Meat is murder, tasty, tasty murder . . .

El_Dangeroso

Cú Giobach wrote: »

By the way, the person who has the chickens where I currently get my eggs from didn't breed or buy them, they were unwanted and she took them in.
I also enjoy eating chicken and am able to kill and prepare one for the table.
I can honestly say I am much more aware of the red in tooth and claw nature of life than most people, who only ever see meat in the sterile environment of the supermarket, so don't be preaching your crap this way.

The reason I defend vegetarianism is not because I have some sort of difficulty with the cycle of life and death but because there is nothing wrong with it, and people have the right to live as they see fit if they are doing no harm to others.

Orphan chickens? Spare me..

Of course people have the right to live their lives as they see fit, that's why you don't see omnivores preaching omnivorism. You do see vegetarians preaching vegetarianism though.

44leto

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Orphan chickens? Spare me..

Of course people have the right to live their lives as they see fit, that's why you don't see omnivores preaching omnivorism. You do see vegetarians preaching vegetarianism though.

But that is not really an argument, I would imagine slave owners didn't preach the anti slave message, they wanted to live their lives as they seen fit. OK an extreme example.

I seldom hear vegetarians been vocal about why they are veges, it is usually the carnivores who want to show them the error of their ways. I myself am the T Rex of carnivores, but I understand and respect their choices.

ItsAWindUp

44leto wrote: »

But that is not really an argument, I would imagine slave owners didn't preach the anti slave message, they wanted to live their lives as they seen fit. OK an extreme example.

I seldom hear vegetarians been vocal about why they are veges, it is usually the carnivores who want to show them the error of their ways. I myself am the T Rex of carnivores, but I understand and respect their choices.

This.

El_Dangeroso

44leto wrote: »

I seldom hear vegetarians been vocal about why they are veges, it is usually the carnivores who want to show them the error of their ways. I myself am the T Rex of carnivores, but I understand and respect their choices.

I do too, why the hell would I care what someone eats. hear vegetarians say how their diet is healthier, better for the environment, more ethical etc. I have veggie friends that are fine with others dietary choices but I've experienced more that feel they have some moral right to judge omnivores as inhumane and uncaring.

No omnivores have advocacy and lobby groups and propaganda machines and terrorist organisations on their side.

Cú Giobach

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Orphan chickens? Spare me..

People moving and getting rid of a few animals including their chickens, what's odd about that? I also got a dog from them, I suppose you probably think that is odd too.

Of course people have the right to live their lives as they see fit, that's why you don't see omnivores preaching omnivorism. You do see vegetarians preaching vegetarianism though.

Hello...
You obviously haven't been reading the thread very well, because the only thing I have been doing here was arguing with a preachy omnivore. You can read can't you?

ItsAWindUp

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I do too, why the hell would I care what someone eats. hear vegetarians say how their diet is healthier, better for the environment, more ethical etc. I have veggie friends that are fine with others dietary choices but I've experienced more that feel they have some moral right to judge omnivores as inhumane and uncaring.

No omnivores have advocacy and lobby groups and propaganda machines and terrorist organisations on their side.

What about McDonalds and their deliberate marketing towards children?

Mr.Biscuits

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

No omnivores have advocacy and lobby groups and propaganda machines and terrorist organisations on their side.

Are you kidding?

The Beef Industry Councils are about as a powerful as 'lobby groups' can get.

Just ask Oprah.

grindle

44leto wrote: »

I seldom hear vegetarians been vocal about why they are veges, it is usually the carnivores who want to show them the error of their ways. I myself am the T Rex of carnivores, but I understand and respect their choices.

True. I am one of those carnivores. I've saved two friends from vegetarianism. That makes it all worth it.
And it's logically impossible to either understand or respect the choice of vegetarianism. It's an irrational choice, and I respect their right to make the choice, but you don't have to respect the choice itself.
Same if somebody ate everything but rice. They can choose that, but it's an irrational choice, which you'd hardly look at, stand back, and go "That guy's really stickin' to his guns about rice. I respect his distaste for the grain."

ItsAWindUp

grindle wrote: »

True. I am one of those carnivores. I've saved two friends from vegetarianism. That makes it all worth it.
And it's logically impossible to either understand or respect the choice of vegetarianism. It's an irrational choice, and I respect their right to make the choice, but you don't have to respect the choice itself.
Same if somebody ate everything but rice. They can choose that, but it's an irrational choice, which you'd hardly look at, stand back, and go "That guy's really stickin' to his guns about rice. I respect his distaste for the grain."

How exactly?

44leto

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Are you kidding?

The Beef Industry Councils are about as a powerful as 'lobby groups' can get.

Just ask Oprah.

LOL
I remember that and about the only group that really rumbled and beat her, by getting their message across.

People can live by being vegetarians and live well, but naturally we are carnivores, most vegetables are alien to our natural diet and only really in our diet since the neolithic revolution when man first settled and start farming. That is only 10,000 years ago, not enough evolutionary time to change our carni lust.

Naturally meat is better for us, it is what we are meant to be eating. BUT moralistically we don't have to, our lust for meat is an extinction event that is even contributing to our own peril of extinction. For every 10 KGs of grain grown 7 goes to animal feed, the whole of the amazon and the african plains are becoming ranches, cows release methane from the rear and the front, which is a much more potent greenhouse gas then CO2.

So ethically vegetarianism is probably the better choice, but I could not do it, but I could and should at least cut down, as should we all.

El_Dangeroso

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What about McDonalds and their deliberate marketing towards children?

What?? McDonald's are omnivore advocates now? Jesus christ.

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Are you kidding?

The Beef Industry Councils are about as a powerful as 'lobby groups' can get.

Just ask Oprah.

The beef industry lobby is NOTHING compared to the soy industry lobby (Monsanto, hello?) , and again the beef industry lobby is not an advocacy group for omnivores, just beef processors.

These two posts display the ignorance propagated by vegetarian groups that all people are either vegetarians or they eat nothing but industrial junk-food.

El_Dangeroso

44leto wrote: »

So ethically vegetarianism is probably the better choice, but I could not do it, but I could and should at least cut down, as should we all.

See that argument only works if the only option for people was industrial factory farming or no meat at all. But you can buy meat in this country that's more environmentally friendly and ethical than any soy-based product.

ItsAWindUp

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What?? McDonald's are omnivore advocates now? Jesus christ.

What part of that do you have difficulty understanding?

grindle

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

How exactly?

Meat is tasty. To not want to eat tasty things is irrational.

ItsAWindUp

grindle wrote: »

Meat is tasty. To not want to eat tasty things is irrational.

Meat is only tasty when processed. Non meat products can be processed to taste the same.

grindle

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Meat is only tasty when processed. Non meat products can be processed to taste the same.

I'd struggle to believe there's a viable vegetarian replacement for a medium-rare duck breast, and I've tasted fake bacon. Was repulsive.
I love non-meat products too, by the way. The only thing better than bacon is pineapple and bacon.
I don't inject minced lamb chops between my toes or anything.

44leto

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

See that argument only works if the only option for people was industrial factory farming or no meat at all. But you can buy meat in this country that's more environmentally friendly and ethical than any soy-based product.

But compared to the same calories and nutrient value for the world environment the vegetarian option in better in orders of magnitude.

Cú Giobach

grindle wrote: »

I'd struggle to believe there's a viable vegetarian replacement for a medium-rare duck breast, and I've tasted fake bacon. Was repulsive.
I love non-meat products too, by the way. The only thing better than bacon is pineapple and bacon.
I don't inject minced lamb chops between my toes or anything.

Christ, I thought only people like my mother (very very old) still had this notion of a vegetarian diet consisting of makey uppy versions of meat products.
Yes there are horrible "vegetarian versions" of things, but the whole food industry, whether with veg, meat or other, is producing crap of all sorts and calling it this or that.
Of course there is no vegetarian version of medium-rare duck breast, the only version is from the breast of a fucking duck.

grindle

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Christ, I thought only people like my mother (very very old) still had this notion of a vegetarian diet consisting of makey uppy versions of meat products.
Yes there are horrible "vegetarian versions" of things, but the whole food industry, whether with veg, meat or other, is producing crap of all sorts and calling it this or that.
Of course there is no vegetarian version of medium-rare duck breast, the only version is from the breast of a fucking duck.

I never said anything like that...? There are TONS of AMAAAAAAAAAAZING vegetarian dishes. I've happily eaten three courses in a veggy restaurant without whinging in that stereotypical meat-eater way that you presume I do (the "doesn't-feel-like-a-meal-without-meat-brigade").
Depriving yourself of more deliciousness though... Seems a pity.

Imagining a life without bacon frightens me a bit. What food'd make my mouth and stomach horny?

ScumLord

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Meat is only tasty when processed. Non meat products can be processed to taste the same.

No they can't, you must have only experienced terrible meat products because most meat is at it's best with the least amount of processing. It's only the poorer cuts that need extra processing to make them easier to eat.

Cú Giobach

grindle wrote: »

I never said anything like that...? There are TONS of AMAAAAAAAAAAZING vegetarian dishes. I've happily eaten three courses in a veggy restaurant without whinging in that stereotypical meat-eater way that you presume I do (the "doesn't-feel-like-a-meal-without-meat-brigade").
Depriving yourself of more deliciousness though... Seems a pity.

Imagining a life without bacon frightens me a bit. What food'd make my mouth and stomach horny?

Sorry
The words fake bacon set me off.

El_Dangeroso

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What part of that do you have difficulty understanding?

The part where it's anyway grounded in reality. Seriously get a clue.

44leto wrote: »

But compared to the same calories and nutrient value for the world environment the vegetarian option in better in orders of magnitude.

No it would not at all, do you think the farmers who cut down swathes of the amazon will just give up that land and stop growing grain on it? Or do you think it would cause a fall in grain prices and an increase in population followed by more rainforest cutting down to feed diminishing profits, to think otherwise is to not understand basic economics. Seriously, the naivite of these opinions is just worrying.

Also you are thinking that there is one global solution when that was what got us into this mess in the first place, the best way to go about it is local solutions that suit the local economy and climate. In Ireland most there is a lot of land that sheep and cattle can graze on that cannot be used to grow crops. People forget that livestock provide a valuable role in a sustainable farming eco-system, the only way to fertilise crops is through manure or petrochemicals.

Being vegetarian in Ireland for the sake of the environment is an deluded notion if you consume imported crops as a big portion of your diet.

dee.

I'm a vegetarian but never really enjoyed meat (red meat, mince especially, used to make me sick as a child) so I don't feel like i'm missing out. its mostly a pain when you go out to eat and the only vegetarian option is something you hate - which seems to be common for me because I despise mushrooms! I don't really care if other people eat meat or not, obviously in an ideal world i'd make everyone vegetarians but its a choice and people have different preferences and interests.

I have to agree with whoever said the fake meat options taste horrible. I eat them sometimes (maybe once every 2-3 weeks) and have gotten used to the taste now, although I prefer to use them in curries, spicy dishes,etc. so the flavour overpowers the taste of cardboard. The quorn fake ham is the only meat alternative I enjoy but have found that eating it too often..it begins to taste how I imagine dog food does!

lividduck

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Meat is only tasty when processed. Non meat products can be processed to taste the same.

Bollix.
a ribeye steak, blue....totally unprocessed ....absolutley delicious

44leto

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

The part where it's anyway grounded in reality. Seriously get a clue.



No it would not at all, do you think the farmers who cut down swathes of the amazon will just give up that land and stop growing grain on it? Or do you think it would cause a fall in grain prices and an increase in population followed by more rainforest cutting down to feed diminishing profits, to think otherwise is to not understand basic economics. Seriously, the naivite of these opinions is just worrying.

Also you are thinking that there is one global solution when that was what got us into this mess in the first place, the best way to go about it is local solutions that suit the local economy and climate. In Ireland most there is a lot of land that sheep and cattle can graze on that cannot be used to grow crops. People forget that livestock provide a valuable role in a sustainable farming eco-system, the only way to fertilise crops is through manure or petrochemicals.

Being vegetarian in Ireland for the sake of the environment is an deluded notion if you consume imported crops as a big portion of your diet.

You don't really know what you are talking about, first to spite the Amazon being a very rich area of vegetation the soil is very poor. They don't cut the forest down they burn it, then they move the cattle in, after a season the range is exhausted and because it rains a lot (a rain forest) so is the soil, so you could never grow grain on that land. Then they burn another section releasing that carbon and move the herds on. And so that will continue till the amazon turns into a desert.

But I will admit Brazilian beef is gorgeous IMO much better then our beef. Brazil are getting rich on the back of it, but among other things.
So if you think this planet is better off without the Amazonian rainforest, then think so. I couldn't be arsed saying why it wouldn't.

El_Dangeroso

44leto wrote: »

You don't really know what you are talking about, first to spite the Amazon being a very rich area of vegetation the soil is very poor. They don't cut the forest down they burn it, then they move the cattle in, after a season the range is exhausted and because it rains a lot (a rain forest) so is the soil, so you could never grow grain on that land. Then they burn another section releasing that carbon and move the herds on. And so that will continue till the amazon turns into a desert.

I was flippant in my use of the word amazon, I was referring to the 'ZOMG you guyys if everyone turned veggie we could feed the world!!11!' type reasoning, no we couldn't because there is enough food for everyone right now.

And my point stands, even if a huge amount of the western world turned vegetarian, it would not save one single tree in the rainforest.

44leto wrote: »

But I will admit Brazilian beef is gorgeous IMO much better then our beef. Brazil are getting rich on the back of it, but among other things.
So if you think this planet is better off without the Amazonian rainforest, then think so. I couldn't be arsed saying why it wouldn't.

We that's something I take offence at, Irish beef is way better than Brazilian beef and you need your taste-buds examined if you disagree. :pac:

When did I say I didn't care about the rainforest? Quit straw-manning my argument.

Keela11

Personally I believe anybody in the western world who eats meat is selfish and stupid. I have taken information on every side on board and after a year of not eating meat I can't fathom why I ever did (apart from my parents forcing me too).

This is quite a good short film (30 min.) on Veganism, but like all of these sort of things it is should be obvious that it is propaganda of a sort and should be taken with a pinch of salt at times.

http://vimeo.com/15849273

Gummy Panda

Keela11 wrote: »

Personally I believe anybody in the western world who eats meat is selfish and stupid.

oh.. fúck off!!

TheZohanS

Keela11 wrote: »

This is quite a good short film (30 min.) on Veganism, but like all of these sort of things it is should be obvious that it is propaganda of a sort and should be taken with a pinch of salt at times.

http://vimeo.com/15849273

A bit like a good steak in that regards.

Meat is lovely, if I had the time I'd have steak for breakfast too....moooooo!!

Didn't watch that moovie you linked either, was afraid it might be a virus.

galwayrush

I convinced one of my kids friends who was a vegetarian that it was ok to eat beef because cows didn't eat meat themselves. She ate the dinner...Am i evil?:pac: