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Windows 8 Metro: The fall of windows or the best invention ever

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    #302
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Interesting take on this from Valve

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/26/gabe_newell_windows_8/
    Windows 8 does change things for OEMs on a number of fronts: it sees Microsoft exert control over the hardware like never before by wielding UEFI secure boot, while Windows 8 on ARM hardware rules out x86 makers who are alien to ARM architectures. Also, Microsoft has floated its Surface tablet-cum-laptop, a reference design it wants PC makers to follow and that it will manufacture and sell direct itself as an added incentive to make PC manufacturers fall into line.

    The whole ethos of Windows 8 goes against what has been Windows's success for decades: it might be closed-source code, but you were pretty much welcome to put it on any PC hardware you wanted. It was designed to be the exact opposite of Apple’s hardware control freakery. That’s one reason why Windows sits on 90 per cent of the world's desktops while Apple perches on six per cent.

    Whether all this marginalises PC makers and drives them out of business remains to be seen. Certainly Microsoft’s new requirements for future computers could act as a deterrent to new entrants - never mind the more opportunistic players who don’t have a 30-odd year relationship with Microsoft and can’t be bothered with the overhead of new onerous restrictions and rules.

    ...
    Games on the PC helped establish Windows and Valve. Windows 8 may put PC makers out of business – and truth be told, few will shed a tear – but the problem for Microsoft will be what if more software makers such as Valve turn to Linux rather than stick with Windows 8. This could be something that finally helps establish Linux as an alternative to Windows on laptops and PCs.


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    #303
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I don't get why that piece thinks MS control on the desktop is changed.

    Who would buy a Windows tablet knowing they probably won't give up OS updates like the Windows Mobile fiasco.


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    #304
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    BostonB wrote: »
    I don't get why that piece thinks MS control on the desktop is changed.

    They've finally moved towards a repository system, but instead of focusing on making it do something akin to Secunia's PSI (ie ensuring that you've got the latest patches for all your installed software, not just the MS-developed stuff) they're focusing on turning it into the MS equivalent of the Mac App Store - ie a new source of revenue for MS by providing a software sales/distribution mechanism and skimming off 30% of the cost.

    I'm sure Valve look at that and see an immediate and direct threat to their business that's substantially greater than the Games For Windows Marketplace would have been.

    Combined with the signed-bootloader lockdown (meaning that you can't necessarily put any OS you like on an OEM machine anymore because ZOMG WHAT IF BOOTLOADER MALWARE or some other FUD-like excuse) and the Windows 8 RT can only get software through the Windows store aspect, Microsoft are closing off the Windows garden much more so than they have in the past.

    Between the closing walls and the "throw everyone else under the bus to pursue the tablet market" angle, Windows 8's reception and impact will be fascinating to behold.


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    #305
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Fysh wrote: »
    ...Windows 8 RT can only get software through the Windows store aspect...

    Sorry where are you getting that from?


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    #306
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Fysh wrote: »
    ...you can't necessarily put any OS you like on an OEM machine anymore...

    I don't get what this means. Why not.


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    #307
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    BostonB wrote: »
    I don't get what this means. Why not.
    Historically Microsoft have offered very cheap prices to OEM's who agree to restrictive deals.

    Little gems like requiring a payment for Dos for every machine made, regardless of which OS it was actually sold with. By the time the court case was over PC-Dos, Dr-Dos and other flavours were toast.

    Essentially because of their dominant position in the market microsoft can make the OEM's an offer they can't refuse. Compare the cost of a 'retail' OEM license and the near zero difference (is it even possible to get windows refunds anymore - didn't they change the rule to handing back the whole PC ?) in price between a PC supplied with windows or linux.

    It's simple OEM's have the choice of getting windows for half nothing from microsoft if they toe the line or pay a lot more if they source it elsewhere.



    Remember Microsoft could give windows free to home users and still make money on the business versions and the CAL's and office and all the other products that run on windows. But it's even better for them if they get paid for it too.

    And of course they would love to have an app store or itunes. It isn't looking rosy on the smartphone side of things as android and iphone have the lions share so looks like they are trying to get some return on the desktop/tablet side.


    Also am not a huge fan of the Ubuntu marketplace thingy that tries to do a bit of upselling. Thing is selling small apps is where everyone is trying to skim off a couple of quid these days.


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    #308
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    BostonB wrote: »
    Sorry where are you getting that from?

    I'm being parandoid and extrapolating from the limitation that any software for Windows 8 RT has to be developed using the Windows Runtime (ie Metro UI) and cannot use Win32 APIs. Given that Windows 8 RT will have Office 2013 preinstalled, and that Microsoft clearly view the Windows Store as a new revenue source, it would not surprise me in the slightest to find that they make it really damned hard (if not impossible) to sideload software. They won't want you to be able to install and use a LibreOffice port when the whole reason for Win8RT having Office preinstalled is to try and grab the enterprise tablet marketplace ("It runs windows so it'll work with your domain as is, plus it has office built in!").
    BostonB wrote: »
    I don't get what this means. Why not.

    You've not been paying attention to the UEFI Secure Boot controversy, have you? Have a read of the summary on Wikipedia, and this article explaining why senior devs at RHEL are opposed to the move, and hopefully all will become clear.


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    #309
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Sorry but nearly all of those last two posts were long on rant and short on facts.

    I'm going to guess that most people will never run anything other than windows. Those what want to, won't buy a machine with a locked down (Windows Only) UEFI BIOS. Apple does something similar and people have found ways around this.

    http://gigabytedaily.blogspot.ie/2012/04/gigabyte-uefi-bios-perfect-fit-for.html


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    #310
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    BostonB wrote: »
    Sorry but nearly all of those last two posts were long on rant and short on facts.

    I'm going to guess that most people will never run anything other than windows. Those what want to, won't buy a machine with a locked down (Windows Only) UEFI BIOS. Apple does something similar and people have found ways around this.

    http://gigabytedaily.blogspot.ie/2012/04/gigabyte-uefi-bios-perfect-fit-for.html

    Hey, if you want to make your mind up before actually spending some time reading about the situation or gathering the facts, you work away. I'm not the one sitting here asking what this UEFI/Secure Boot business means before dismissing it. The fact is, an option which requires OS distributions to have a signed key in order for it to be installed is not the advantage it's being sold as, because it hugely limits your ability to install any OS that your original kit vendor doesn't have on its approvals list.

    You don't see that as a problem, that's up to you. I don't like the idea that a behind-the-scenes change being pushed as a security measure will very possibly mean that your choice of computer now stops you from having a choice of OS for the lifespan of the machine regardless of the technical specifications of the system.


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    #311
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    What you saying is if you buy a machine that isn't supported by the OS you want to use it may not run on it. I would expect if someone wants to run an alternative OS you'll research the right hardware for it. Its going to catch people out no doubt. But I don't see it as that big a deal. Most people don't change their OS, and those that do will find out about it.

    Talking of facts, you're also just guessing MS will drop support for all apps other than those through the metro store. Thats just scare scaremongering at this point.

    I just was wondering if something new had come up or was it people just hyping it all up.


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    #312
    fionny
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭fionny


    BostonB wrote: »
    What you saying is if you buy a machine that isn't supported by the OS you want to use it may not run on it. I would expect if someone wants to run an alternative OS you'll research the right hardware for it.

    Talking of facts, you're also just guessing MS will drop support for all apps other than those through the metro store. Thats just scare scaremongering at this point.

    Any what you are saying in your one sided view is that its okay all of a sudden for MS to restrict what was pretty much the best thing about windows... so no more building pc's etc... this is NOT a good thing not for ANYONE except M$$$$$.

    Its BULL****. Bring on Linux to the mainstream.


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    #313
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,484 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    fionny wrote: »
    Any what you are saying in your one sided view is that its okay all of a sudden for MS to restrict what was pretty much the best thing about windows... so no more building pc's etc... this is NOT a good thing not for ANYONE except M$$$$$.

    Its BULL****. Bring on Linux to the mainstream.

    Why no more building PC's? The components can still be bought seperately?

    Windows RT is being locked down to give a tablet experience rather than a windows one, windows 8 will be as open as any previous version of windows from an app install POV.

    Even Microsoft acknowledge the need for real windows 8, hence the Surface Pro. If you want a tablet for similar uses to the iPad, but with the likes of Office then Windows RT is the product for that.


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    #314
    fionny
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭fionny


    Because you will now have to buy from microsoft compliant mb manufactuers thus limiting your choice:

    "it sees Microsoft exert control over the hardware like never before by wielding UEFI secure boot,"

    Just about all aspects of Windows 8 is alienating me. The only good thing about it is the fact its forcing devs to look elsewhere, Linux has been great for a long time but as gaming on it wasnt very easy it kept me away... now with steam making shapes etc.. ill be keeping a very close eye on things.


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    #315
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    In the history of computers, theres never been a time where they made hardware that couldn't be got round or you couldn't choose an alternative. Any time they do lock stuff down people just bypass it.


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    #316
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,484 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    fionny wrote: »
    Because you will now have to buy from microsoft compliant mb manufactuers thus limiting your choice:

    "it sees Microsoft exert control over the hardware like never before by wielding UEFI secure boot,"

    Just about all aspects of Windows 8 is alienating me. The only good thing about it is the fact its forcing devs to look elsewhere, Linux has been great for a long time but as gaming on it wasnt very easy it kept me away... now with steam making shapes etc.. ill be keeping a very close eye on things.

    While I hate resorting to wikipedia, (numerous other places also mention the workings):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8#Secure_boot

    Hardware makers who choose the optional Microsoft Certification will be required to implement UEFI. Microsoft will also require that manufacturers offer the ability to turn off the secure boot feature on x86 hardware,[78] but they must not offer such an option on ARM hardware. No mandate is made regarding the installation of third-party certificates that would enable running alternative software.[79][80][81]

    Building pc's = fine
    If you're building tablets, just don't buy a board that was for Windows RT (any number of android boards will do).


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    #317
    fionny
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭fionny


    Okay well that policy lessens the damage at least.


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    #318
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    BostonB wrote: »
    Talking of facts, you're also just guessing MS will drop support for all apps other than those through the metro store. Thats just scare scaremongering at this point.
    I wouldn't say it's completely scaremongering. They've dropped their C#, C++ and VB versions of Visual Studio Express for the 2012 version. VS2012 Express can only be used for Metro apps. Though obviously that doesn't prevent you from coding non Metro apps (after all, you can still pay full whack for VS Pro/Premium/Ultimate) it's pretty clear that they are deliberately pushing people towards Metro only.


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    #319
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    BostonB wrote: »
    In the history of computers, theres never been a time where they made hardware that couldn't be got round or you couldn't choose an alternative. Any time they do lock stuff down people just bypass it.
    Dream on.

    It's been a constant battle with too many near misses.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/26/andre_hedrick
    Complete control of your hard drive.

    Sony Malware.

    Remember Clipper ?


    PC's exist because they are open, you can upgrade and tweak away. (OK there are worries about trusted computing and booting - cf. Ubuntu's fun and games with the new HW standards)

    Devices that you can't upgrade like smartphones and tablets don't need to be open to consume media.


    There are lots of closed appliances out there. A SKY digibox is a good example of a successfully closed system. Millions of them in the wild since 1998 even though they provide a valuable and desirable service and a hacked box would be completely untraceable as long as you don't plug it in to the phone line.

    And the technology to lock down hardware has improved vastly since 1998.


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/27/microsoft_surface_threatens_oem_relations/
    Microsoft’s tablet-like-laptop Surface will compete with machines from PC partners, thus jeopardising manufacturers’ commitment to Windows 8. That’s the bottom line revealed in Microsoft’s latest SEC filing for Wall St’s moneymen.

    Under the Risk Factors section in Microsoft’s 10-K, here, the company states: “Our Surface devices will compete with products made by our OEM [original equipment manufacturer] partners, which may affect their commitment to our platform."

    The company also concedes consumers might hold off buying Windows-based tablets.


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    #320
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The turn around for that didn't last long....

    http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/240001856/microsoft-drops-metro-only-approach-for-visual-studio-express-2012.htm
    http://www.neowin.net/news/visual-studio-2012-express-confirmed-for-desktop-developers
    Adhering to the core principles we’ve set for our Express products, Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop will provide a simple, end-to-end development experience for developing Windows desktop applications targeted to run on all versions of Windows supported by Visual Studio 2012. With this new Express edition, developers will be able to use C++, C#, or Visual Basic to create Windows desktop and console applications. Developers will also get access to new advances available across the Express family in Visual Studio 2012, such as the latest compilers and programming language tools, integrated unit testing, and the ability for small development teams to collaborate via Team Explorer and TFS Express.

    Can't say I've ever used the express version only the enterprise/pro editions.


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    #321
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Dream on.

    It's been a constant battle with too many near misses.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/26/andre_hedrick
    Complete control of your hard drive.

    Sony Malware.

    Remember Clipper ?


    PC's exist because they are open, you can upgrade and tweak away. (OK there are worries about trusted computing and booting - cf. Ubuntu's fun and games with the new HW standards)

    Devices that you can't upgrade like smartphones and tablets don't need to be open to consume media.


    There are lots of closed appliances out there. A SKY digibox is a good example of a successfully closed system. Millions of them in the wild since 1998 even though they provide a valuable and desirable service and a hacked box would be completely untraceable as long as you don't plug it in to the phone line.

    And the technology to lock down hardware has improved vastly since 1998.


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/27/microsoft_surface_threatens_oem_relations/

    How did that work out for Sony, or now for Nokia with their lock into Windows Mobile with no upgrade path.

    People vote with their wallets.


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    #322
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Blowfish wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's completely scaremongering. They've dropped their C#, C++ and VB versions of Visual Studio Express for the 2012 version. VS2012 Express can only be used for Metro apps. Though obviously that doesn't prevent you from coding non Metro apps (after all, you can still pay full whack for VS Pro/Premium/Ultimate) it's pretty clear that they are deliberately pushing people towards Metro only.
    They changed that pretty quickly:
    link


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    #323
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Maybe it was all a dream...


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    #324
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    BostonB wrote: »
    The turn around for that didn't last long....

    http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/240001856/microsoft-drops-metro-only-approach-for-visual-studio-express-2012.htm
    http://www.neowin.net/news/visual-studio-2012-express-confirmed-for-desktop-developers
    Excellent, not sure how I missed that one, I've just been using the RC since it's release.

    I use Express a bit both in work and at home for the odd project, but not enough to justify the cost of pro/MSDN. Not having the availability of Express was probably the thing I was most annoyed about in Win 8.


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    #325
    Dean_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭Dean_Mc


    The express versions are in Beta. I full expect them to have all the usual support by the time the rtm versions roll around.

    For me personally as a developer. I love the idea of Metro. Initially people will hate it but as there are more points of integration with the OS itself you will see much richer apps that really know how to make your data sing.

    One thing I do find worrying though is the fact that Metro as a design language is quite vague, and purposely so, it is only supposed to be a guide. What is happening however is that people are taking it at face value and everything is looking a bit samey. Hopefully over time this trend will go as people become more comfortable building Metro apps.

    Here is an interesting observation for people flat out refusing to ever use Windows 8. All things being equal Desktop is this generations Console Window...


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    #326
    fionny
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭fionny


    Blizzard mentioned that they agree with Gabe Newell's views on windows 8 also... so thats 2 of some the biggest gaming companies on the microsoft platform pissed off over w8. Going well so far MS... best of luck :P


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    #327
    Dean_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭Dean_Mc


    fionny wrote: »
    Blizzard mentioned that they agree with Gabe Newell's views on windows 8 also... so thats 2 of some the biggest gaming companies on the microsoft platform pissed off over w8. Going well so far MS... best of luck :P

    Both Blizzard and Steam have vested interests in Microsoft NOT going the "app store" route. Both companies are essentially just defending their product's. If anything Windows 8 will make gaming more accessible as they blend the lessons they have learned from Xbox into Windows 8.


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    #328
    fionny
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭fionny


    Dean_Mc wrote: »
    Both Blizzard and Steam have vested interests in Microsoft NOT going the "app store" route. Both companies are essentially just defending their product's. If anything Windows 8 will make gaming more accessible as they blend the lessons they have learned from Xbox into Windows 8.

    And that my friend is bad for the consumer... cultivating a monopoly platform. Not good for anyone but M$ watch as the EU will tear into them and rightly so.


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    #329
    Dean_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭Dean_Mc


    fionny wrote: »
    And that my friend is bad for the consumer... cultivating a monopoly platform. Not good for anyone but M$ watch as the EU will tear into them and rightly so.

    Your assumption is incorrect. Microsoft are not closing off the platform. I run Windows 8 and I have steam installed. Gabe is annoyed at the fact that Microsoft are releasing a competitor app which is branded Xbox. This was always going to happen. Xbox is one of Microsoft's most successful brand's and with the merger of Zune services into the Xbox brand the consumer will benefit immensely.

    I find it odd that you jump on Microsoft so quickly for locking down their system. Do not forget that Valve are also trying to make a console that will only run games purchased from Steam. They are just as guilty as every other company in trying to build a walled garden.

    Also using M$ really smacks of keyboard warrior.


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    #330
    fionny
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭fionny


    I couldnt give a crap what you think of my use of M$ so assume what you will and keep it to yourself.

    I dont particularly like the fact that steam is doing a console, but a console is optional and you buy that for its sole purpose you are under no illusion, where as m$ is building and integrating its app store right into the interface which is a competition issue, one that will not stand in the EU for the same reasons as IE being the only choice of browser in the past landed them in it.


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    #331
    Dean_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭Dean_Mc


    fionny wrote: »
    I couldnt give a crap what you think of my use of M$ so assume what you will and keep it to yourself.

    I dont particularly like the fact that steam is doing a console, but a console is optional and you buy that for its sole purpose you are under no illusion, where as m$ is building and integrating its app store right into the interface which is a competition issue, one that will not stand in the EU for the same reasons as IE being the only choice of browser in the past landed them in it.

    Easy on the language. Nobodies arguing with you here. We are all adults.

    You are incorrect. The EU will only get involved if there are antitrust breaches. Offering an app store is not a breach. Have you actually used Windows 8? You still have access to the desktop, you can still download software for the desktop. Links that you click in Metro Apps still open in Chrome if that is your default browser. There are no restrictions whatsoever. The only thing that has changed is that the start bar has become the start screen for the purposes of allowing people to access and manage Metro apps in a unified fashion.


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