Latvian Referendum

RimaNTSS

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And what of those born in Latvia before 1991 ?

via so called naturalisation process _http://www.am.gov.lv/en/policy/4641/4642/4651/naturalisation/

Since the start of the naturalisation process on 1 February 1995 and until 30 September 2011, by Decree of the Cabinet of Ministers 136,897 persons were granted Latvian citizenship, including 14,012 minors. Thus the representatives of more than 70 nationalities have acquired the citizenship of Latvia. The major portion of all applicants for citizenship consists of Russian residents and represents 68% of the total. 59.8% among those 612,306 residents of Russian ethnicity in Latvia have obtained citizenship.

Piglet1984

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And what of those born in Latvia before 1991 ?

Those who were citizens of Latvia before 1940 and their descendants received the citizenship. The rest had to apply.

Legally, it's quite a unique situation but I suppose that was the legacy the Baltic states were left and had to deal with and this was the route they chose.

Zab

RimaNTSS wrote: »

That is possible now- any non-sitizen can go via naturalization process and become a citizen. Many people did so, including Russians, Lithuanians, Poles you name it.

No, I'm not referring to the naturalization process as that requires knowledge of Latvian. I'm suggesting they should be able to become citizens without naturalization. Similar to how it is for children born since 1991 except for everybody in the country in 1991 and still there now.

http://www.pmlp.gov.lv/en/Citizenship/children.html

RimaNTSS

Naturalization, easy like that. And now is question: Why so many thousands wish to live i n Latvia but do not want to become a citizens? I know why at least some of them does not want! They do not care that they can not vote and can not work in governmental job. Rest of rights are exactly same as for citizens.
From 1991 more than 20 years passed, so enough time to learn a little bit of Language, of course if there is wish to do so.

Mike 1972

Zab wrote: »

No, I'm not referring to the naturalization process as that requires knowledge of Latvian.

Certain US states used to have a "literacy test" that people had to pass in order to register to vote right up until the mid 1960's.

On the face of it it didnt sound too unreasonable seeing has how in the age before mass electronic media the illiterate were unlikely to be well informed and it could have been considered dangerous to give them a vote.

However by some inexplicable quirk it seemed to be the case that members of some ethnic groups almost never failed these tests while members of other groups almost never passed them often regardless of how well or badly educated they actually were.

One wonders is it a similar case with these language tests ?

RimaNTSS

Zab wrote: »

I'm suggesting they should be able to become citizens without naturalization.

Can you imagine that now, after 20 years, Latvian government will be willing to change this law? After so many people went throw naturalization! You are asking why this law was proclaimed 20 years ago? This is too late to discuss as law is in power. Most likely, if we star our history from certain moment again, we would do several things differently.

Piglet1984

Mike 1972 wrote: »

One wonders is it a similar case with these language tests ?

Seriously? Like seriously? Are you implying that there are people being failed on purpose? Humour me.

I am from a mixed family myself, my relatives had to take the language test. Old, young, they passed and can now enjoy their life in Latvia without living in the fear that they might deported to a labour camp on a remote island in the Baltic sea (as this is what obviously happens to all non-citizens of Latvia and Estonia).

Mike 1972

Imagine the outcry if the UK government started requiring people registering to vote anywhere in the United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland) a UK passport in order to prove their eligibility to vote ?

I suspect certain Irish posters defending the Latvian situation here might be changing their tune pretty quickly.......

Seriously? Like seriously? Are you implying that there are people being failed on purpose? Humour me.

Why not ?

It would seem that in Latvia residents of non Latvian (particularly Russian) ethnicity dont seem to be held in particularly high regard either by official institutions or the wider population ?

If its as easy as you suggest for anyone resident in Latvia to become full citizens why do so many people simply not bother and prefer to endure everything from mild inconvenience to outright discrimination ?

RimaNTSS

Mike 1972 wrote: »

One wonders is it a similar case with these language tests ?

I do not have official statistics how many fail test, but I suspect that not many at all. I spoke to those have passed, that was really easy.
Majority did not have their test #1, did not even try, that is the point.

Seanchai

Piglet1984 wrote: »

And I'm not too concerned about AH standards.

Hehe.

fando

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Imagine the outcry if the UK government started requiring people registering to vote anywhere in the United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland) a UK passport in order to prove their eligibility to vote ?

I suspect certain Irish posters defending the Latvian situation here might be changing their tune pretty quickly.......

I can't believe you've run out of ideas

fando

Foreigners (including all residents without citizenship) can't vote in Ireland, so how's that different from Latvia.

wendell borton

A third of the population speaking russian is a threat to Lativian independence, considering the way russia operates in places like Georgia and other former states of the CCCP.

Zab

RimaNTSS wrote: »

Can you imagine that now, after 20 years, Latvian government will be willing to change this law? After so many people went throw naturalization! You are asking why this law was proclaimed 20 years ago? This is too late to discuss as law is in power. Most likely, if we star our history from certain moment again, we would do several things differently.

While I agree there are going to be a lot more concerns than I'm mentioning, I'm afraid I can't agree with your reasoning here. If the government and people believe that a mistake was made with regards to citizenship on independence then they should absolutely change the law. It is in no way too late to discuss it. People having had to go through naturalization previously is a regrettable but minor side-issue. There realistically being the political will to make this change is a question I can't answer.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Seanchai

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Imagine the outcry if the UK government started requiring people registering to vote anywhere in the United Kingdom (including Northern Ireland) a UK passport in order to prove their eligibility to vote ?

I suspect certain Irish posters defending the Latvian situation here might be changing their tune pretty quickly.......

Oh Jesus. Do you really want to bring up how you British - Ireland's Russian colonialists, to keep to the thread's dichotomy - robbed the land of Ireland and then decided to base votes on "ownership" of same via payment of rates and then how, surprise surprise, you had more votes and controlled everything "democratically" as a result?

It was as recently as 1970 that Irish people living under British occupation in the North of Ireland were looking for 'One Man, One Vote'. For this brazen act they got their skulls smashed in front of the western world's media.

If the British had any respect for the votes of the Irish electorate they wouldn't have overthrown democracy in Ireland, as stated in the landslide Sinn Fein victory in the 1918 general election, in December 1920 and invented the statelet of 'Northern Ireland'.

The only reason Irish people in the North are still voting in British state elections is because the same state overthrew the very vote in 1918 that demanded the end of that state in this country and forced Irish people to continue living under British colonial rule of a herrenvolk settler-colonial kind until *at least* the early 1970s. That irony of your analogy appears to have eluded you.

Piglet1984

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why not ?

It would seem that in Latvia residents of non Latvian (particularly Russian) ethnicity dont seem to be held in particularly high regard either by official institutions or the wider population ?

If its as easy as you suggest for anyone resident in Latvia to become full citizens why do so many people simply not bother and prefer to endure everything from mild inconvenience to outright discrimination ?

Didn't see your edit.

It doesn't however mean that the language tests are being failed. You aren't required to know the grammar, only basic conversational Latvian. Obtaining the citizenship also includes swearing your loyality to Latvia which does seem to be quite an issue with some people and this is why we are where we are. Apart from voting rights, there is no "outright discrimination".

Latvians have been extremely welcoming to all foreigners and the resources allocated to integration have been huge however all I get back is 'you effin Nazi, Stalin should have killed your grandparents or raped your mother' for not speaking to a non-Latvian in Russian. Charming.

Anyway, as we are just re-hashing what has already been said, I'm just gonna log out.

I hope that even though you support Russian as the 2nd language, you can also see the side of Latvians who do not agree with you.

Mike 1972

fando wrote: »

Foreigners (including all residents without citizenship) can't vote in Ireland, so how's that different from Latvia.

Ummmm British citizens can vote in general elections, EU citizens can vote in Euro elections, Everyone can vote in council elections..........

Mike 1972

Seanchai wrote: »

If the British had any respect for the votes of the Irish electorate they wouldn't have overthrown democracy in Ireland, as stated in the landslide Sinn Fein victory in the 1918 general election, in December 1920 and invented the statelet of 'Northern Ireland'..

It was an election to the UK parliament -not a referendum and a pretty flawed one as elections go but this thread is supposed to be about Latvia.......

fando

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Ummmm British citizens can vote in general elections, EU citizens can vote in Euro elections, Everyone can vote in council elections..........

I am saying about the most important - general elections. For me it's strange that British can vote in Irish general elections but Irish emigrants can't. If I was Irish I wouldn't want British to vote in national elections nor for Irish to vote in UK.

Mike 1972

fando wrote: »

For me it's strange that British can vote in Irish general elections but Irish emigrants can't.

Irish emigrants to the UK can vote in UK general elections and it makes perfect sense. They We pay our taxes to the UK government. We are bound by British law why would we have a vote in a country we no longer live in, pay taxes to or are affected by the laws of ?

Bur its really one for another thread.

fando

Citizenship, not residency or tax affairs should be the criteria who can vote.
Citizenship means that you care about the country you live in much enough to move up your ass, fill in a few papers, and learn a couple of words in the official language.

Mike 1972

fando wrote: »

Citizenship means that you care about the country you live in .

And what about those who dont live in it ?

fando

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And what about those who dont live in it ?

Sorry, but from what I see you just want to bicker. I don't think anything valuable can be added to this thread at this point.

Mike 1972

fando wrote: »

Sorry, but from what I see you just want to bicker.

Its hardly bickering.... First you want votes for emigrants and then you dont...which is it ?

LETHAL LADY

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Its hardly bickering.... First you want votes for emigrants and then you dont...which is it ?

To us plebs its called travis bicklering.

Duckworth_Luas

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

To us plebs its called travis bicklering.

:mad:


TAXI!

Mance Rayder

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Funny how its use is increasing so.

Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.

The Russians suffered under the USSR Just as the Germans suffered under Hitler, In fact more Russians died and suffered because of USSR policies than Latvians did. USSR does not equal Russians. USSR was made up of 15 soviet republics. Stalin was not Russian by the way. USSR brought Latvia into the 20th century. Alot of USSR funding was pumped into developing Latvia, an unfair proportion in comparison to the treatment other soviet Republics got, despite this many Latvians supported Hitler.
You cannot judge Russians on the USSR just as you cannot judge Germans on the Nazi's. Russian Latvians deserve to be treated the same as other citizens, Regardless of language.

As a side note, the most racist people I have ever met on a whole are Latvians. They Hate Russians, for being Russian.

Mance Rayder

On Russian Latvian passports they are classified as 'Aliens' instead of citizens, (It is printed on their passport ) So they cannot vote.

This is a clear violation of EU law.

It reminds me of how in some African nations they print peoples tribes in their passports, this information is constantly used to discriminate against certain tribes.

skregs

Piglet1984 wrote: »

I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage.

Cá huair a bheidh tú ag bogadh Latvia arís?