Latvian Referendum

Mike 1972

fando wrote: »

How was that possible in Ireland?

Since Ireland became an independent state fluent Gaelic speakers have always constituted a small minority of the population.

The situation in Latvia regarding the Latvian language since independence is evidently not analogus to the Irish situation in this respect.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It beats me how these imperialistic colonisers, men who come with the gun and fire, always seem to feel they are owed special treatment after they are evicted. To put it another way, if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place Russians wouldn't now find themselves in this position..

Says a guy posting in English on an Irish website ?

born2bwild

Piglet1984 wrote: »

As a citizen of Latvia I cannot vote in any Irish referendums, so obviously the answer is no.

Also, please stop with this non-sense of 2nd class citizens.

They're known as 'non-citizens' or 'aliens' - there's nothing nonsensical about the use of the term 'second class citizen'; a bit sensationalist, maybe, but accurate.

If I cannot have a passport or vote because I cannot speak one of the two main languages in the country I am a second class citizen.

It's far from nonsense:
The BBC uses the term "non citizen" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8630304.stm

The American Government uses the term "non-citizen":
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5378.htm#people

This is not fiction. Your country had a chance to make the right decision in 1991 - it made a decision that would have made the a Soviet bureaucrat proud.

Your country had a chance to make the right decision yesterday - it made the wrong decision.

Stop enacting revenge on your own population. Your problem is with the Mussolini of St Petersburg, Vladimir Putin.

You can contact his representative in Ireland here: http://dublin.rusembassy.org/

It's time for Latvia to treat all of its citizens equally. If you don't want to make Russian an official language at least take the proficiency test requirement away - show that you welcome and trust people and they will respond positively.

Doc Ruby

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Says a guy posting in English on an Irish website ?

...how is that doing a special favour for anyone?

Zebra3

born2bwild wrote: »

However, Latvia is in the EU. It has responsibilities not only to its own people but to its neighbours; including us.

I think you may need to look at a map.

born2bwild

Doc Ruby wrote: »

If your flag is no longer flying over the state buildings, you lost.

It beats me how these imperialistic colonisers, men who come with the gun and fire, always seem to feel they are owed special treatment after they are evicted. To put it another way, if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place Russians wouldn't now find themselves in this position.

So the moral of the story is don't invade other countries really. Simples.

As I pointed out in a previous post the Soviet Union took all responsibility away from its 'citizens'.

You had no say in who ran the country.

Not only that, you often had no say in where you were sent to work; Latvia, Siberia, Kazakhstan.

These people did not come with 'the gun and fire'. They went where they were told. Refusing to do what you were told in the Soviet Union tended to bring out 'the gun and fire'.

Latvia is victimising people who were themselves victims of an oppressive empire.

That is wrong.

born2bwild

Zebra3 wrote: »

I think you may need to look at a map.

The world is smaller place than it used to be.

Even riff raff like Pat's and Shamrock Rovers can get into the ex-Soviet Union these days.

Doc Ruby

born2bwild wrote: »

As I pointed out in a previous post the Soviet Union took all responsibility away from its 'citizens'.

You had no say in who ran the country.

Not only that, you often had no say in where you were sent to work; Latvia, Siberia, Kazakhstan.

These people did not come with 'the gun and fire'. They went where they were told. Refusing to do what you were told in the Soviet Union tended to bring out 'the gun and fire'.

Latvia is victimising people who were themselves victims of an oppressive empire.

That is wrong.

Not only did the Soviets collaborate with Nazi Germany in order to invade Latvia, within living memory, something they only admitted in 1989, hundreds of thousands of Latvians were deported or murdered by the Russians in the "Soviet Terror".

You can say what you like about Russians apparently being forced at gunpoint to work in Latvia, but sooner or later someone has to take some responsibility. Thankfully the Latvians are more enlightened than the Russians and aren't deporting or murdering anyone, but I support them in their efforts to rebuild a non-segregated society and get rid of Russian influence.

Honestly, people protesting about having to learn Latvian in Latvia with a history like that.

born2bwild

born2bwild wrote: »

They're known as 'non-citizens' or 'aliens' - there's nothing nonsensical about the use of the term 'second class citizen'; a bit sensationalist, maybe, but accurate.

If I cannot have a passport or vote because I cannot speak one of the two main languages in the country I am a second class citizen.

It's far from nonsense:
The BBC uses the term "non citizen" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8630304.stm

The American Government uses the term "non-citizen":
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5378.htm#people

This is not fiction. Your country had a chance to make the right decision in 1991 - it made a decision that would have made the a Soviet bureaucrat proud.

Your country had a chance to make the right decision yesterday - it made the wrong decision.

Stop enacting revenge on your own population. Your problem is with the Mussolini of St Petersburg, Vladimir Putin.

You can contact his representative in Ireland here: http://dublin.rusembassy.org/

It's time for Latvia to treat all of its citizens equally. If you don't want to make Russian an official language at least take the proficiency test requirement away - show that you welcome and trust people and they will respond positively.

What is preventing you from getting a Latvian passport, assuming you want one, more to the point what passport are you on now?

Piglet1984

born2bwild wrote: »

The Soviet Union, an oppressive and brutal empire, colonised Latvia for half a century.

Latvia didn't 'win'; the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia got rid of "its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influence[]" in 1991.

The struggle you describe ended over two decades ago.

One of Latvia's first acts as an independent state was to disenfranchise nearly half of its population - because those people didn't have proficiency in Latvian.

The 'non-citizens' are just ordinary men, women and children.

Latvia had a chance this week to do the right thing. They did the wrong thing.

Shame on them, I say.

The use of 2nd class citizen is sensationalist and completely unncessary in this regard. This isn't the Daily Mail...

I would like to clarify that only in certain regions of Latvia, the capital and the Latgale region, there is a large non-Latvian speaking population. It is not an issue for the rest of the country (the majority).

This referendum will only create a divide between the Latvian and non-Latvian (this isn't even the right term to use as most of the actually do speak Latvian, just cannot be arsed to do it) speaking population. At the end of the day, it's all political and the people / organisations driving this don't really care about the ordinary non-Latvian speaking person.

And should you wish to recommend to the government to Latvia that the Latvian language proficiency test should be removed from the naturalisation process, you can contact the Latvian embassy in Dublin, http://www.am.gov.lv/en/ireland/. The office is on Stephen's Green.

Mike 1972

Given that non-Latvian speakers apparently constitute a minority in most parts of the country how is it necessary to resort to such measures in order to "get rid of Russian influence" (even if one buys into the notion that attempting to do so is a worthy endeavour) Surely the status of Russian as a minority language makes its decline within Latvia a probable eventuality anyway.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I support them in their efforts to rebuild a non-segregated society and get rid of Russian influence.

Ah the old "in order to make an omelette" doctrine. Ironically and alarmingly Stalinesque dont you think ?

born2bwild

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Not only did the Soviets collaborate with Nazi Germany in order to invade Latvia, within living memory, something they only admitted in 1989, hundreds of thousands of Latvians were deported or murdered by the Russians in the "Soviet Terror".

You can say what you like about Russians apparently being forced at gunpoint to work in Latvia, but sooner or later someone has to take some responsibility. Thankfully the Latvians are more enlightened than the Russians and aren't deporting or murdering anyone, but I support them in their efforts to rebuild a non-segregated society and get rid of Russian influence.

Honestly, people protesting about having to learn Latvian in Latvia with a history like that.

As an citizen of this state it offends me that some people don't make a serious effort to learn English properly.

There are many others who are even more offended by those who refuse to learn Irish.

I may be offended but I am not going to deny them basic political and social rights.

Take the example of Belgium: many Walloons can't speak Flemish and many Flemish can't speak French. These people are not suddenly deemed non-citizens.

Latvia is not the Soviet Union and I would rather live there than in Russia but the Latvians are wrong to deny votes and citizenship to nearly 300,000 people because they don't speak one of the two main languages in the country.

In this respect they are not building a fair society. What could be more segregated than a state that invents a category of non-citizen for those who do not speak one of the two main languages of the country.

The Latvians are spending too much time defining themselves as not Russian. They need to demand reparations from Moscow and do something about the injustice that their laws are inflicting hundreds of thousands of their own citizens - many of whom are not Russian at all!!!! (They're Ukrainians, Belorussians, Kazakhs, Georgians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc etc etc)

Take it up with Russia and let your own people get on with their lives.

Doc Ruby

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Given that non-Latvian speakers apparently constitute a minority in most parts of the country how is it necessary to resort to such measures in order to "get rid of Russian influence" (even if one buys into the notion that attempting to do so is a worthy endeavour) Surely the status of Russian as a minority language makes its decline within Latvia a probable eventuality anyway.



Ah the old "in order to make an omelette" doctrine. Ironically and alarmingly Stalinesque dont you think ?

Oh wait, I just spotted your location, any wonder you're defending imperialistic colonisers, hai thar nai.

born2bwild

Piglet1984 wrote: »

And should you wish to recommend to the government to Latvia that the Latvian language proficiency test should be removed from the naturalisation process, you can contact the Latvian embassy in Dublin, http://www.am.gov.lv/en/ireland/. The office is on Stephen's Green.

Ok, I will!

Paldies

Спасибо

Piglet1984

born2bwild wrote: »

They need to demand reparations from Moscow and do something about the injustice that their laws are inflicting hundreds of thousands of their own citizens - many of whom are not Russian at all!!!! (They're Ukrainians, Belorussians, Kazakhs, Georgians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc etc etc)

Take it up with Russia and let your own people get on with their lives.

Latvia has and is demading reparations from Russia however Russia is not admitting that it ever occupied Latvia.

Latvian Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians etc voted against Russian as the 2nd language.

Doc Ruby

born2bwild wrote: »

Latvia is not the Soviet Union and I would rather live there than in Russia but the Latvians are wrong to deny votes and citizenship to nearly 300,000 people because they don't speak one of the two main languages in the country.

Many if not most European countries have a language requirement for citizenship. If these people can't be arsed to learn the Latvian language in Latvia, you'd have to question how much they value their position in that country.

born2bwild wrote: »

The Latvians are spending too much time defining themselves as not Russian.

Seriously? Have you any idea of the atrocities that have been going on over there over the last seventy years? This is the process of decolonisation, and its pretty much like it or lump it.

Fair play to the Lats, and long live Latvia.

Mike 1972

Doc Ruby wrote: »

just spotted your location

Relevence ? :rolleyes:

Doc Ruby wrote: »

any wonder you're defending imperialistic colonisers

In the matter of the Soviet Union V's Latvia it seems insofar as one can colonise ones own (non)citizens to be very much an instance of new imperialistic colonisers for old.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Seriously? Have you any idea of the atrocities that have been going on over there over the last seventy years? This is the process of decolonisation

A graduate of the "two wrongs make a right" school of thought I see.

Doc Ruby

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In the matter of the Soviet Union V's Latvia it seems insofar as one can colonise ones own (non)citizens to be very much an instance of new imperialistic colonisers for old.

So the Latvians are colonising themselves? You should take up teaching contortionism in the UN college of contortionism and warped logic.

Which is even more impressive given the way you blithely sailed past the obvious comparisons with England colonising the North of Ireland and the plantations which gave rise to the society that can proudly lay claim to the title of most racist place on earth.

Mike 1972

Doc Ruby wrote: »

the title of most racist place on earth.

WTF ?

RimaNTSS

Hi! I am Latvian. I speak Latvian & Russian fluently, and have nothing against knowing Russian or any other language. I have lots of Russian-speaking friends and we can allways communicate, no probs. Referendum was to make Russian as second official State language, and that was too much. Of course I voted against it, my wife voted against, mother-in-law (was born and survived in Siberia during repatriation period of her parents) voted against, father-in-law (whose father was killed by Soviet regime) voted against etc. Just imagine how much we should pay for bureaucracy, and of course that money would be raised from additional taxes and lowering of income of everybody! In addition, if you travel back in time little bit more than 20 years, let’s say 70 years, than you can find out about occupation and several repatriation waves. Lots of Latvians just disappeared somewhere in Siberia. Soviet regime was also not so perfect time. And now they offer us do Russian as second official language! Next step would be to let Russian military bases to be located in country to protect Russian minorities! Our Language, folklore, education, national identity was beaten tortured and russified for long time and almost washed out.
BTW: Not so many Latvians enjoying this site, because (I do not know reason) it is impossible to open boards.ie within any of Latvian ISP. I use my German friend’s server to login.

Ellis Dee

I have visited Latvia only a few times, but spend a lot of time in its northern Baltic neighbour Estonia.

Before being too judgemental about the Latvians for their antipathy to the Russians and their language, people should know a little about the recent history of the three Baltic States. It is extremely disingenuous to compare Russian-speakers in Latvia to French-speakers in Switzerland, as one poster does; the latter have been in Switzerland as long as anyone else. :rolleyes:

After centuries within the Russian empire, the Baltic States became independent in 1918-19 and remained so until 1939, when Stalin demanded that they - and Finland - accept the protection of the Soviet Union and give him bases on their territory. The three Baltic States complied - realising that opposition would be quite futile - and only Finland refused, resulting in a surprise attack by the Red Army on 30 November 1939 and the death of about 106,000 Finns (along with 700,000 or so Soviets).:eek:

Meanwhile, the intelligentsia in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were liquidated or sent to Siberia, elections with only one party (guess which one!) participating were held and the three countries were incorporated into the Soviet Union at the "request" of the puppet governments that the Soviets had installed.

The three countries suffered further devastation in 1941-44, when the Germans occupied them and were again driven out.

The period until the collapse of the Soviet Union in the late 1980s saw a steady stream of Russians into the three countries, and lots more of the indigenous people being sent to Siberia. By 1990, nearly half the population of Latvia were ethnic Russians, and more than a third in Estonia.:)

Although the Soviet Union maintained a cosmetic pretence that the local cultures of these countries were being cherished and protected, in reality they were being killed using a tactic of a thousand pinpricks. I remember my wife and I trudging around Tallinn one December looking for Christmas or New Year's cards in Estonian, but none could be found. The same applied to maps of Estonia in Estonian. Worse, a typewriter with a Latin keyboard (suiting Estonian) could not be bought and a used one was worth its weight in gold. Machines with Cyrillic keyboards were available everywhere and quite inexpensive.:rolleyes:

Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians had to learn Russian, and now I see no reason why Russians should not learn the languages of the countries they live in. many of them are still a lot better off than they would be in Russia itself, since they do not belong to the New Russian oligarchy that creams off all the goodies there, otherwise they'd have fecked off back there long ago.:mad:

@Ellis

@Ellis Dee, I've never been to any of the Baltic states, but you've confirmed what had happened there. was what I had always suspected, that the Soviets tried to "Russify" the countries.

Nodin

I'm going to do meself a favour and stay the **** out of this one, save to observe that (a)Skyforger have a few good tracks and (b) I have seen a latvian woman and she was sexy. Verrry sexy. Intelligent and sexy too, from what I could gather, which is the most dangerous kind of sexy.

RimaNTSS

About voting at Soviet times:
Firstly, that was always only one candidate. Secondly, you should, I mean you must go to vote. Thirdly, does not matter if you go to vote or not go or you’ve been eaten your bulletin, there was always 99.99% “YES”.

stabeek

@born2bwild

If I was purposely looking for posters capable of throwing out(up?) cavalier comments about major national situations, surely you would have to number

Tell me you've researched and and that you're not just shooting from the hip? Tell me that your Paldies's and Spaseebah's (BTW kudos on the cyrillic) are not just token lingo citations?

PD. You now Pushkin nor Karenina (what every novels she wrote, I dunno) is not quoted by your everyday Russian Latvian.

Mike 1972

RimaNTSS wrote: »

About voting at Soviet times:
Firstly, that was always only one candidate. Secondly, you should, I mean you must go to vote. Thirdly, does not matter if you go to vote or not go or you’ve been eaten your bulletin, there was always 99.99% “YES”.

So if voting was compulsary why did they find it necessary in other parts of the USSR to offer free drinks as an inducement to vote

RimaNTSS

They found necessary to make everybody drunk not only during elections but day by day, especially at 70th and 80th

Piglet1984

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So if voting was compulsary why did they find it necessary in other parts of the USSR to offer free drinks as an inducement to vote

Not sure how compulsary it was but it was frowened upon if you didn't vote or participate in the general malarkey that was the Soviet regime. Your family, for example, could be investigated by the Cheka and could face reprocussions.

The more people voted, the more the commies could claim that they were representing the people and that there was nothing wrong with the regime.

Mike 1972

Piglet1984 wrote: »

The more people voted, the more the commies could claim that they were representing the people and that there was nothing wrong with the regime.

How secret was the ballot and was spoiling ones vote in protest a realistic option ?

Ellis Dee

RimaNTSS wrote: »

They found necessary to make everybody drunk not only during elections but day by day, especially at 70th and 80th

Yes, but the people got drunk on cheap vodka, whereas the Nomenklatura (the ruling party elite) enjoyed the best of everything. As the old Radio Yerevan joke had it: Cognac is a very fine drink that the people enjoy through their elected representatives.:)

The fact that a bottle of Stolichnaya (Столичная) vodka had a tear-off aluminium cap (i.e. couldn't be re-closed once opened) during the Soviet era said a lot about drinking habits in that country.

There's a saying in Finnish, by the way: "ryssä on aina ryssä vaikka voissa paistetaan". (A Russki is always a Russki, even though fried in butter.):eek:

AngryBollix

Piglet1984 wrote: »

I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

"This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship."

In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage. These non-latvian speaking people, who were brought in by the Soviets to russify the smaller Baltic nations, have been living in Latvia since the 60s (and their descendants) and they still haven't learned the basic Latvian. How is that even possible?! I really must question a certain nation's intelligence...

1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.
Not quite true. The younger generation (bar those living in the capital and the Latgale region) i.e. those born in the 1980s and 1990s do not speak Russian.

Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia
Nobody has been forced to leave Latvia. Funny though, they will go to, say, Germany, and learn German but they won't learn Latvian.

doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services.
Did you know that there are bi-lingual schools in Latvia? These schools are state-funded.

Why were people who no longer live in Latvia allowed to vote?