Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

Dudess

Eoin wrote: »

opinion guy wrote: »

No I believe this falls out from our sexist parental leave laws.

Sexist against women AND sexist against men.

Women get months of maternity leave, men get only 3 days. Therefore in situations where both person work it makes long term financial sense for men to stay at work and women to stay at home. This is ONLY because the law is biased this way. It should be left up to the couple as to who takes the leave (like Norway where the couple can split the X motnhs leave betweeen them however they wish) - not codified in our law.

I believe this is why we don't get women at the top echelons of business and government in this country. If men could be equally as likely to take parental leave as women then instantly the bias towards not promoting women due to fears they will take maternity leave would evaporate.

I should stress - I believe both men and women are screwed over by this. Oh and the kids too.

Sorry to nitpick, but it re-enforces your (well made) point. Men do not get any paternity leave by law.

So that leaves parental leave, annual leave, unpaid leave and Force Majeure. Parental leave can be delayed for up to 6 months. Annual leave and unpaid leave is approved at the discretion of the employer and Force Majeure only applies to an emergency when your presence is essential (and only for the immediate duration of that emergency).

Now, an employer would have to be a complete dick to not give the time off, but legally, I can't see a lot there that entitles the father the right to take even the day of the birth off, unpaid or otherwise.

I don't think that sexism in the workplace is a one way street either. It's nowhere near as bad for men as it was for women, but I don't think it's fair for men's complaints about it to be dismissed so quickly.

It's a very hard thing to quantify or to prove - but many organisations are afraid not to promote a woman, pregnant or not. Ironically, this can mean that a male candidate has to prove himself a lot more, because of his gender.

Yep, paternity leave is at the discretion of the company - all three piddling days of it.

Millicent

billybudd wrote: »

You would think so, but sadly i do not think it is true, i have seen with my own eyes women passed by for promotion for a job because they where either pregnant or it was known openly they where trying to start a family. in a lot of case these women where the better option for the jobs on offer.

That's not to do with nature though and I think it lets off bigots far too easily. By putting it down to nature, it only lets people with prejudices away with it and excuses their behaviour. I think almost everyone is capable of evolving and growing; saying the problem is in their nature means they don't have to challenge themselves to become more tolerant people.

billybudd

Dudess wrote: »

Yep, paternity leave is at the discretion of the company - all three piddling days of it.

Do you think Paternity/maternity leave should be equal? 6 months for each parent?

billybudd

Millicent wrote: »

That's not to do with nature though and I think it lets off bigots far too easily. By putting it down to nature, it only lets people with prejudices away with it and excuses their behaviour. I think almost everyone is capable of evolving and growing; saying the problem is in their nature means they don't have to challenge themselves to become more tolerant people.

I do see your argument, but in reality do you expect that to change, that train of thought that makes an employer for example pass over the best candidate just because they think the female one may get pregnant and be absent for 6 months or even a year? how do you fight that battle and win?

If you where employing a person for your own business and you had that scenario would you pick the best one for the position even though in your mind you knew she is looking to to get pregnant?

Sauve

billybudd wrote: »

Do you think Paternity/maternity leave should be equal? 6 months for each parent?

Or could a total of a year, to be divided as the couple themselves see fit work?
6 months each, or a 3+9 month split?

But essentially, yes, it should. It's heartbreaking when fathers have to return to work so quickly if they'd prefer to be at home.

billybudd

Sauve wrote: »

Or could a total of a year, to be divided as the couple themselves see fit work?
6 months each, or a 3+9 month split?

But essentially, yes, it should. It's heartbreaking when fathers have to return to work so quickly if they'd prefer to be at home.

Thats one of the first obstacles that need to be overcome, it is essential it would remove the stigma that biology has for women.

hondasam

Sauve wrote: »

Or could a total of a year, to be divided as the couple themselves see fit work?
6 months each, or a 3+9 month split?

But essentially, yes, it should. It's heartbreaking when fathers have to return to work so quickly if they'd prefer to be at home.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=parental%20leave%20ireland&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citizensinformation.ie%2Fen%2Femployment%2Femployment_rights_and_conditions%2Fleave_and_holidays%2Fparental_leave.html&ei=smM8T5ykBcW4hAfBvIHgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFzoxEU0kpvoQP1drXsPTkuBzwbtg

I would be interested to know if many fathers take parental leave.

billybudd

hondasam wrote: »

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=parental%20leave%20ireland&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citizensinformation.ie%2Fen%2Femployment%2Femployment_rights_and_conditions%2Fleave_and_holidays%2Fparental_leave.html&ei=smM8T5ykBcW4hAfBvIHgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFzoxEU0kpvoQP1drXsPTkuBzwbtg

I would be interested to know if many fathers take parental leave.

From the same page

Paternity leave
Paternity leave is not recognised in employment law in Ireland. Some employers however, grant leave to new fathers from employment. Find out more.

billybudd

Or to put it into context


Maternity leave
All female employees in Ireland are entitled to maternity leave from work immediately before and after the birth of their child. Find out more.[URL="http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/

paternity_leave.html"]Paternity leave[/URL]
Paternity leave is not recognised in employment law in Ireland. Some employers however, grant leave to new fathers from employment. Find out more.

hondasam

billybudd wrote: »

From the same page

Paternity leave
Paternity leave is not recognised in employment law in Ireland. Some employers however, grant leave to new fathers from employment. Find out more.

billybudd wrote: »

Or to put it into context


Maternity leave
All female employees in Ireland are entitled to maternity leave from work immediately before and after the birth of their child. Find out more.[URL="http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/

paternity_leave.html"]Paternity leave[/URL]
Paternity leave is not recognised in employment law in Ireland. Some employers however, grant leave to new fathers from employment. Find out more.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=breastfeeding%20work%20entitlements%20&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citizensinformation.ie%2Fen%2Fbirth_family_relationships%2Fafter_your_baby_is_born%2Fbreastfeeding.html&ei=YWg8T7D1BsbOhAfog-W3BQ&usg=AFQjCNHmfvCl5t3TtaLa4qoFBSidngZwKw


Do you think men should also get an hour each day for breastfeeding?
The woman should get more maternity leave because she had the baby, her body needs to recover.
I do think men should be entitled to some paid paternity leave.

billybudd

hondasam wrote: »

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=breastfeeding%20work%20entitlements%20&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citizensinformation.ie%2Fen%2Fbirth_family_relationships%2Fafter_your_baby_is_born%2Fbreastfeeding.html&ei=YWg8T7D1BsbOhAfog-W3BQ&usg=AFQjCNHmfvCl5t3TtaLa4qoFBSidngZwKw


Do you think men should also get an hour each day for breastfeeding?
The woman should get more maternity leave because she had the baby, her body needs to recover.
I do think men should be entitled to some paid paternity leave.

with all things been equal what about the physical and mental effect a baby has on a man?

Your assuming a large portion of women breastfeed, they dont.

Millicent

billybudd wrote: »

I do see your argument, but in reality do you expect that to change, that train of thought that makes an employer for example pass over the best candidate just because they think the female one may get pregnant and be absent for 6 months or even a year? how do you fight that battle and win?

If you where employing a person for your own business and you had that scenario would you pick the best one for the position even though in your mind you knew she is looking to to get pregnant?

I do. Splitting parental leave between whichever parent wants to avail of it would make a big difference in situations like that. Challenging viewpoints such as those makes a difference too. It's too important an issue to throw up the hands and decide we can't win it.

Millicent

hondasam wrote: »

Do you think men should also get an hour each day for breastfeeding?
The woman should get more maternity leave because she had the baby, her body needs to recover.
I do think men should be entitled to some paid paternity leave.

Not all women need that recovery time though. Depends on the woman. If both partners agree to it, why not give the male partner more leave to be with the baby?

Chuck Stone

How about if the paternity leave came with the baby and the parents then chose how best to utilise it?

Would that be better?

hondasam

billybudd wrote: »

with all things been equal what about the physical and mental effect a baby has on a man?

Your assuming a large portion of women breastfeed, they dont.

You get this time whether you breastfeed or not. Majority of children bond with the mother first.
what physical effects does a baby have on a man?

Millicent wrote: »

Not all women need that recovery time though. Depends on the woman. If both partners agree to it, why not give the male partner more leave to be with the baby?

No not all women do need the same recovery, I don't know if many men would want this time with a newborn. I am well aware not all men or women are the same and some men might want it.

Storminateacup

My OH took time off work after our child was born. I went back to work when my child was about 2 months old.

hondasam

Storminateacup wrote: »

My OH took time off work after our child was born. I went back to work when my child was about 2 months old.

would you have liked to stay at home with eva until she was 6 mths?
I know some women go back early because of their jobs, like hair dressers because they will loose their clients.

Storminateacup

No doubt Id have loved to have stayed home with her, Shes all I ever wanted from life. But at the time, for me, staying home wasn't a viable option and so, I went to work.

Not going to say it was easy, it most definately wasn't and there was mornings Id be bawling my eyes out driving on the way to work.

Having a 2 week holiday at Christmas, when my child was 7 months old -- was really the first time I really felt like I was being a "proper" mom too. Just being able to bond with her and spend the entire day.

She's spent a lot more time with both my father and her father and being honest, before I left my job, Part of me felt jealous that she loved them more than she would love me.

hondasam

Storminateacup wrote: »

She's spent a lot more time with both my father and her father and being honest, before I left my job, Part of me felt jealous that she loved them more than she would love me.

It's natural to feel this way tbh, I think mothers feel it more than dads, again not all mothers or fathers are the same. Mothers tend to feel guilty where babies are concerned.

Scanlas The 2nd

Sharrow wrote: »

hardbackwriter wrote: »

Men have always been raised to be protectors and bread winners, some say the rise in suicides has become more apparent since society changed it's views on how gender roles are defined , thus men are taught that traditional definitions of masculinity is problematic and is discouraged , some attribute this to the confused state of this generation of men

My grandmother blames the pill for the rise in young men killing themselves.
She reckons that if they had gotten the lass they were invovled 'in the family way' then he'd have to knuckle down and learn to be a family man and would be happier.

Yes gender roles are changing but while women seem to be able to take on things once considered masculine, femiphoibia seems to limit men from taking on what once were and are still by many considered to be feminine roles, such as stay at home parent, teacher, nurse ect.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

My issue with feminism is the extreme amount of "equality until it sucks for me", which is a poisonous and hypocritical mentality, and has absolutely no place in the 21st century.

Can you please back that up with a quote or a reference?

When do feminists ever get annoyed about men being treated worse than women such as having less custody rights? If you claim equality of gender is your cause then you'd think those people claiming gender equality is the goal would occasionally at least mention it.

Now maybe feminists really do car about gender equality and not advancing the interests of women. I just haven't seen that evidence.

So I think that's why some people claim feminist "want equality until it sucks for them". Does that not make sense? Why claim equality is your goal if you want to only improve female rights. If that is what you want then tell people that and you'd be seen with much more respect.

Micky Dolenz

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

When do feminists ever get annoyed about men being treated worse than women such as having less custody rights? If you claim equality of gender is your cause then you'd think those people claiming gender equality is the goal would occasionally at least mention it.

Now maybe feminists really do car about gender equality and not advancing the interests of women. I just haven't seen that evidence.

So I think that's why some people claim feminist "want equality until it sucks for them". Does that not make sense? Why claim equality is your goal if you want to only improve female rights. If that is what you want then tell people that and you'd be seen with much more respect.

I don't get this way of thinking. I personally campaign on certain issues that mean something to me. I don't campaign against all the wrongs, does this make me less of a person. I think it's a non arguement.

B0jangles

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

When do feminists ever get annoyed about men being treated worse than women such as having less custody rights? If you claim equality of gender is your cause then you'd think those people claiming gender equality is the goal would occasionally at least mention it.

Now maybe feminists really do car about gender equality and not advancing the interests of women. I just haven't seen that evidence.

So I think that's why some people claim feminist "want equality until it sucks for them". Does that not make sense? Why claim equality is your goal if you want to only improve female rights. If that is what you want then tell people that and you'd be seen with much more respect.

I have to jump in at this - many self-identified feminists have repeatedly stated in this thread that they are absolutely in favour of equal treatment of fathers when it comes to custody rights, and that the lack of paid paternity leave is very unfair.

Are you even reading the thread at all?

pickarooney

derfderf wrote: »

I completely agree with what you're saying, I expanded a bit on it in my reply to millicent. It's a 48 year old law that discriminates against men. If it was a 48 year old law discriminating against women there would have (rightly) been a feiminist campaign against it. But there's never really been enough of a need for wide spread movement for mens rights, i don't think there ever will be.

The reason women still have people fighting their corner is because all these groups were already in place from when women had it really bad. I can't think of any laws still in action that discriminate against women today. And personally I don't think in this day and age men should have to start their own sufferage group to change laws that ,I hope, any sane person thinks should be changed.

Mens issues can be sorted by changing the law, it's that simple really. Womens issues here need an overall change in parts of societies attitude. I think the only way to fix that is for the attitude to die out with the people that have them now.

It's a 48-year old law that's used to hurt children. The greatest shame is that otherwise rational adults refuse to recognise this and fix it.

billybudd

hondasam wrote: »

You get this time whether you breastfeed or not. Majority of children bond with the mother first.
what physical effects does a baby have on a man?



They bond with whoever they spend most of their early development with.

As for physical, all the mental stress to do with change leads to physical hardship.

--Kaiser--

Milicent, I am very sorry to hear of the troubles that you have gone through in your life, I truly am. That must have been hard to share.

That being said, (and I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this) I'm not sure what relevance your personal experience has on the subject matter. You may have been treated unfairly by your family, I fail to see what bearing this has on society as a whole. You may have been abused (and I genuinely am apalled that this happened) but I see this as an issue of criminalty, not rights. More females get abused than males, well, criminality in general is much higher in males.

The cynical might see you typing that post to play the pity card and to stifle male posts (I must stress that I don't think that). I think the point Eric Cartman was trying to make (although I have no idea what he really meant) is that he sees that people who are vehemently feminist have had poor treatment by males in their lives and so vigourously take up the banner of feminism in retaliation. I'm not saying I agree with this either, but I think you can see how personal experiences can sully rational thinking (at least in some way) on such a divisive matter. The previous statement applies to men as well as women by the way

Scanlas The 2nd

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

When do feminists ever get annoyed about men being treated worse than women such as having less custody rights?

Frequently
maybe if you were actually interested in the discussion and reading the thread you'd see that

--Kaiser--

bluewolf wrote: »

Frequently
maybe if you were actually interested in the discussion and reading the thread you'd see that

I think he means "When do you hear of feminist groups campaigning for men's custody rights?"

as well to ask why they don't campaign for every other thing going
sometimes you have to pick a few issues and stick to them

i wish someone would campaign for the rights though, the whole thing is an utter disgrace
frequently heartbreaking stories on parenting or pi

Storminateacup

I do think fathers should have equal rights to their children, rather than being treated like sperm donors and then if the relationship breaks down, like cash cows.

However - as with all equal rights comes equal responsibility. Everything should be split 50/50.

The only negetive to fathers and automatic equal rights would be technically, does that give rapists equal rights to any child that may be born as a result of a rape? However - I don't think it's fair to punish all men for "what ifs".

Fathers are just as important in a childs life and to a childs development as a mother is.

--Kaiser--

bluewolf wrote: »

as well to ask why they don't campaign for every other thing going
sometimes you have to pick a few issues and stick to them

i wish someone would campaign for the rights though, the whole thing is an utter disgrace
frequently heartbreaking stories on parenting or pi

Well, some could say that feminism is a bit of an anachronism in a modern, western society. Now it certainly wouldn't be in a country like, say, Saudi Arabia. Here woman can drive, vote, run for election, have jobs, go to university and so and so forth. I realise that these rights had to be fought for, truth be told if I lived 50 or 100 years ago I would be fighting for them. These days I think the cause should be more 'equality for all' not 'equality for women'.

To make a visual anology, I see gender rights as a pendulum. Back a century ago the pendulum was way to one side. Now I see the pendulum as going back too far the other way. Not an ideal situation