nothing to do with the reality of abortion.

in the UK every year there are abortion up to 22 weeks like this one done in the UK at 22 weeks.

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IMAGE REMOVED AS REQUESTED____

Abortion's legal in the North right?
If that's true, then what does it matter if it's legal here or not? People who want it done do it on foreign soil and it remains illegal here, everybody's happy right?

Ambient Occlusion wrote: »

Abortion's legal in the North right?
If that's true, then what does it matter if it's legal here or not? People who want it done do it on foreign soil and it remains illegal here, everybody's happy right?

Its not legal at all on the Island of Ireland north or south. And hopefully will remain so.

prinz wrote: »

I did? I think rather it was you when you described the predicament they find themselves as choosing to "I want off this ride".. If that's the approach you take to unwanted pregnancies then I don't think you should be trying to plant your flag on the high moral ground.

Given that I wasn't trying to establish high ground of any kind, my tame metaphor of a rollercoaster ride, a situation in which someone is carried along a preordained path with not a huge amount of control over their situation seems fairly excusable in the face of your offensive scenario whereby a woman flippantly views the life of an already born, full term, baby as something that can simply be handed back into the shop with no consequences.

prinz wrote: »

...and you have the right to chose not to have sex. You have the right to be sterilised. You have the right not to engage in risky sexual behaviour. You have the right to give due regard to contraception. You have the right to take precautions for your own health and wellbeing. You have all those rights and choices before anyone gets pregnant to begin with, just like you have the right to change the rules of Russian roulette as you have pointed out. You do not have the right to take a dustpan and brush, sweep up whats left of half your skull and piece it back together with sellotape and pretend like nothing happened.

Discarding the metaphor, none of this means that you have the right to say "sorry, once implantation happens, you're along for the ride."

prinz wrote: »

So granted there's a number of choices and decisions that you took all on your own right there. It's amazing how your right to choice really only kicks in afterwards. I mean beforehand you had plenty of choices and chose badly.



Valid in an ideal world. Nonsense in the real world. A tiny, tiny, tiny, miniscule fraction of the parents in this world are in ever the position to "give the very best of everything" to their children.



So you weren't equipped in a number of ways to deal with the consequences of sex. Should you have been having sex to begin with? Have you ever thought about you financial or emotional ability to deal with HIV for example? Not wishing it on anybody but can you see my point? You were putting yourself in that position.



Oh, so you can tell me what to think, but noone can tell you what to do? I see. Well that learned me as they say. As for control over the choices you make, you're right I have none, no more than I had control over the choices of the three young animals who stamped that Lukasz Rzeutko to death. I do however have control (to some degree at least) over what our society has to say on the matter.

You are getting very personal with this poster, so may I ask you - have you had sex outside marriage ? Do you masturbate ? have you ever used contraception ?

These questions may seem over the top , but since you are making judgements on other peoples decisions and choices it is only fair that we know from whence you speak.

The discussion is veering off into nonsense (again).

We are not debating whether or not Neonaticide/late-term abortion should be legal. Everyone agrees that it shouldn't be (If someone doesn't, please say so).

Many abortions take place in the first day or two, either through the morning-after pill, or the contraceptive pill. The rest, as koth has pointed out, are primarily carried out within the first trimester. These are the abortion rights people are arguing in favour of. These are the rights that the anti-abortion side must address.

You all seem to think that making this decision was as easy as deciding what to have for breakfast.

When I was younger, I never in my life dreamt that I would have to make a decision like that. I always thought I would be in a position to take care of a child if I ever had one, and that it would have parents that loved it. I know I'll be a good mother one day. I have plenty to offer a child, I'm smart, and I am very hard working and patient, so teaching my kid the alphabet, or helping them with homework would be something I'd enjoy. I can cook, and do all the normal adult things that a person of 25 should be able to do.

But I couldn't offer it a home, or money for food, clothes or anything else. Love doesn't buy food, and You can't pay the rent with kisses.

I am still devastated at the road not taken, but sometimes when I think about where I would be now, with my baby in my arms, I know I would still be wondering where the next meal was coming from. And I would not bring a child into that, its unfair.

That's all I have to say, I'm not justifying it because I don't feel like I habe to, but for gods sake will you all just wake up and see that sometimes, for OTHER people, a different choice is better.

Morbert wrote: »

We are not debating whether or not Neonaticide/late-term abortion should be legal. Everyone agrees that it shouldn't be (If someone doesn't, please say so).
.

Well not everyone really. There are those who believe that the woman's right to bodily integrity can give her the right to remove the fetus from her body at any stage.
I do fully agree though that early term abortion is a completely separate issue to late term abortion. The ethical considerations are completely different. Infanticide is a very separate issue from abortion altogether.

The ethical objections to early term abortion(the majority of abortions) should be laid out first before we could even begin to talk about the trickier later term ones.