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Latvian Referendum

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135

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    #62
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    How secret was the ballot and was spoiling ones vote in protest a realistic option ?
    I assume (and I can only assume as I haven't researched it) you were voting in your locality so everybody know everybody, when voting your name would have been taken down and whistleblowing was extremely common. If you didn't turn up, they knew it. I doubt anyone was concerned about the local drunks not turning up for the election date; it was the intelligentsia they needed to show the support to the regime.

    A protest by spoiling the votes wouldn't have changed anything and the results would have been falsified anyway. You also have to remember that Russia and its predecessors have never experienced real democracy. The ordinary people supported the regime because they didn't know any better. And those that did not better were quickly eliminated from the socety (labour camps, prison, Siberia).

    @AngryBollix
    Because I am citizen of Latvia and it is my statutory right to vote in elections and referendums.


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    #63
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    Why were people who no longer live in Latvia allowed to vote?

    A lot of countries allow citizens resident abroad to vote. Dont think much of the idea myself but one for another thread really.


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    #64
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    I assume (and I can only assume as I haven't researched it) you were voting in your locality so everybody know everybody, when voting your name would have been taken down and whistleblowing was extremely common. If you didn't turn up, they knew it. I doubt anyone was concerned about the local drunks not turning up for the election date; it was the intelligentsia they needed to show the support to the regime.

    A protest by spoiling the votes wouldn't have changed anything and the results would have been falsified anyway. You also have to remember that Russia and its predecessors have never experienced real democracy. The ordinary people supported the regime because they didn't know any better. And those that did not better were quickly eliminated from the socety (labour camps, prison, Siberia).

    @AngryBollix
    Because I am citizen of Latvia and it is my statutory right to vote in elections and referendums.

    Do you live in Latvia?


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    #65
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #66
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #67
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,019 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    born2bwild wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean by the language being exclusionist.

    At any rate I'm criticising the Latvians for introducing this law. I would make the same argument if the Latvian was not recognised as an official lanaguge.

    Think about the fuss we kicked up when the EU forgot to recognise Irish as an official language! And this was for a language that almost nobody speaks on a day to day basis.

    In contrast, Russian is spoken every day in Latvia but it is not recognised alongside Lativian. Why? because the Latvians want a large part their population to have second-class citizenship in order to give the Russians the two fingers.

    I sid the law was exclusionsit, not the language. Specifically this one.

    This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #68
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    Do you live in Latvia?
    No, but I am still considered a resident of Latvia. I know that Irish citizens living abroad cannot vote however it is not the same in Latvia.

    @Aquila
    No, I don't. Were you expecting me to say yes because I am not pro-Soviet/Russia?


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    #69
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    No, but I am still considered a resident of Latvia. I know that Irish citizens living abroad cannot vote however it is not the same in Latvia.

    @Aquila
    No, I don't. Were you expecting me to say yes because I am not pro-Soviet/Russia?


    Thats quite bizarre. That you are considered a resident even though you are not a resident. Whats the thinking behind that?


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    #70
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #71
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    Thats quite bizarre. That you are considered a resident even though you are not a resident. Whats the thinking behind that?
    It's to do with tax.

    @Aquila
    Fair enough. There was no victory for Latvia, be it 16 March or 9 May. the country was simply destroyed. However, as you are asking about the Legion day, I assume you know why it being celebrated by war veterans and why the Latvian population saw the nazi regime as less evil?


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    #72
    RimaNTSS
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭RimaNTSS


    Aquila wrote: »
    Do you celebrate "legion day" personally?
    Although question was not for me, I would say that this is very politicized issue. Do you know why people during WWII joined Legion?


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    #73
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    It's to do with tax.

    What tax reasons?


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    #74
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    What tax reasons?
    If I return to Latvia to work, the State Revenue Service can ask me to pay the tax difference for the time I worked in Ireland.


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    #75
    boynesider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭boynesider


    It's only right that a countries citizens living abroad can vote and I think it's bizarre that this doesn't extend to irish emigrants.

    On the topic in question, it sounds like a very divisive decision by the latvian people to me and this can never be a good thing. If the intention was to prove a point to Russia then this was very childish IMO. Latvia is a member of the EU and this is the greatest guarantee of sovereignty a former Soviet country can have in the present situation, while Russia is a long way from being the resurgent superpower some people claim it to be.


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    #76
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    What tax reasons?

    Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

    There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case (EU directive ???).

    Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough


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    #77
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

    There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case.

    Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough


    Ok. So if I'm understanding you correctly then Latvians earn money here but pay some of their income tax to a foreign government (i.e their own)?


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    #78
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

    There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case (EU directive ???).

    Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough
    Only if you return to Latvia to work they might ask you to pay the difference but that is being phased out as result of an agreement between Latvia and Ireland. So no, we are not paying extra tax to "a foreign government" as AngryBollix put it.


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    #79
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #80
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    Ok. So if I'm understanding you correctly then Latvians earn money here but pay some of their income tax to a foreign government?

    The way it worked with Polish citizens was that they paid the normal rate of Irish income tax on their wages earned in Ireland and Polish income tax on whatever was left over :eek: It was known as "double income taxation".

    One did of course have the option of inviting the Polish tax authorities to go and copulate with themselves provided one planned on never setting foot in Poland again.

    Anyway barring any clarification from Latvian citizens whether the same still applies in Latvia lets get back on topic.............


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    #81
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #82
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    Aquila wrote: »
    I am disapointed on the result as i know many people affected by this outcome,similar to the ordeal faced by Russian speakers in Estonia.
    Putting history aside surely as a modern democratic nation this could have been a chance to show to the world that Latvia acknowledges the past,that crimes may have been commited to ethnic Latvians but it is a fully matured as ademocratic nation that doesnt dismicrate against certain citizens due to language,ethnicity because of historical grieveances
    The Latvian constitution states that Latvian is the only language in Latvia. In order to change the constitution, a referendum must be held. The referendum was held and it shows that 75% of the people do not believe that Russian should be the 2nd language? What is so un-modern and un-democratic about this?


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    #83
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    The referendum was held and it shows that 75% of the people who were allowed vote do not believe that Russian should be the 2nd language?

    FYP

    During Soviet times elections in Latvia were heavily rigged

    Plus Ca Change........


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    #84
    Zab
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    I'll admit that I know very little about the situation in Latvia.

    However, this one seems pretty simple to me and the answer is that two issues are being conflated. All these "non-citizens" who have been there since independence should automatically become citizens. Russian does not become an official language and anybody not covered by the initial clause will have to learn Latvian.


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    #85
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    FYP

    During Soviet times elections in Latvia were heavily rigged

    Plus Ca Change........
    No need to fix my post and no need to imply that the referendum was rigged.

    You will find that hardly any country will also citizens of other countries to vote in their referendums. Nothing new or sensationalist about it.


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    #86
    RimaNTSS
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭RimaNTSS


    Zab wrote: »
    However, this one seems pretty simple to me and the answer is that two issues are being conflated. All these "non-citizens" who have been there since independence should automatically become citizens. Russian does not become an official language and anybody not covered by the initial clause will have to learn Latvian.
    That is possible now- any non-sitizen can go via naturalization process and become a citizen. Many people did so, including Russians, Lithuanians, Poles you name it.

    Edit: _http://www.am.gov.lv/en/policy/4641/4642/4651/naturalisation/


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    #87
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    No need to fix my post and no need to imply that the referendum was rigged.

    You will find that hardly any country will also citizens of other countries to vote in their referendums. Nothing new or sensationalist about it.

    You can spin it anyway you like but excluding a sizeable proportion of countries native born and permanently resident population from the electoral process on ethnic grounds by rendering them practically stateless and then claiming the results of said electoral process are in any way "democratic" is a pretty bad joke even by AH standards.


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    #88
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Probably Latvian citizens living abroad have to pay Latvian income tax on top of Irish (or wherever) income tax ?

    There used to be a similar situation with Polish citizens but I think thats no longer the case (EU directive ???).

    Although Im not a massive fan of the idea of emigrants retaining a vote in their country of origin if theyre expected to pay tax its reasonable enough


    I believe we're getting into very dangerous territory if the right to vote is in any way linked to ability to pay tax.

    Many, many European countries allow their expatriate citizens to vote and encourage it. If you read Irish newspapers regularly, you will see notices published by various embassies to tell citizens when and how they can vote.

    I am a Finnish citizen and have on several occasions voted in parliamentary, local-government and presidential elections as well as in one referendum at the embassy just off St. Stephen's Green. The atmosphere is always welcoming and coffee and biscuits are usually served to those who come to "do their duty as a citizen". By contrast, I always have to make sure I'm in Ireland when it's election time here.:cool:


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    #89
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    I believe we're getting into very dangerous territory if the right to vote is in any way linked to ability to pay tax.

    Depends on ones definition of "tax". Everyone resident in Ireland pays some kind of tax........


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    #90
    Piglet1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Piglet1984


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    You can spin it anyway you like but excluding a sizeable proportion of countries native born and permanently resident population from the electoral process on ethnic grounds by rendering them stateless and then claiming the results of said electoral process are in any way "democratic" is a pretty bad joke even by AH standards.
    Anyone born after 1991, whether Latvian or non-Latvian speaking, will receive Latvian citizenship automatically. These people wouldn't be stateless if they applied for the citizenship of Latvia. You could pass the test after a couple of months of living here, it's that basic.

    And I'm not too concerned about AH standards.


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    #91
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    Anyone born after 1991, whether Latvian or non-Latvian speaking, receive Latvian citizenship automatically.

    And what of those born in Latvia before 1991 ?


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