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Do you Speak Irish?
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An Coilean wrote: »When was this explosion and what did it coincide with?
If you are serious then you will find all in other forums than After Hours. The topics come up regularly in parents forum as well as educational and political forums on these boards, I contributed to many over the years, the problems and issues span about 15 years and the growing militancy of the Irish Schools and indeed the Irish Speakers is well documented and would be well worth your time doing the research.0 -
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I'm also fluent pretty much...I got an A1 in HL in my leaving cert for it
Assuming thats true, that does not mean your fluent, or anything close to it.It's barely even a language anymore. Perhaps it was nice once, but there's an obvious fault somewhere. It stopped developing properly when it stopped being spoken by the entire country, and as a result we have extremely odd looking words with no links to english (like fear and bean), which is the way it should be if that's how it occurred naturally, and then we have words like "carr" and "raidió". You're almost learning someone's gibberish.
Oh dear, Oh deary dearington.
I suppose its been a while since this one was brought up, perhaps this is the Irish Language threads version of a Godwin.
Anyway, the problems with this argument are many and varied.
First off, you shot yourself in the foot a bit with the examples you gave, Carr is a word that goes back a long way in Irish, the first written example of it in Irish predates the first writen example of Car in English. But thats neither here nor there really because the whole basis of your argument is so totally wrong.
Its wrong for two main reasons, firstly there are things called Language Families. Almost every Language in western Europe is realted, the Romance languages are as you may know related as they derive from Latin, but going back further than that, Germanic languages such as German and English and Celtic Languages such as Irish and Welsh and the romance languages are all realted back to Indo-European and as such (To a lesser extent between language families) traces of commonality can be found between what at first glance seem totally destinct languages.
(Others could do the topic of Language Families and the relation between them so much more justice)
Anyway, the presence of words that seem very simillar in two different languages does not mean that one has borrowed the word recently or at all, as the Carr/Car example illustrates nicely.
Another example between Irish and English would be Ród/Road.
Secondly, where words are recent borrowings from other languages, so what? It is very common, especially for teconological developments.
You give Radio as an Example, but if you don't mind I will take the word Television as the example here.
English Television, Irish Teilifís.
Now I suppose as is usually the case we are to take the English as being the corect natural organic word, and the Irish as a made up artificial word?
Of course the Tele bit in English came from the Greek - Tele. And the French for Television is télévision, The Spanish is televisión, and the Polish is Telewizja, so its not like Irish is the only language to be somewhat simillar to the English, is it?
The same is true of Radio and many many other things.
The real fundemental problem with the argument though is that it is based on the notion that a language borrowing words from another language is a sign of a problem. The flaw with that logic being that English has borrowed more words from other languages than any other language in existance.0 -
An Coilean wrote: »English has borrowed more words from other languages than any other language in existance.
But, English also supplies all new words to science, Air Traffic Control, Weather, Space exploration, Astronomy, Microscopy, Atom Colliders and is used as the international language in Air Traffic Control, The Sciences and Maritime Comms.
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But, English also supplies all new words to science, Air Traffic Control, Weather, Space exploration, Astronomy, Microscopy, Atom Colliders and is used as the international language in Air Traffic Control, The Sciences and Maritime Comms.
And if French or German etc etc, borrow a term from English does that make those languages gibberish?
That is the argument made against Irish when Irish borrows terms, is it true, and if it is, is it only true of Irish?
French borrows a word from English and thats fine, but if Irish does, it proves Irish is not really a language anymore.:D
If that really is what you are suggesting here, then your logic is interesting to say the least.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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While I see your point P and would even say(obviously IMHO) when it contracted to the point where the highly educated had deserted it back in the day it lost something alright. being dumbed down further so english speakers can learn it disn't help. It's a fair way from old and middle Irish, the language of the bards etc in complexity. Even there Irish is close to Latin in a lot of ways. With a fair few old Irish words you can trace them straight back to the Latin. No language is an island(though Basque is bloody freakaaay alright). Even things like there's historically no firm word for Yes in Irish(sea and ta are later), just like in Latin.which is the way it should be if that's how it occurred naturally, and then we have words like "carr" and "raidió". You're almost learning someone's gibberish.
That said most languages are full of loan words. English is damn near a language made up of them. English got a few from Irish. Clock an obvious one. From the word for Bell as Gaelige. The monastic settlements rang out their bells for theirs and community time and since the Irish monastic movement was so influential... So it's now coming up to 7 bells. Mna for women might have come from the Latin Femina? I dunno, where's Enkidu who knows this stuff when you need him.
Radio is (kinda)from Latin so blame the Italians for that one. Funny enough Carr is an actual old Celtic word for a wagon or chariot which the Romans nicked and converted to "carrus"(if a roman was in doubt add an "us" to the end and he's in the pink), which then went on to give the english word for car(via middle english IIRC). Gluastain which seems to have come up as a "culturally correct" name is totally makey uppy. "Fast thing" my arse.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59041
I wouldn't go through those words with an etymology book in hand... Traffic is French as is Control. Weather is Dutch/German I think(wetter*)? Astronomy is just taking the piss as it's a near complete lift of the Greek word, save for spelling.But, English also supplies all new words to science, Air Traffic Control, Weather, Space exploration, Astronomy, Microscopy, Atom Colliders and is used as the international language in Air Traffic Control, The Sciences and Maritime Comms.
* I figure that if life was fair and descriptive that would be of Irish origin...Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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It is true, and umm, actually it does...So I'm nothing close to fluent, am I not? Because you can't really judge that from a bit of background information, and it's not as if the exam is a walk in the park. I've posted around Teach na nGealt before and been complimented on my level of Irish, so your dismissive comments aren't very informed. I didn't claim to be a diehard speaker, quite the opposite if anything.An Coilean wrote: »Assuming thats true, that does not mean your fluent, or anything close to it.
My mistake then, how was I to know? I was told that the "real" word is "gluaisteán" or something.An Coilean wrote: »Oh dear, Oh deary dearington.
I suppose its been a while since this one was brought up, perhaps this is the Irish Language threads version of a Godwin.
Anyway, the problems with this argument are many and varied.
First off, you shot yourself in the foot a bit with the examples you gave, Carr is a word that goes back a long way in Irish, the first written example of it in Irish predates the first writen example of Car in English. But thats neither here nor there really because the whole basis of your argument is so totally wrong.
I know, I study a bit of linguistics so I'm no stranger to those facts, and indeed there are those small similarities that just don't exist in English but that you could find in German and Irish (like the word "um"). I've never even heard the word ród, just bóthar, and I can't think of any more at the moment but there are definitely more - I suppose a good example is if you were to flick through the LC Irish exam papers, many words are written like this and they're in English, because there's no word for them in Irish. What about zú? It's often used and it's not even a word apparently. That's the kind of thing that gets tedious.An Coilean wrote: »Its wrong for two main reasons, firstly there are things called Language Families. Almost every Language in western Europe is realted, the Romance languages are as you may know related as they derive from Latin, but going back further than that, Germanic languages such as German and English and Celtic Languages such as Irish and Welsh and the romance languages are all realted back to Indo-European and as such (To a lesser extent between language families) traces of commonality can be found between what at first glance seem totally destinct languages.
(Others could do the topic of Language Families and the relation between them so much more justice)
Anyway, the presence of words that seem very simillar in two different languages does not mean that one has borrowed the word recently or at all, as the Carr/Car example illustrates nicely.
Another example between Irish and English would be Ród/Road.
It's not a problem at all. My problem is the artificiality of it. French adopted "le weekend", Spanish has kept "el fin de semana". That's just how the languages have evolved, but Irish doesn't evolve in that way because it's just not widely-spoken enough and often it seems someone's just sat down, looked at the word and made it look and sound more Irish. Also, teilifís I don't dispute for the reasons you gave above, it originally came to mind but I'm aware of its background.An Coilean wrote: »Secondly, where words are recent borrowings from other languages, so what? It is very common, especially for teconological developments.
You give Radio as an Example, but if you don't mind I will take the word Television as the example here.
English Television, Irish Teilifís.
Now I suppose as is usually the case we are to take the English as being the corect natural organic word, and the Irish as a made up artificial word?
Of course the Tele bit in English came from the Greek - Tele. And the French for Television is télévision, The Spanish is televisión, and the Polish is Telewizja, so its not like Irish is the only language to be somewhat simillar to the English, is it?
The same is true of Radio and many many other things.
It's fine to borrow words like café rather than make a new word for them. But as I said my problem is that Irish (or at least what I was exposed to) has become very diluted with English words with fadas sprinkled on them to make it sound legitimate.An Coilean wrote: »The real fundemental problem with the argument though is that it is based on the notion that a language borrowing words from another language is a sign of a problem. The flaw with that logic being that English has borrowed more words from other languages than any other language in existance.
This is what I mean - people didn't like the cases, so the genitive has apparently started to disappear and be replaced with "de".While I see your point P and would even say(obviously IMHO) when it contracted to the point where the highly educated had deserted it back in the day it lost something alright. being dumbed down further so english speakers can learn it disn't help. It's a fair way from old and middle Irish, the language of the bards etc in complexity. Even there Irish is close to Latin in a lot of ways. With a fair few old Irish words you can trace them straight back to the Latin. No language is an island(though Basque is bloody freakaaay alright). Even things like there's historically no firm word for Yes in Irish(sea and ta are later), just like in Latin.
Oh, I would have thought Irish took clog from clock rather than the other way around. And again, I don't find words like mná silly, I like that they're more genuine Irish.That said most languages are full of loan words. English is damn near a language made up of them. English got a few from Irish. Clock an obvious one. From the word for Bell as Gaelige. The monastic settlements rang out their bells for theirs and community time and since the Irish monastic movement was so influential... So it's now coming up to 7 bells. Mna for women might have come from the Latin Femina? I dunno, where's Enkidu who knows this stuff when you need him.
Ahhh that makes sense actually, I remember reading something about Canadian French calling cars something that came from chariot. I'd always been told gluastain was the real version but that people just kept saying carr and it got accepted, guess I was misinformed! :pac:Radio is (kinda)from Latin so blame the Italians for that one. Funny enough Carr is an actual old Celtic word for a wagon or chariot which the Romans nicked and converted to "carrus"(if a roman was in doubt add an "us" to the end and he's in the pink), which then went on to give the english word for car(via middle english IIRC). Gluastain which seems to have come up as a "culturally correct" name is totally makey uppy. "Fast thing" my arse.0 -
Even things like there's historically no firm word for Yes in Irish(sea and ta are later), just like in Latin.
Neither Sea, nor Tá are later. Neither mean Yes either.
Sea, comming from 'Is ea' means 'it is',
Tá - 'Tá mé'/'Táim', means 'I am', both can be used for Yes in certain situations, depends on the question.
The situation is not helped by lazy/uninformed teachers when asked what the Irish for Yes is, saying Sea.Gluastain which seems to have come up as a "culturally correct" name is totally makey uppy. "Fast thing" my arse.
Gluaisteán dosen't mean fast thing, It comes from the Irish 'Gluais' Meaning move/glide
Other related words would be Gluaiseacht - Movement(Political)
Gluaisteán is really a translation of Automobile. Its a recent made up word, but then again, so is Automobile.
While i'm on it, why when discussing this topic, do some people say 'Thats only a made-up word' as if that means something, every word was made up. 0 -
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Put so more elequently than i could but pivotal in arguing against those who constantly deride Irish as makey uppy.An Coilean wrote: »Neither Sea, nor Tá are later. Neither mean Yes either.
Sea, comming from 'Is ea' means 'it is',
Tá - 'Tá mé'/'Táim', means 'I am', both can be used for Yes in certain situations, depends on the question.
The situation is not helped by lazy/uninformed teachers when asked what the Irish for Yes is, saying Sea.
Gluaisteán dosen't mean fast thing, It comes from the Irish 'Gluais' Meaning move/glide
Other related words would be Gluaiseacht - Movement(Political)
Gluaisteán is really a translation of Automobile. Its a recent made up word, but then again, so is Automobile.
While i'm on it, why when discussing this topic, do some people say 'Thats only a made-up word' as if that means something, every word was made up.0 -
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