'Fag' and 'that's so gay' -- do they bother you?

Slang_Tang

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm looking at it in light of this article of TheJournal.ie.

Does the use of 'fag' or 'that's so gay' (gay as a negative adjective) bother you? Is it socially acceptable for straight people to use these phrases casually? Or should gay people use them?

It really bothers me when people -- especially straight people -- use them. My sister did it when she was home for Christmas ("these pictures are so gay") and I found it upsetting, if I'm honest. I spent the majority of my school-going days (from ages 11 to 17) getting called a fag, queer, bent, etc. on a daily basis and I'd be happy never to hear those words again.

Slang_Tang

The comments in that article are interesting (and depressing), too, especially the ones by straight people. The negative ones can be classified as:

Political Correctness gone mad!!! (the stock Daily Mail Response). I'm not sure why people see the fact that it's not socially acceptable to say "fag" as an attack on their liberty

• My personal favorite: Freedom of Speech. Quite possibly the most misunderstood concept of all time. The difference between real freedom of speech (the freedom to express ideas) and incitement of hatred or hate speech.

• The gays need to stop complaining. Blondes, red-heads, everyone faces discrimination. Why do LGBTs want special treatment?

TerrorFirmer

I see no harm in it provided, obviously, there's no bad intent, which there usually isn't. My friend is gay and even he uses phrases like that, to be honest.

mikemac1

I thought queer was a slur, not something I'd ever say

Then I read in this forum about organizing a meetup, queer beers

Now I don't know what to think

Context is everything I suppose


Your sister didn't mean anything by it. My banger of a car is gay. Man Utd are gay. As for the colour of the paint in my flat, totally gay.
Words change over time and nobody can claim ownership, gay was something else in times past.
Look at the context, not what the sister said

Beruthiel

Slang_Tang wrote: »

Does the use of 'fag' or 'that's so gay'

It's like nails on a black board for me when I hear anyone say either of the above to express themselves.
I will judge you for their usage.
The English language is broad and expressive, it's seems utterly lazy to me that you cannot find another word to express how you feel about something.

Slang_Tang

mikemac1 wrote: »

Your sister didn't mean anything by it. My banger of a car is gay. Man Utd are gay. As for the colour of the paint in my flat, totally gay.
Words change over time and nobody can claim ownership, gay was something else in times past.

Words change over time, but not by a huge amount. I don't know where to stand by this. It's still not OK for non-black to use ni***r because only a black person truly knows how much that word hurts. Only a black person knows the history of that word fully, so they can decide in which context they'd like to use it (if at all). Why isn't it the same with fag or gay as an adjective?

The English language is so varied. If something's bad, there are hundreds, thousands of adjectives. Why do people need to use gay?

jay phelan

I find it upsetting only when used in a negative way like towards someone, other than that I don't really mind.

'fag' used in the sense of talking about cigarettes is grand but when used in a way such as "He is a total fag" I would find that off putting.

When people remark things as being gay, I would think they really mean 'cheesy' 'camp' 'feminine' I have never see any viciousness in a saying like that unless being directed at someone "He is so gay"

It's really down to how people use these words and phrases then the actual words and phrases themselves.

When I grew up I used to use queer alot but I meant queer as in strange and not as in a homosexual person. "That picture is really queer" meaning that the picture was strange.

Annasopra

These posts sum my feelings on "that's so gay"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72856192&postcount=17

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72856452&postcount=22

mango salsa wrote: »

To me the context do matter in a way. It's about using a word that denotes peoples sexuality in a context that is negative. To me this links and associates being gay with negativity, with something to be ashamed of.

wonderfulname wrote: »

The problem isn't in the evolution of the language, the problem is in the coexistence of two very different definitions of the same word. Most people can separate these, some people cannot, especially (from my understanding) young, closeted, LGBT people who have to hear the negative usage a lot more often than we do.

Another thing about language is that we always have taboo words, is it about time to treat the slang use of 'gay' as one? Effectively give it an 18s label and not use it in polite conversation? After all c*nt is taboo, not because of its looser usage but because of its literal meaning, as is f*ggot, again not for its modern usage but for its connotations.

ongarboy

Fag is derogative and offensive to me.

"That's so gay" or "that's a bit gay" is not offensive to me in particular but I am still a little concerned about how it has become a mainstream term among younger folks to criticise or knock something. For young closeted LGBT people struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, hearing gay being bandied around in such a negative context cannot be a good thing for them. Maybe I'm showing my age but it is not a phrase used by my peers but it seems to be widespread among teens (possibly 20somethings too) and no doubt preteens who copy everything their older peers say.

Then again, it might hopefully go out of vogue like naff - haven't heard that word in ages!

bodice ripper

I can't stand queer or dyke, but it doesn't stop people from using them. And I don't think it should either.

Dr. Baltar

I use them all the time. Our forebears reclaimed the word "queer" which used to be a derogatory word. I've reclaimed these phrases for myself and everyone else did it then they won't get offended.

old hippy

I don't mind if people I know well use it, as ironic... but in general, I find it lazy.

Slang_Tang

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I use them all the time. Our forebears reclaimed the word "queer" which used to be a derogatory word. I've reclaimed these phrases for myself and everyone else did it then they won't get offended.

OK. But what about if someone used them in reference to you?

Also, I don't wanna get caught up in etymology, but for me there's a difference between offensive and upsetting. I described my sister using the phrase as upsetting (emotional upset).

jaffacakesyum

Couldn't care less if those words are used. Word meanings change over time. When I or any of my friends say "ah that's so gay" we don't mean "ah that's so crap it's as bad as being homosexual" :rolleyes:

That said, I do try and avoid saying it around people if it offends them.

Goodshape

I don't like it at all to be honest. I think everyone can agree that "Fag" / "Fagg*t" are purely derogatory -- personally I don't think using "gay" as a stand-in for something that's detested and unwanted is any better at all.

Among friends you can give leeway for context -- "that pink shirt is so gay".. well, yeah, pink shirt is pretty (stereotypically) gay alright.

"That TV show / referee's decision / random thing I hate is f*cking gay"... no. Coming out is still difficult enough without the word being a catch-all substitute for anything sh*t / crap / hated / unwanted.

Pacifist Pigeon

Not a bit. It's just a word; an amalgamation of sounds.

If people start to hype up and regulate the use of these typically negative words, such as fag, poof or queer, the more their association with that negative becomes reinforced.

The bully will know exactly what words will offend you, he'll know where it'll hit you the worst. The more we try ignore these words and their use, the less ammunition the bully will have. In fact, I'd actually condone their casual use in the media because it'll be disassociated with something negative. That's my take on it.

Personally, if someone called me a fag or any of the aforementioned words, I just praise him/her sarcastically for developing the intellectual capacity to think of a single monosyllabic word that he/she thought would offend me. These things really don't bother me in the slightest.

If I was using these words casually amongst my friends and a gay person came up to me saying that he/she was offended, I'd just tell them, "Actually, love, I'm gay too and yes this is the smoking section. S'later."

Goodshape

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Personally, if someone called me a fag or any of the aforementioned words, I just praise him/her sarcastically

Ah, but that's different. I'd probably do the same and brush it off in that context. I am gay. Anyone can call me gay and my friends can call me a fagg*t all they want... and I'll call them names or just say "...and?" back, we'll all have a laugh and continue on our lives.

But the rival football team isn't gay. The lecturer who gave you a low grade isn't a f*cking fagg*t.

It's when they're dropped in as a 1-for-1 substitute for anything you genuinely have reason to hate that's the problem.

Caiseoipe19

Although I've rarely ever been called any of them as I'm not out and don't fit the stereotypical gay image, I would get offended. I especially detest fag and queer but as pointed out already, even gay people use these in the likes of "QueerID" "Fag Hags(?)" etc.

If fag**t is to be included as well, on my eleventh birthday I was called a fag**t and almost eleven years on I still remember the exact incident, so yeah it bothers me.

Despite what people say about "that's so gay" not having anything to do with homosexuality, I have no doubt in my mind that it does and is an insult, even if quite a moderate one.

Pacifist Pigeon

Goodshape wrote: »

Ah, but that's different. I'd probably do the same and brush it off in that context. I am gay. Anyone can call me gay and my friends can call me a fagg*t all they want... and I'll call them names or just say "...and?" back, we'll all have a laugh and continue on our lives.

But the rival football team isn't gay. The lecturer who gave you a low grade isn't a f*cking fagg*t.

It's when they're dropped in as a 1-for-1 substitute for anything you genuinely have reason to hate that's the problem.

What I was more getting to was try to utterly disassociate words like "fag" and "poof" with homosexuality. In some parts of Ireland, the word "faggot" (I heard my late grandmother use the phrase "well ya little faggotín" once) isn't always associated with gay people.

Where the hell does the word "faggot" come to? Wikipedia says it means "a bundle of sticks" - how the hell did that get associated with homosexuality? It's like Chinese whispers.

jaffacakesyum

Cygnus wrote: »

Although I've rarely ever been called any of them as I'm not out and don't fit the stereotypical gay image, I would get offended. I especially detest fag and queer but as pointed out already, even gay people use these in the likes of "QueerID" "Fag Hags(?)" etc.

If fag**t is to be included as well, on my eleventh birthday I was called a fag**t and almost eleven years on I still remember the exact incident, so yeah it bothers me.

Despite what people say about "that's so gay" not having anything to do with homosexuality, I have no doubt in my mind that it does and is an insult, even if quite a moderate one.

What if the comment is said by someone who is LGBT? Are they being homophobic? Saying "ah that's so gay" about something completely unrelated to homosexuality is not being homophobic. It's just a word. Word meanings change over time. It's no different to saying "that's so crap". In my opinion, of course

Goodshape

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Where the hell does the word "faggot" come to? Wikipedia say it means "a bundle of sticks" - how the hell did that get associated with homosexuality? It's like Chinese whispers.

Louis CK offers a good explanation. Might not be true but, good explanation all the same. Funny scene, definitely NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-55wC5dEnc

[edit] -- quite a long clip actually. Fagg*t explanation starts 5mins in.

Babybuff

no

mikemac1

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Where the hell does the word "faggot" come to? Wikipedia say it means "a bundle of sticks" - how the hell did that get associated with homosexuality? It's like Chinese whispers.

The Church used to burn people, faggots of sticks

But I think the main reason was the English public school system. Bullying was rife and the older lads would pick out a young lad to run errands and do donkey work. You call your faggot over to do stuff or you roar for your fag. Hey fag, get over here now
Roald Dahl had all this in his book Boy

Nothing to do with being gay, just students in boarding school

Words change

Aurongroove

I don't usually attach any 'instant sore spots' to words, and I tend to care more about their context and insinuation.

I do think it is common however for people to have words that they treat like the 'are ya... chicken?' thing from Back To The Future. (the guy is assaulted in almost every way, but it's only once the guy says 'chicken' that yer man ticks over) and fag tends to be that for a lot of people, gay and straight.

My friends and I use in each others company and I don't fret about it, but I would be sensitive about using it around other gay people (who weren't my friends) in case it did offend; My actually being gay is no excuse for me to go around calling other gay person 'fags' if it is their chosen 'buzzword'.


as for "that's so gay" well :rolleyes: I'd go so far as to say I enjoy the phrase.

blueruin

I don't like it. Even if the speaker is well-meaning it equates 'gay' with 'undesirable'.

In fairness women get the same deal when men use terms like 'girly', 'like a woman', etc. to insult each other or to imply weakness or cowardice.

Slang_Tang

Aurongroove wrote: »

as for "that's so gay" well :rolleyes: I'd go so far as to say I enjoy the phrase.

Why?

old hippy

I've noticed that once it's pointed out in the real world that such words cause offence, most sensible people stop using it in front of you, whereas here and on other sites people suddenly can't wait to get a rise out of using it...

i_steal_sheep

...does not bother me in the slightest. My mates might say it to me every once in a while that 'that shirt's a bit gay isn't it?' etc ... They are my mates. Their respect gets mine. But that's me. Everyone is different. I feel sorry for someone who would use them words to intentionally try to hurt anyone. It says more about the offender than it does about the one on the receiving end...

LegacyUser

I try not to use them but I do the odd time, it is never used to be offensive when I use it (being bi myself...)

CuAnnan

Beruthiel wrote: »

It's like nails on a black board for me when I hear anyone say either of the above to express themselves.

Do you use the word "Queer"?

Beruthiel wrote: »

I will judge you for their usage.

How incredibly big of you.

bodice ripper wrote: »

I can't stand queer or dyke, but it doesn't stop people from using them. And I don't think it should either.

I'm with you on that.

eaglach

I couldn't care less. Its all about context. If someones trying to be offensive then you have a reason to be annoyed.

But if someone doesn't mean any harm by it, why get worked up over it?

For instance, if my mate thinks I did something stupid and says "you're such a ******" I wouldnt take offense as its nothing to do with me being gay.

On the other hand, if my friend was specifically talking about a gay guy and says "so this ****** comes up to me" then that would be offensive he's saying it because the guy is gay.

Louis C.K. sums it up much better than I can. NSFW:

Aurongroove

Slang_Tang wrote: »

Why?

that's a deceptively complex question.

I like what it does. It's a bit like when my blind friend says to me "I'll see you later" or I, to him.
It's something that works on lots of different levels, depending on who is saying it, and what or who they're saying it about.

Coeurdepirate

If someone calls me a fag or whatever in a malicious way I hate it and I get really angry.

I don't mind it being used in joking contexts, derogatory or not. I also don't mind 'that's so gay', I've said it myself on occasion.
I sort of feel like as a gay man it should irk me and I'll probably get loads of "oh it's so homophobic" on here but honestly, I couldn't give a shíte.

WillySignaigo

Disgraceful, having relocated to Mississipi in 04 from Roscrea area where gays were beat out the door, really shows the state of our country. Moving home in the next few months, v. excited to see my family again, Darnell, Hollis and Bubba send their love!

wongus69

WillySignaigo wrote: »

Disgraceful, having relocated to Mississipi in 04 from Roscrea area where gays were beat out the door, really shows the state of our country. Moving home in the next few months, v. excited to see my family again, Darnell, Hollis and Bubba send their love!

Yes I couldn't agree more,the Roscrea area was none too welcoming. I thoroughly enjoy the Dublin scene, W.A.R is my outlet!!

Sonics2k

It's honestly always depended on the context of how it's said.

If said with a malicious tone or in spite/anger, then I possibly would.

baby and crumble

Not trying to ruin the party, peeps, but keep the flirting off thread, cheers!

tinyk68

My daughter is friends with a boy who's 16 and openly gay (not easy in rural Ireland) and he was recently called a ****** by one of the group of friends. They were all offended by it and told the person in question he was not welcome in the group if he continued to use the word. I think it is offensive because it is usually used in a derogatory way. It is used as an insult

BAM!!!

Words mean nothing. What's more important is the sentiment behind them...

Aurongroove

agrees with Bam(!!!).

80% of the time it's not the word, but the sentiment behind it.

Annasopra

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0317/1224313472657.html

Gav.80

interesting article, 2 many young people use offensive terms like that, If you have friends that use those terms just stop hanging around with them, no need to let their negativity get u down

allydylan

i find the phrase "that's so gay" annoying if anything

but i hate the word fag, particularly when the word is used in its full. I just thing its a disgusting word

1ZRed

"Thats so gay" doesn't bother me in the slightest because its just a saying, and even I say it sometimes. But fag and queer bother me because I only hear them when someone is negatively talking about gay people.

gavkm27

does'nt bother me in the slighest,in fact my straight friends use to say 'thats so gay,no offence gavan' and later it got to 'thats so gay OFFENCE gavan'
i usually remark about how hot their Dad is and it usually shuts them up lol:D

Annasopra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxs78C3XGok&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ewan whose army

F** Yes , Thats So Gay no

Awake&Unafraid

I hate the word f****t, probably because its a word that was directed at me a lot in school.

Also I dont really like the word queer. I know it's been reclaimed by the lgbt community and all that but I have a lot of memories of being called a queer (even more so than f*****)and it hurt a lot when I was younger. I guess my dislike for that word will take a while to go away.

Ash885

I've no time for people who use the f*g word.

If it's not meant to be offensive, you can still easily pick another substitute word to use. A word like that can cause a lot of discomfort for people and should be avoided, and you can tell a lot about a person if they use it quite casually.

baby and crumble

I liken it to using the word 'retarded'. Yes, it's 'just' a word, but it hurts some people. So if it does, you shouldn't use it. Simples.

Rick_

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS0GVOQPs0