Why not Linux

Johnboy1951

Groinshot wrote: »

Yeah, that was the response I got when learning Ubuntu, from the Ubuntu forums.
I was just giving an example, not saying that was how I phrased a question.
Over the worst of it at this stage, and have gotten the hang of it, but only after breaking it multiple times.

Breaking it and fixing it are all part of the learning curve for those interested
Hopefully things have settled since.

It is indeed unfortunate that any new user should have such response when asking for help.
For me it is unacceptable and my first response would have been to advise you to find a different distro. No one needs that kind of carry on, most particularly when at the most vulnerable time of the first steps with a new venture.

BTW ...... I believe that new users of all operating systems/PCs break them a few times before they settle into how things are done etc.
I very much doubt there is any real difference in how often this happens for new users regardless of OS.

It is what happens after that the differences begin to show ..... Win user brings the PC to some local 'Win shop' to be "repaired". Win users, for the most part, are not expected to know, or have any interest in how to do the repair themselves.
..... Linux user is most often expected to be interested enough to learn how to 'repair' the OS themselves, but does have the option to have someone else do it for them.

BostonB

I don't really get the the attitude, that seems unique to Linux forums, where people are ridiculed for asking for help, or not knowing things. Why bother to reply if you don't want to help. Personally I found you get a much better response, from stackoverflow or experts exchange where people seem to enjoy helping others and solving problems.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

I don't really get the the attitude, that seems unique to Linux forums, where people are ridiculed for asking for help, or not knowing things. Why bother to reply if you don't want to help. Personally I found you get a much better response, from stackoverflow or experts exchange where people seem to enjoy helping others and solving problems.

The Ubuntu community is probably one of the most friendliest and helpful communities you will ever come across the majority of them if they could come around to your house and help they would.

There is some other distro forums maybe gentoo and some of the BSD's where there is a certain level of troubleshooting information they would expect. Which is perfectly fine.

If you're running OpenBSD well you shouldn't really be posting to mailing lists with things like "x doesn't work" this is why people get a bit annoyed as the user has done absoloutley nothing to help themselves. an OpenBSD sys admin can probably demand upward of 300e an hour. You're getting their valuable time for nothing help them help you. it's not a lot to ask and one may also learn something.

BostonB

Perfect example, the idea that some things you shouldn't ask, and that you are wasting people time by asking a question. If you don't want to answer a question don't. Don't waste your own time then complain about it, or be abusive about it. Where is the logic replying to a question that you think is a waste of your time. Its just posting to be abusive.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

Perfect example, the idea that some things you shouldn't ask, and that you are wasting people time by asking a question. If you don't want to answer a question don't. Don't waste your own time then complain about it, or be abusive about it. Where is the logic replying to a question that you think is a waste of your time. Its just posting to be abusive.

I would imagine it's called education. normally when mailing misc@openbsd.org you won't **** it up twice

syklops

BostonB wrote: »

Perfect example, the idea that some things you shouldn't ask, and that you are wasting people time by asking a question. If you don't want to answer a question don't. Don't waste your own time then complain about it, or be abusive about it. Where is the logic replying to a question that you think is a waste of your time. Its just posting to be abusive.

It depends how you do it. I browse the Unix forum on boards when I have a few minutes in work and so would never berate someone for asking a question, but I am also subscribed to a number of mailing-lists which come into my mailbox, and in many cases the sort of questions are urgent, in that the author could do with a quick response time so I sometimes divert what I am doing to answer a question if I can. This is why subscribing to mailing lists can be so helpful as you can get professional level advice quickly and expediently.

Now it doesn't happen very often but occasionally, someone sends an email and forgets that it is a free and voluntary service, and they don't explain clearly what their issue is, don't include all the versions of software or are vague in another way, this can get frustrating.

Can I make a point here, that asking for help on a linux forum is like talking to a brick wall.
"I'm having trouble with X and Y"
"try man -x, man -y"

"Eh..."
"Ok, try do such and such(bunch of terminal commands) and attach a log file"
"eh, how do I do that?"
"main such and such"
*sigh*

If you asked for help on this forum, I can guarantee you a better experience. I can't however promise you a warm reception on every forum on the interweb.

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

I would imagine it's called education. normally when mailing misc@openbsd.org you won't **** it up twice

I'd suggest that kinda approach and people discouraged by their linux experiences are not entirely unrelated.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

I'd suggest that kinda approach and people discouraged by their linux experiences are not entirely unrelated.

As i said things like OpenBSD are pretty specific generally if you're running OpenBSD you're not new to *nix and _should_ know better.

BostonB

Unfortunately its not confined to just less common Linux forums. This thread is a case in point.

BostonB

syklops wrote: »

...Now it doesn't happen very often but occasionally, someone sends an email and forgets that it is a free and voluntary service, and they don't explain clearly what their issue is, don't include all the versions of software or are vague in another way, this can get frustrating....

I think thats a signal for the frustrated person to go do something else less frustrating.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

Unfortunately its not confined to just less common Linux forums. This thread is a case in point.

You can't take this thread in isolation I don;t frequent this forum much anymore but when i do have a glance it's generally full of very polite helpful individuals.

If you're suggesting in order for every single mailing list and forum to pamper the bottoms of every individual who wants to venture into the world of linux it's just not going to happen.

But as stated there is many many helpful friendly people at this point, I don't know what your point is.

There's arseholes on mailing lists?

This is not news.

BostonB

It wasn't my point I was just agreeing with it. Maybe this thread isn't representative, it just happens to (coincidentally) fall into the stereotypical response someone else was suggesting was typical.

Khannie

BostonB wrote: »

Perfect example, the idea that some things you shouldn't ask, and that you are wasting people time by asking a question. If you don't want to answer a question don't. Don't waste your own time then complain about it, or be abusive about it. Where is the logic replying to a question that you think is a waste of your time. Its just posting to be abusive.

Well....this applies to any technical issue that you face on the internet IMO. I've been modding comp now for.....I'm not sure actually but a long time. More than 5 years I'd guess and a regular contributor for longer than that. Threads where people come on and go:

"Jaysus my printer's not working. There's a flashing orange light on the front. What do I do?"

Can get a bit frustrating at times. It's a bad start to what is likely to be a slow grind to the end. Now I'll generally try and tease the necessary information out of people but a lot of the time even a rudimentary google would sort them out.

On the flip side, it's difficult to remember sometimes what it's like to be a noob to linux. Trying to remember a time when editing text files for configuration seemed like a complete horror, or trying to get stuff compiled and ending up in a horrible frustrated, mess because you don't understand that the -dev bits need to be installed too for example. I think that's when "man blah" comes out.

A lot of the time a man of something has the answer, but reading man pages is a real skill in itself IMO. They're intimidating! If anyone ever answers any question with man bash, they should be ashamed of themselves. That page is a tome! These days if I man something I can skim it until I find exactly what I'm looking for because I know their structure etc. Back when I started out, I found the man pages relatively unhelpful.

But yeah....there are dicks on the internet. I find this forum generally very helpful and good for a chinwag. I've had limited success on the ubuntu forums, possibly because by the time I get there I'm into obscure problem land. I haven't come across any twonks on there though.

pickarooney

BostonB wrote: »

Perfect example, the idea that some things you shouldn't ask, and that you are wasting people time by asking a question. If you don't want to answer a question don't. Don't waste your own time then complain about it, or be abusive about it. Where is the logic replying to a question that you think is a waste of your time. Its just posting to be abusive.

It can be frustrating for someone who has posted a precise question on a particularly difficult issue when their thread gets buried on page 8 within an hour thanks to 100 people opening vague threads on questions which have been answered already on the same page, but apart from that it is a bit rich to post in a thread just to complain about the OP opening the thread (and thereby bumping it once more).

I like when forums have a SOLVED flag and resolved issues are automatically moved to a sub-forum.

BostonB

How about a new to linux sub forum and ban the frustrated from it. You have to have less than 500 posts to post in it.

pickarooney

BostonB wrote: »

How about a new to linux sub forum and ban the frustrated from it. You have to have less than 500 posts to post in it.

Imagine the carnage as the noobs advise one another

Khannie

pickarooney wrote: »

Imagine the carnage as the noobs advise one another

sudo chmod -R 777 /



edit: just in case. NEVER DO THIS!!!!!!!!!

BostonB

pickarooney wrote: »

Imagine the carnage as the noobs advise one another

The only way to avoid noobs though... assuming people can't resist replying to questions they don't want to answer.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

The only way to avoid noobs though... assuming people can't resist replying to questions they don't want to answer.

or you can teach them how to ask questions in future.

and hopefully the other noobs watching will also learn and so on and so forth.

humbert

BostonB wrote: »

Why can't you have a normal discussion without making personal digs Not needing anything is a good reason not to have it. Be a it car, iPhone whatever. Thats its free isn't always enough of a reason either. Obviously or free software would be dominant, and it isn't, not on the desktop.

I didn't say netbooks weren't popular I said linux on netbooks wasn't popular. hence netbooks are all windows these days and netbooks are still popular. At least they are still being sold in the shops. But I don't see any of them with Linux.

You can buy PC's with no OS. People choose not to. You can buy them pre-installed with Linux. People choose not to. Its just not popular. So that idea defunct. There's obviously more to it than that.

I was putting forward a scenario where a computer started off without a pre-installed OS. You need an OS.

That, coupled with starting the post with 'Eh?' is why I referenced your post count.

My original remark about Windows being dead if people had to choose to pay for it or use Linux for free was just my opinion and not one I'm particularly invested in. Discussing whether or not it's accurate becomes highly speculative very quickly, and frankly isn't very interesting.

I cannot agree with drawing conclusions based on people's experiences with netbooks. Netbooks are still being sold but I think most people would agree that the were largely a failure, even running Windows. I don't think that the general view of Linux has been shaped by netbooks and I don't think that it has any bearing on my hypothetical scenario.

Yes, you can get PCs with Linux and PCs with no OS but it's not standard and again doesn't apply to my scenario. (due to the fact you have to seek it out).

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

or you can teach them how to ask questions in future.

and hopefully the other noobs watching will also learn and so on and so forth.

You know from experience it doesn't work. Its an endless cycle on forums.

pickarooney wrote: »

...It can be frustrating ...thanks to 100 people opening vague threads on questions which have been answered already on the same page...

BostonB

humbert wrote: »

...Netbooks are still being sold but I think most people would agree that the were largely a failure, even running Windows...

Seems odd then that the lots of shops still have quite a variety of them for sale and only a handful of desktops. But you reckon putting it on a desktop would increase its popularity. Can't agree. Laptops would make some sense, but I'd say they'd take a critical look at the take up of Linux on netbooks first.

humbert

BostonB wrote: »

Seems odd then that the lots of shops still have quite a variety of them for sale and only a handful of desktops. But you reckon putting it on a desktop would increase its popularity. Can't agree. Laptops would make some sense, but I'd say they'd take a critical look at the take up of Linux on netbooks first.

I said PC, not desktop. Seriously, think more, post less.

BostonB

humbert wrote: »

I said PC, not desktop. Seriously, think more, post less.

More insults. If you mean PC personal computer it makes less sense. Every things a personal computer these days. Maybe you should take your own advice.

Johnboy1951

I wish to quote a post I read today, from a senior PCLinuxOS forum member to a new user, which I think is rather relevant to the discussion around RTFM attitude and the whole process of attempting to help someone who has little grasp of the innards of a PC.

Trust me, I know this all seems to want to spin your head around, when it's all new to you. We've all been there and done that too.

Hang in there, and don't get too frustrated. Basically try to stay calm, and look at this as a puzzle to solve. We have to work as a team, because only you can see your monitor, but don't necessarily understand what it's trying to tell you. Many of us do know what it's trying to tell you, but again, we can't see what you see. The trick to this whole thing is to have you do the looking, and command entering, then report to us in a manner that does allow us to see what you see.

Sometimes a single post can give all the information we need, to give you instructions for a quick fix. Other times it takes a series of posts, from us and from you, to get to the source of the problem at hand. Once we finally get there, we can then offer the best advise we know. Sometimes that is an easy fix, sometimes a harder but still correct fix, and sometimes we know the fix will be far more difficult and time consuming than simply reinstalling the system. If it comes to that, the good news is PCLinuxOS is very easy to reinstall. Always the choice is yours as to whether you wish to continue and learn something in the process, or decide the time involved is of greater value than the knowledge to be gained

Sometimes we ( I ) type a lot of information in a single reply in a manner that may be interpreted as being a bit harsh or abrupt, but it's not intended as such. It's just a matter of trying to get the information down and posted as quickly as possible, to prevent the person we're addressing from doing further damage to his/her system, if it looks like they may be heading that way.

Another thing, if you don't fully understand what's being asked of you, rather than guess and possibly make a mess of things, just ask for clarification. We do this all the time, and sometimes assume we're being very clear in our replies, and questions, and the person receiving the information, looks at it and thinks we must be from the far side of Mars, and speaking a totally alien language, different from any known on Earth. If you don't understand the language used, part of our job is helping you learn the language, as well as fix your system.

If you can have a bit of patience with us, and we you, we will figure out how to communicate effectively and get the job done.

For those interested the post is here ...
http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,104823.msg895747.html

It is one of the better explanations of the 'help' process I have seen.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

You know from experience it doesn't work. Its an endless cycle on forums.

of course it works, the cycle never ends as there'll always be someone new to teach

But when one learns then they show others and blah blah blah.

syklops

pickarooney wrote: »

It can be frustrating for someone who has posted a precise question on a particularly difficult issue when their thread gets buried on page 8 within an hour thanks to 100 people opening vague threads on questions which have been answered already on the same page, but apart from that it is a bit rich to post in a thread just to complain about the OP opening the thread (and thereby bumping it once more).

I like when forums have a SOLVED flag and resolved issues are automatically moved to a sub-forum.

Thats exactly why I stopped using the Ubuntu forums and part of the reason I stopped using Ubuntu.

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

of course it works, the cycle never ends as there'll always be someone new to teach

But when one learns then they show others and blah blah blah.

It didn't work with the people who don't use it. Which was the point of the thread.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

It didn't work with the people who don't use it. Which was the point of the thread.

At this point I have no idea what you're talking about.

Groinshot

Khannie wrote: »

sudo chmod -R 777 /



edit: just in case. NEVER DO THIS!!!!!!!!!

This was my first break on Ubuntu.
sudo chmod -4 755 /
Forgot the . in front of /

oops.