Do you Speak Irish?

Lord TSC

just pete wrote: »

Back in the days of school, I had absolutely no interest in learning Irish. I hated it and thought it was the biggest waste of time!
I would love to be able to speak my counties language now

Out of interest, what's stopping you? If you'd love to be able to speak Irish, why not start learning now?

just pete

Time mainly,but I do try read small pieces or listen to any radio in Irish when time allows.
Slowly but surly . . . . .

Lord TSC

just pete wrote: »

Time mainly,but I do try read small pieces or listen to any radio in Irish when time allows.
Slowly but surly . . . . .

Fair enough. Least you're trying. Good luck.

somairle

To address the nationalistic claims made here, I think for some people this is a reason for some people to learn it (though saying its the only reason is moronic). For me nationalism was certainly a reason to learn it, I was young and idealistic and being raised abroad I had this blinkered view of the Ireland and the language, I genuinely thought Irish should be spoken by everybody and anybody that didnt was somehow unpatriotic or unirish.

Of course I grew up and I no longer have those feelings, I recognise them now as naive, idealistic and petty when it comes to judging others that don't want to speak it.

But what that period of my youth gave me was a beautiful language I now enjoy learning (not even close to fluent) and speaking. I can now enjoy it for its natural beauty and enjoy some of the program's on TG4 and some of the literature. It has given me access to a community that is vibrant and fun and far from some of the accusations made here 'stuffy gaeilgeoirí/ nationalists' etc.

It is a hobby to me and shouldn't be compulsory in my view, it is in decline as a first language and is not practical for everyday life, but I am encouraged by the vibrancy of 2nd language speakers and speaking it opens up a (small) world of culture I find fascinating & also the historical element as the majority language of Ireland for the majority of its written history

9959

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

It's not them and us, it's all of us and it's all our language, right? There seems to be a nicer attitude towards the language among the younger generation. I guess we are more self confident and self assured about being Irish than the older peeps.

I believe that younger people in today's Ireland are more self-confident and assertive, be they English speaking or Irish speaking. This can only be a good thing.
'Older peeps' like Dev and his ilk were never backward in coming forward "about being Irish".
What's your point?

opti0nal

just pete wrote: »

I would love to be able to speak my counties language now

What language do they speak in your county?

In most counties, the language is English & it looks like you're doing OK on that score.

What would make you feel that your county's langauge is not English? Have Irish-language enthusiasts being trying to make you feel bad for speaking your native language?

Most of your fellow-countrymen speak English, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

just pete

just pete wrote: »

Time mainly,but I do try read small pieces or listen to any radio in Irish when time allows.
Slowly but surly . . . . .

That's what I do as well, I'm not in a hurry.
I'd like to do more, but, day to day living comes first.
It would be so much different if I lived in mainly Irish speaking environment, that's the key thing to learning a language.

BOHtox

Standard Toaster wrote: »

Afraid not...Cupla Focal
Would love to be fluent in Irish....I probably know more German the Irish :-/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNBmFveq2U

As the comment there said I've learned more Irish off this add than 12 years learning it in school :pac:

In fairness though, that guy looks like he could do with a bit of learning English first...

Ellis Dee

I got honours Irish in the Leaving Cert way back when, but never really had much practice at speaking it. Then I learned several European languages, but I'm confident I'd quickly shake the rust off my Irish if only I was in an environment where it was being used in everyday life.:)

I recently discovered what is a new language for me and find I can easily read it, but I'd have to learn a Ballymena accent to be able to speak it. Here's a brochure in that language about the cheenge-ower to digital:

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/71784/DG31101719_1c_Ulster-Scot_3Mth.pdf

Iwasfrozen

That username is already in use. wrote: »

I remember posting here last year that fella Iwasfrozen was spitting venom in another thread about the Irish language. Here he is still at it! Anyone know his deal? He seems quite troubled by the whole thing, the poor chap.

I don;t have anything against the language per se, what you do with your own time is your own business. I just don't want to pay to have it forced on people (that includes schoolchildren).

WanabeOlympian

9959 wrote: »

I believe that younger people in today's Ireland are more self-confident and assertive, be they English speaking or Irish speaking. This can only be a good thing.
'Older peeps' like Dev and his ilk were never backward in coming forward "about being Irish".
What's your point?

Younger people have a really positive attitude towards irish, usually people who hate irish or give out about it are older. Generation gap.

9959

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

Younger people have a really positive attitude towards irish, usually people who hate irish or give out about it are older. Generation gap.

Younger people who speak Irish have a really positive attitude towards Irish.
Younger people who play golf have a really positive attitude towards golf.
Younger people who collect stamps etc.

By the way, you seem to know a lot about older people and what they hate.
How come?
And what is this strange and mysterious 'generation gap' of which you speak?
Does it only apply to the Irish language or could it miraculously transmute to musical tastes, political ideals, and going-to-bed time?
I think we should be told.

Washington Irving

I only used single words mixed with English. I don't think I'd be able to string a whole sentence together as Gaeilge

opti0nal

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

Younger people have a really positive attitude towards irish, usually people who hate irish or give out about it are older. Generation gap.

Whoa! You've made some tremendous sweeping statements there.

Everyone I know, young or old, does not speak Irish. They don't hate Irish, they just don't speak it. They fuzzy have warm feelings about other people speaking Irish, but are hoping that they don't have to so so themselves.

Now, older people understand about money, so their problem is why we're spending so much of their tax money on a language that, for the most part, is not commonly used.

The Irish lobby likes to think that some people 'hate Irish' as it sets those people up as irrational, nasty West-Brits or simply unpatriotic-Irish. This allows the lobby to ignore these unpleasant critics and their awkward questions.

Fundamental issue: Why does we impose so many years of Irish-language education when the outcome is a child who will speak just 10 different phrases in Irish during their post-compulsory-Irish-education lifetime? Why not just give them a small printed card with phonetic spellings and translations?

WanabeOlympian

Thanks optional and 9959, as Mrs. Brown would say.... thaaaaat's nice! ;-)

9959

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

Thanks optional and 9959, as Mrs. Brown would say.... thaaaaat's nice! ;-)

No problem.
Perhaps you're not that young after all, if you think Mrs. Brown is funny.
Try Stewart Lee, he's quite popular with the young folk, saw him in Vicar Street a couple of years ago, very funny.
I suppose it's all about opinions.

WanabeOlympian

Oooooooooh definitely hit a nerve!! haha

Just mentioned this to my housemate who is from gaeltacht in galway and speaks it at home.... he was in disbelief and first thing he said was ' what? are they irish? what?? really?'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

Thanks optional and 9959, as Mrs. Brown would say.... thaaaaat's nice! ;-)

Something was said... not good... must reply... reply not found... default to ad homeinem.... deploy, deploy!

That username is already in use.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don;t have anything against the language per se.

You see, I have serious doubts about that. Here are some of your previous comments regarding the Irish language:

Iwasfrozen wrote:

a pointless brain dead minority language to satisfy some vague misty eyed celtic nationalist agenda dreamt up by republicans

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Pfft loser...Irish is not just your native language because some guy wrote it in a book many years ago.

And then this comment really seems to show your true colours:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is no reason to learn irish over another language other then silly nationalistic notions, there is no other explaination for it. If you like languages there are many many more useful languages for you to learn. I can see no reason, other then nationalism, for why someone would want to learn irish. There are no practical benifites to that language over other ones.

It's as clear as day, Iwasfrozen. You have deep-rooted and politically motivated issues with the language.

Is there something you're not telling us? I find it hard to believe that an Irish-born school student from an Irish background would have such sectarian views of the language and Irish culture in general, as evident in your post history.

Can ask with all due respect, are you from a Unionist background?

You seem to refer to ROI as "here in the South", and you seem to have a general distaste and disdain for indigenous Irish culture.

I'm just curious, really

9959

That username is already in use. wrote: »

You see,...

.......It's as clear as day, Iwasfrozen. You have deep-rooted and politically motivated issues with the language.

Is there something you're not telling us? I find it hard to believe that an Irish-born school student from an Irish background would have such sectarian views of the language and Irish culture in general, as evident in your post history.

Can ask with all due respect, are you from a Unionist background?

You seem to refer to ROI as "here in the South", and you seem to have a general distaste and disdain for indigenous Irish culture.

I'm just curious, really

How dare you attempt to run a background check on a 'poster'.
What is it you want to know, his religion, his nationality, his socio-economic status?

If your love and enthusiasm for the Irish language is truly apolitical, then answers to the above questions should mean diddly-squat.

Address his arguments, debate his points, disagree with his assertions, but please....PLAY THE BALL AND NOT THE MAN!

Wibbs

That username is already in use. wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that an Irish-born school student from an Irish background would have such sectarian views of the language and Irish culture in general

I don't find it particularly hard to believe TBH. It seems the language for most is met with an odd mix of "oh yea it's OK/part of our culture or something" mixed with indifference, for "Irish-born school students" add in "oh christ not double Irish after lunch". A set of attitudes not found with other aspects of our culture like Irish sports and Irish music. The latter are significantly more popular and enjoyed and promoted and played by a much larger chunk of the population.

With the Irish language the proof of the pudding is in the eating. A century after the Brits left, a century of promotion, economic support and legislation and we have seen the Gaelthachts shrink significantly, fluency drop off and overall usage of the language fall to around 20%(at best). Many more people spoke Irish in say 1900 under British rule, than speak it now. Left to our own devices it seems as a culture we're simply not that interested beyond lip service.

Wibbs

9959 wrote: »

If your love and enthusiasm for the Irish language is truly apolitical, then answers to the above questions should mean diddly-squat.

Meh, this is what nearly always happens with the Irish language buffs, the veiled and often not so veiled intimation that non speakers are not quite Irish enough or are "west Brits". Sometimes it's an insult, but often IMHO it's just that they can't get their head around the idea that an Irish person born and bred just isn't that interested in their hobby horse. It doesn't compute for them. It stems from a very narrow version of Irishness, a victorian "celtic" vision, twee, rural, catholic(in background if not practice anymore), republican with a small "R" kinda thing.

Iwasfrozen

That username is already in use. wrote: »

You see, I have serious doubts about that. Here are some of your previous comments regarding the Irish language:





And then this comment really seems to show your true colours:



It's as clear as day, Iwasfrozen. You have deep-rooted and politically motivated issues with the language.

Is there something you're not telling us? I find it hard to believe that an Irish-born school student from an Irish background would have such sectarian views of the language and Irish culture in general, as evident in your post history.

Can ask with all due respect, are you from a Unionist background?

You seem to refer to ROI as "here in the South", and you seem to have a general distaste and disdain for indigenous Irish culture.

I'm just curious, really

Wait a minute. Show me that third quote I never remember writing that.

As for the other quotes:
1. Yes irish is brain dead. It's being kept alive by government life support.
2. No I can't see any other reason to learn irish above another language other then nationalism.
3. Yes nationalism is a silly ideology. We are separated more by wealth and social class then nationalism or race.
4. Yes I am Irish born and bred.
5. No I am not from a unionist background.
6. If you don't stop attacking me personally I'm going to start reporting your posts.

opti0nal

seamus wrote: »

What shocks me most is that nearly everyone spends 13 years learning the language and the vast majority of people leave school barely able to string a sentence or two together. In 13 years we should all be fluent.

Maybe the children don't want to speak Irish?
People are funny that way. You force them to do things they don't want to do, and then when they no longer have to, they stop.

Nowt as queer as folk.

Wibbs

opti0nal wrote: »

Maybe the children don't want to speak Irish?
People are funny that way. You force them to do things they don't want to do, and then when they no longer have to, they stop.

Nowt as queer as folk.

What's odder is that this happened in the civil service. When the daily usage regulation went out, so did daily usage and these were people who could already speak the language. Like the Irish diaspora in the US and elsewhere who dropped the language like a stone the first chance they got. Certainly when compared to other immigrant cultures. More people of Dutch descent speak Dutch than Irish people speak Irish in the US. The Irish Americans number nearly 40 million, one of the biggest sub groups in the US, yet the language is at number 76 in the list of languages spoken there. IMH we have a very strange and often contrary relationship with this particular aspect of our culture and history.

An Coilean

Wibbs wrote: »

Like the Irish diaspora in the US and elsewhere who dropped the language like a stone the first chance they got. Certainly when compared to other immigrant cultures. More people of Dutch descent speak Dutch than Irish people speak Irish in the US. The Irish Americans number nearly 40 million, one of the biggest sub groups in the US, yet the language is at number 76 in the list of languages spoken there. IMH we have a very strange and often contrary relationship with this particular aspect of our culture and history.

There are certain factors that suggest why Irish was not retained to the same extent by the Irish community as Itialian was by the Italian community for example.

Ireland at the time of the Famine may have been a majority Irish speaking country, but it was not an Irish only speaking country, not every Irish emigrant to the US spoke Irish, even at that, many that did have Irish had English as well.
This means that from day one English had a strong foothold in the Irish emigrant community.

Compare that with Italian emigrants, all of them had Italian and very few would have had good English. They had no need to speak English to other members of their own comunity and as such speaking Italian became a badge of membership of their comunity.

Thats not to say that Irish was not spoken in the Irish community, it was. I'v heard plenty of stories about Irish being spoken in the states. Bosten had more Irish speakers than Conemara at some points (And they were all from Conemara)
Irish is still spoken in the US today, there is even a campaign to set up a Gaelscoil in New York.


PS: Can you provide a Link to the list of languages spoken in the US you mentioned?

Wibbs

An Coilean wrote: »

There are certain factors that suggest why Irish was not retained to the same extent by the Irish community as Itialian was by the Italian community for example.

Ireland at the time of the Famine may have been a majority Irish speaking country, but it was not an Irish only speaking country, not every Irish emigrant to the US spoke Irish, even at that, many that did have Irish had English as well.
This means that from day one English had a strong foothold in the Irish emigrant community.

Sure, that's true AC, but still the speed we dropped the language is both telling and a tad embarrassing, yet at the same time we "wore the green" as a banner of our Irishness. America today has enough examples of that. We have the St Paddies day parades throughout the US, yet where is the St Cathy parades for the Italians? And your Latins love an oul parade/excuse for a kneesup even more than we do. Yet the language is effectively dead within the community?

Thats not to say that Irish was not spoken in the Irish community, it was. I'v heard plenty of stories about Irish being spoken in the states. Bosten had more Irish speakers than Conemara at some points (And they were all from Conemara)
Irish is still spoken in the US today, there is even a campaign to set up a Gaelscoil in New York.

Yet today, even with close on forty million Americans claiming Irish ancestry, it's the 76th language spoken? Ehhh... Like I said there are many more niche languages been spoken by much smaller ethnic groups. Not just in the US either.

PS: Can you provide a Link to the list of languages spoken in the US you mentioned?

Well good old wikipedia is one source. The fact is as a nation/culture/people it seems we're not so wedded to the language. Less speak it today in this country than in 1910 when the Brits were in control, even with all the resources thrown at it. We dropped it like a hot snot when we left Ireland when compared to any other culture/diaspora you care to mention and most people in Ireland today are very "meh" about the language. At this stage, if we wanted it, like we want GAA and Irish trad music we're long beyond the point where we can blame perfidious Albion. Put it another way there are far more GAA teams being rustled together and working outside of Ireland than there are Gaelscoils. It seems we're quite happy to think someone out there speaks it, to make us feel better, but equally we as a majority are not so pushed in speaking it ourselves. The cupla focal beer ad folks are hardly indicative of a languages health, neither are the pidgin Oirish types happy to abuse a language on "foreign" holidays because the locals are ignorant of it. The stats across this century in this country and in the last two centuries in other countries speak for themselves and no amount of rhetoric, or indeed truly heartfelt opinion can deny it. The joke is I think this is a pity, but there it is.

An Coilean

Wibbs wrote: »

Sure, that's true AC, but still the speed we dropped the language is both telling and a tad embarrassing, yet at the same time we "wore the green" as a banner of our Irishness. America today has enough examples of that. We have the St Paddies day parades throughout the US, yet where is the St Cathy parades for the Italians? And your Latins love an oul parade/excuse for a kneesup even more than we do. Yet the language is effectively dead within the community?

I don't know whats so embarrasing to be honnest, you are the only person i'v ever seen comment on it, and even then you only have your opinion, i'v never seen any facts of figures to base embarassement on.

The Irish are an old community in Americia relativly speaking, you won't find many 3-4th generation speakers of any emigrant languages in America, its the fate of emigrant languages to die out in emigrant communities, there wont be much Polish left in Ireland in 100 years either, simple fact, nothing for Polish people to be embarrised about.

Yet today, even with close on forty million Americans claiming Irish ancestry, it's the 76th language spoken? Ehhh... Like I said there are many more niche languages been spoken by much smaller ethnic groups. Not just in the US either.

Yep, but those 40 million are mostly 3-5 generation, now for those smaller comunities that are higher on the list, whats the betting that they are mostly on their 1-2 generation?

Well good old wikipedia is one source. The fact is as a nation/culture/people it seems we're not so wedded to the language. Less speak it today in this country than in 1910 when the Brits were in control, even with all the resources thrown at it. We dropped it like a hot snot when we left Ireland when compared to any other culture/diaspora you care to mention and most people in Ireland today are very "meh" about the language.

Ah now, all you have here is Wikipedia and your own opinion, neither of which is famous for reliability.

At this stage, if we wanted it, like we want GAA and Irish trad music we're long beyond the point where we can blame perfidious Albion. Put it another way there are far more GAA teams being rustled together and working outside of Ireland than there are Gaelscoils.

If you only count Gaelscoils, but there are plenty of Irish Language groups outside Ireland, You will find Irish classes up and down the states, and the UK, and just about anywhere else you find Irish people in numbers.
Even where there is not an active Irish Language group, GAA clubs, or Irish Trad Groups often organise Irish Classes, promoiting the Language is also one of the aims of both the GAA and CCÉ

It seems we're quite happy to think someone out there speaks it, to make us feel better

Indeed, that does nort mean that there are not hundreds of thousands of Irish speakers outside Ireland though.

The stats across this century in this country and in the last two centuries in other countries speak for themselves and no amount of rhetoric, or indeed truly heartfelt opinion can deny it. The joke is I think this is a pity, but there it is.

I have yet to see any stats for Irish in other countries for the last two centuries, perhaps you would be good enough to provide some?


Stats like the number of Irish speakers in Gaeltacht areas holding steady for about the last 50 years? Stats like a greater proportation of the Irish population claiming to know some Irish in the last census than any time since the famine?
Its quite easy to make stats paint any picture you want, so no they definatly do not speak for themselves.

Wibbs

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't know whats so embarrasing to be honnest, you are the only person i'v ever seen comment on it, and even then you only have your opinion, i'v never seen any facts of figures to base embarassement on.

What(by a huge margin) is the majority language of Irish people in Ireland and people of Irish descent worldwide? Way more of the latter speak Spanish than Irish.

The Irish are an old community in Americia relativly speaking, you won't find many 3-4th generation speakers of any emigrant languages in America, its the fate of emigrant languages to die out in emigrant communities, there wont be much Polish left in Ireland in 100 years either, simple fact, nothing for Polish people to be embarrised about.

Yep, but those 40 million are mostly 3-5 generation, now for those smaller comunities that are higher on the list, whats the betting that they are mostly on their 1-2 generation?

Nope. Not quite. The Chinese have been in the US for as long as the Irish, the Dutch and the Germans have been there a lot longer. Chinese is the third most spoken language in the US. Those claiming Dutch ancestry make up only 5 million Americans, compared to nearly 40 million claiming Irish ancestry, yet seven times more people speak Dutch than Irish. German used to be America's second language only receding due to government/cultural pressure during world war 1. Even so it's still spoken by over a million people today and is north Dakota's second language.

Ah now, all you have here is Wikipedia and your own opinion, neither of which is famous for reliability.

Ah bless, the wiki defence and the little dig. OK http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/language/ Work away. The Wiki entry comes from these census stats.

Indeed, that does nort mean that there are not hundreds of thousands of Irish speakers outside Ireland though.

Hundreds of thousands? Whose picking wishful thinking stats from the air now? The US has the largest Irish diaspora on the planet and 20,000 claim they speak it. I say claim as going by our own census the numbers of those with "cupla focal" fluency claiming they speak it would suggest some level of invention. Americans may be different in this, however hundreds of thousands is pie in the sky. Hundreds of thousands is pie in the sky in Ireland for fecks sake.

Stats like the number of Irish speakers in Gaeltacht areas holding steady for about the last 50 years?

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaeltacht_1926.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaeltacht_1956.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaeltacht_2007.jpg
Pictures paint a thousand words. In this case as Bearla. Wiki defence? Those pics are in other places, but colour me lazy.

Stats like a greater proportation of the Irish population claiming to know some Irish in the last census than any time since the famine?

Emphasis mine. I know "some Irish", I can even get the general gist of a conversation. However I am not, nor could/would I claim to be an Irish speaker. I know some Latin, Spanish, French and a bit of Dutch too, but I can't claim I speak any of them. Claiming some [insert language here] does not a healthy language make and it's a daft claim to make and to reference. Then again that's been a feature of the Irish language supporters for a long time.

Its quite easy to make stats paint any picture you want, so no they definatly do not speak for themselves.

Indeed, what does speak for itself is how few Irish people can understand the language. If Boards.ie decided amarach - in a fit of economic and community suicide - to go all Irish, it would go from a member base of tens of thousands to a couple of hundred. At best. And of that couple of hundred you'd have maybe tens of people who would have as much fluency in Irish as they would in English. Put it another way, if the Irish speaking mods of Teach na nGealt stepped down tomorrow the site would have a hard time replacing them. Indeed Teach na nGealt has been going since 07 in a prominent place within the After Hours heirarchy, yet I've seen small forums, both private and public going for a year with more posts and posters. It's great to have the forum, but it's a "hobby" forum(nothing wrong with that), it's hardly a reflection of the Irish culture at large. Or maybe it is?

9959

In relation to Religion, Politics or Irish Language devotees.
1 Zealot = 1,000 'I'm just tryin' to get on with my life thanks and couldn't be arsed'.

Don't have a source for the above other than personal experience and common sense, though 'LANA BUS' would be emblematic of this idiocy.

By the way, in these straitened times, it's prudent to keep a 'weather eye' on ideologues, cranks and single-issue bores of every stripe.
A 'little bit' of zealotry can go a long way, as we on this island know to our cost.