Gasligthing. Ever been told you are over reacting when you are not?

Morag

Found this article on one of m feeds this morning and thought I'd share.
I think we've all had someone try to tell us we are over reacting at some stage, be it in person or on line.

http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/

You’re so sensitive. You’re so emotional. You’re defensive. You’re overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You’re crazy! I was just joking, don’t you have a sense of humor? You’re so dramatic. Just get over it already!

Sound familiar?

If you’re a woman, it probably does.

Do you ever hear any of these comments from your spouse, partner, boss, friends, colleagues, or relatives after you have expressed frustration, sadness, or anger about something they have done or said?

When someone says these things to you, it’s not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling—that’s inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, “Calm down, you’re overreacting,” after you just addressed someone else’s bad behavior, is emotional manipulation—pure and simple.

And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It’s patently false and unfair.

I think it’s time to separate inconsiderate behavior from emotional manipulation and we need to use a word not found in our normal vocabulary.

I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a term, often used by mental health professionals (I am not one), to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they’re crazy.

The term comes from the 1944 MGM film, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. Bergman’s husband in the film, played by Charles Boyer, wants to get his hands on her jewelry. He realizes he can accomplish this by having her certified as insane and hauled off to a mental institution. To pull of this task, he intentionally sets the gaslights in their home to flicker off and on, and every time Bergman’s character reacts to it, he tells her she’s just seeing things. In this setting, a gaslighter is someone who presents false information to alter the victim’s perception of him or herself.

Today, when the term is referenced, it’s usually because the perpetrator says things like, “You’re so stupid” or “No one will ever want you,” to the victim. This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting, much like the actions of Charles Boyer’s character in Gaslight, where he strategically plots to confuse Ingrid Bergman’s character into believing herself unhinged.

The form of gaslighting I’m addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another.

Those who engage in gaslighting create a reaction—whether it’s anger, frustration, sadness—in the person they are dealing with. Then, when that person reacts, the gaslighter makes them feel uncomfortable and insecure by behaving as if their feelings aren’t rational or normal.

My friend Anna (all names changed to protect privacy) is married to a man who feels it necessary to make random and unprompted comments about her weight. Whenever she gets upset or frustrated with his insensitive comments, he responds in the same, defeating way, “You’re so sensitive. I’m just joking.”

My friend Abbie works for a man who finds a way, almost daily, to unnecessarily to unnecessarily shoot down her performance and her work product. Comments like, “Can’t you do something right?” or “Why did I hire you?” are regular occurrences for her. Her boss has no problem firing people (he does it regularly), so you wouldn’t know that based on these comments, Abbie has worked for him for six years. But every time she stands up for herself and says, “It doesn’t help me when you say these things,” she gets the same reaction: “Relax; you’re overreacting.”

Abbie thinks her boss is just being a jerk in these moments, but the truth is, he is making those comments to manipulate her into thinking her reactions are out of whack. And it’s exactly that kind manipulation that has left her feeling guilty about being sensitive, and as a result, she has not left her job.

But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, “You’re so sensitive,” to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, the speaker is making a judgment about how someone else should feel.

While dealing with gaslighting isn’t a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships.

And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting.

Why?

Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men.

It’s a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they don’t refuse our burdens as easily. It’s the ultimate cowardice.

Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: it renders some women emotionally mute.

These women aren’t able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They can’t tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They can’t tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good.

When these women receive any sort of push back to their reactions, they often brush it off by saying, “Forget it, it’s okay.”

That “forget it” isn’t just about dismissing a thought, it is about self-dismissal. It’s heartbreaking.

No wonder some women are unconsciously passive aggressive when expressing anger, sadness, or frustration. For years, they have been subjected to so much gaslighting that they can no longer express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them.

They say, “I’m sorry,” before giving their opinion. In an email or text message, they place a smiley face next to a serious question or concern, thereby reducing the impact of having to express their true feelings.

You know how it looks: “You’re late ”

These are the same women who stay in relationships they don’t belong in, who don’t follow their dreams, who withdraw from the kind of life they want to live.

Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as “crazy” has really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general.

From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration.

Just the other day, on a flight from San Francisco to Los Angeles, a flight attendant who had come to recognize me from my many trips asked me what I did for a living. When I told her that I write mainly about women, she immediately laughed and asked, “Oh, about how crazy we are?”

Her gut reaction to my work made me really depressed. While she made her response in jest, her question nonetheless makes visible a pattern of sexist commentary that travels through all facets of society on how men view women, which also greatly impacts how women may view themselves.

As far as I am concerned, the epidemic of gaslighting is part of the struggle against the obstacles of inequality that women constantly face. Acts of gaslighting steal their most powerful tool: their voice. This is something we do to women every day, in many different ways.

I don’t think this idea that women are “crazy,” is based in some sort of massive conspiracy. Rather, I believe it’s connected to the slow and steady drumbeat of women being undermined and dismissed, on a daily basis. And gaslighting is one of many reasons why we are dealing with this public construction of women as “crazy.”

I recognize that I’ve been guilty of gaslighting my women friends in the past (but never my male friends—surprise, surprise). It’s shameful, but I’m glad I realized that I did it on occasion and put a stop to it.

While I take total responsibility for my actions, I do believe that I, along with many men, am a byproduct of our conditioning. It’s about the general insight our conditioning gives us into admitting fault and exposing any emotion.

When we are discouraged in our youth and early adulthood from expressing emotion, it causes many of us to remain steadfast in our refusal to express regret when we see someone in pain from our actions.

When I was writing this piece, I was reminded of one of my favorite Gloria Steinem quotes, “The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn.”

So for many of us, it’s first about unlearning how to flicker those gaslights and learning how to acknowledge and understand the feelings, opinions, and positions of the women in our lives.

But isn’t the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that women’s opinions don’t hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isn’t quite as legitimate?

Why is it when a man gets angry it's taken that there is a 'real' reason and that when a women is angry she is over reacting?

Das Kitty

It's not just men who are guilty of it, I've had women do it to me. Notably my former boss. I was already depressed, but her constant picking at my 'inadequacies' sent me spiralling. It was amazing the difference after therapy when I could walk into her office and be direct with her and tell her I disagreed with what she was saying. She never did it again after that.

It was (and is) a major tool of my Dad's, he put his horrendous behaviour back on me everytime.

Kooli

Fabulous article, and I LOVE the idea of having a new word for that, because it's such a powerful, insidious tool, but sometimes it can be hard to say for sure what's just happened (apart from knowing that you've just been silenced).

I dunno if you should change the title of the thread because a lot of people might miss it.

Sonics2k

I would say that women can be just as bad at doing this if I'm completely honest.

I have an ex in particular who frequently said such things to me, and honestly made the depression I had far far worse.
A close friend of mines wife (soon to be ex thankfully) frequently makes comments about his weight, that he's going bald and has even commented on the size of his penis at public gatherings, in front of all our friends. And should he even dare to respond in a similar fashion she'd kick him out of the house.

I would say it's more a power play used by people to feel dominant others in all kinda of relationships, both romantic and professional.

Kooli

But gaslighting isn't about the picking at inadequacies or being critical.

Gaslighting is when a person is being rude, inconsiderate, critical, disrespectful or nasty and, once called on it, they dismiss or ridicule the person's reaction by calling them crazy, irrational, hysterical, dramatic, overreacting, can't take a joke etc.

(look up the current UNI LAD controversy to see gaslighting on a gigantic scale!)

Neyite

I think my ex was a master of "Gaslighting".

It was an emotionally and sometimes physically abusive relationship. I seemed to always the one who "couldnt take a joke" and had "no sense of humour" when being called names, being derided, ridiculed, humiliated and manipulated when he was "only messing"

On the odd occasion I did manage to be indisputably right (when he took it too far, or when someone else pulled him on his manner of speaking to me) he blamed the language barrier. :rolleyes: I found myself nodding to most paragraphs in that article.

I didnt have a term for it until now, but I can recognise it a mile off since that relationship.

BarackPyjama

First of all, gaslighting isn't specific to either gender. Both are equally guilty of it. I know this is the Ladies Lounge but it's probably worth pointing that out for the sake of clarity.

Gaslighting, or ambient abuse, is often symptomatic of somebody with a severe personality disorder. It's incredibly dangerous and every young person should be educated about it, along with other forms of psychological and emotional abuse and abusive personality types.

As well as shunning responsibilities and emotional manipulation, gaslighting can take even more sinister forms. Hiding things around the house, for example, to get the victim to start questioning their memory and their own sense of reality. Very, very dangerous.

The above article saying that this behaviour is an attack on women perpetrated by men isn't just offensive but also very misleading. Speaking as someone who was in a very abusive relationship with a very abusive woman. However that doesn't matter. What matters is that everyone should understand the nature of gaslighting, projective identification and other forms of non-violent abuse and make sure they recognise it should they ever end up in a relationship with one of these psychologically deranged individuals.

ihsb

I have found something that works. Every time the bf says "Relax" I think about it. If I am actually over-reacting then I can drop it. If in fact I am annoyed or upset about something and the "relax" comment is him belittling those feelings then I give him <mod snip>. He doesn't say it too often now!

Obviously it can run a lot deeper than this and it can turn into actual bullying. But this works for the little irritating comments.

Ickle Magoo

ihsb, I'm not sure whether you are being serious or not - I'm hoping not but just on the off chance...advocating violence is not permitted in this forum, please don't promote such methods again.

Many thanks

Kooli

BarackPyjama wrote: »

The above article saying that this behaviour is an attack on women perpetrated by men isn't just offensive but also very misleading. Speaking as someone who was in a very abusive relationship with a very abusive woman. However that doesn't matter. What matters is that everyone should understand the nature of gaslighting, projective identification and other forms of non-violent abuse and make sure they recognise it should they ever end up in a relationship with one of these psychologically deranged individuals.

I would hazard a guess that in partner relationships where emotional abuse is present, it happens to both genders.

But in general day to day encounters between colleagues, acquaintances and friends, I think it by far more likely to be perpetrated by men against women. That's firstly because it's about power play, and secondly because it relies on (and perpetuates) the stereotype of women as irrational, hysterical and over-emotional. That's a stereotype that doesn't apply to men, so the "relax, it's just 'banter', you're overreacting" response simply wouldn't have the same effect on men (except in the case of an emotionally abusive relationship)

LegacyUser

Kooli wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that in partner relationships where emotional abuse is present, it happens to both genders.

But in general day to day encounters between colleagues, acquaintances and friends, I think it by far more likely to be perpetrated by men against women. That's firstly because it's about power play, and secondly because it relies on (and perpetuates) the stereotype of women as irrational, hysterical and over-emotional. That's a stereotype that doesn't apply to men, so the "relax, it's just 'banter', you're overreacting" response simply wouldn't have the same effect on men (except in the case of an emotionally abusive relationship)

I'd disagree. As I've experienced it, it's been the percieved stronger, more willful, abusive characters acting against the percieved weaker ones, irrespective of the sex. My boss liked to tell me that I was overly sensitive (when he was breaking he rules by smoking in our office!!!).

Victor

Interesting, that the article was posted without the headline and I started reading it as if it was written by a woman.

I think it does a disservice to everyone, bullies and victims can come from any group and while some bullies concentrate on certain groups (employees, female employees, females, people with brown eyes ...) and use certain methods, the precedent is there and they will (try to) bully anyone they want.

Dudess

I'd just put that in the "manipulative, conniving, bullying, emotionally unstable/immature, projecting and cowardly" category, which neither gender has a monopoly on.

That said, the "hysterical, irrational" stuff does get thrown at women more. The author gives an example of a woman saying women are crazy, and I've seen that quite a bit.

johnr1

Dudess wrote: »

I'd just put that in the "manipulative, conniving, bullying, emotionally unstable/immature, projecting and cowardly" category, which neither gender has a monopoly on.

That said, the "hysterical, irrational" stuff does get thrown at women more. The author gives an example of a woman saying women are crazy, and I've seen that quite a bit.

Absolutely agree, it's everywhere around us, every day, and nine times out of ten it's women that it's directed at.

However, as someone who's been on the wrong end of this myself, no, it's not exclusively women who get it. Horrible experience - to have your opinions and feelings devalued like this. Eventually you begin to question yourself, and it's only with hindsight that I personally saw what had happened.
I suppose it says a lot that I was shocked by having this happen to me, - if I were a woman, it would'nt be so surprising.

B*stards of either gender are just that.

.

Kooli

Dudess wrote: »

That said, the "hysterical, irrational" stuff does get thrown at women more. The author gives an example of a woman saying women are crazy, and I've seen that quite a bit.

No the example was of a woman, upon hearing he writes about women, assuming HE is writing about how women are crazy.

Morag

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, that the article was posted without the headline and I started reading it as if it was written by a woman.

How did you do that?
Read something as if it was written by a woman or indeed a man?

i did as well
it's because it starts off with "does this sound familiar?" which is a style people often use when they're saying they relate to something and maybe have experienced it themselves
and it doesn't give it away with "women often hear these things"

Morag

bluewolf wrote: »

i did as well
it's because it starts off with "does this sound familiar?" which is a style people often use when they're saying they relate to something and maybe have experienced it themselves
and it doesn't give it away with "women often hear these things"

Well while the author may not have personally experienced it they have seen it enough to know it and spoken to enough women to be able to write about it.
I would hate to think that some people would take the article more seriously or consider it more valid if they thought a man wrote it.

Sharrow

Sharrow wrote: »

Well while the author may not have personally experienced it they have seen it enough to know it and spoken to enough women to be able to write about it.
I would hate to think that some people would take the article more seriously or consider it more valid if they thought a man wrote it.

well you asked how do you read something as if x/y wrote it - that's how

i expected after the first few lines to be reading an article where someone said "i've been through this", but i didn't, and it didn't take a jot away from the points at all

JuliusCaesar

bluewolf wrote: »

i did as well
it's because it starts off with "does this sound familiar?" which is a style people often use when they're saying they relate to something and maybe have experienced it themselves
and it doesn't give it away with "women often hear these things"

Me too. Because it's written Cosmo style, with "my friend" anecdotes.

Gaslighting? Used by mental health professionals? Nope. Never heard it until this very thread.


But he/she has got you all using the phrase!

irishh_bob

BarackPyjama wrote: »

First of all, gaslighting isn't specific to either gender. Both are equally guilty of it. I know this is the Ladies Lounge but it's probably worth pointing that out for the sake of clarity.

Gaslighting, or ambient abuse, is often symptomatic of somebody with a severe personality disorder. It's incredibly dangerous and every young person should be educated about it, along with other forms of psychological and emotional abuse and abusive personality types.

As well as shunning responsibilities and emotional manipulation, gaslighting can take even more sinister forms. Hiding things around the house, for example, to get the victim to start questioning their memory and their own sense of reality. Very, very dangerous.

The above article saying that this behaviour is an attack on women perpetrated by men isn't just offensive but also very misleading. Speaking as someone who was in a very abusive relationship with a very abusive woman. However that doesn't matter. What matters is that everyone should understand the nature of gaslighting, projective identification and other forms of non-violent abuse and make sure they recognise it should they ever end up in a relationship with one of these psychologically deranged individuals.

had a supervisor in middle managment who had that personality type many years ago , viscious verbal abuse , projection etc , she completley destroyed my life and left me psychologically traumatised indefinatley

BarackPyjama

irishh_bob wrote: »

had a supervisor in middle managment who had that personality type many years ago , viscious verbal abuse , projection etc , she completley destroyed my life and left me psychologically traumatised indefinatley

Sorry to hear that. Psychological abuse is as damaging, in fact in many cases far more so, than physical abuse and yet it isn't really discussed or understood enough. Everyone should learn about it and how to recognise it at a young age.

irishh_bob

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Sorry to hear that. Psychological abuse is as damaging, in fact in many cases far more so, than physical abuse and yet it isn't really discussed or understood enough. Everyone should learn about it and how to recognise it at a young age.

the victim often doesnt realise how its effecting them untill a while after , post traumatic stress disorder , its difficult to spot it unless you,ve never experienced it , you often have to be a victim to become wise to such toxic individuals

the goal of psychological abusers is often to brainwash thier target into buying into thier false appraisals , thus making the victim believe that their is something wrong with them which needs fixing , its ironic , i found myself attending psychiatricsts for problems which at first i thougt i had but which i eventually discovered my abuser was guilty of , an abuser who accuses their target of having an attitude problem for example is often themselves guilty of having an attitude problem , projection

BarackPyjama

irishh_bob wrote: »

the victim often doesnt realise how its effecting them untill a while after , post traumatic stress disorder , its difficult to spot it unless you,ve never experienced it , you often have to be a victim to become wise to such toxic individuals

the goal of psychological abusers is often to brainwash thier target into buying into thier false appraisals , thus making the victim believe that their is something wrong with them which needs fixing , its ironic , i found myself attending psychiatricsts for problems which at first i thougt i had but which i eventually discovered my abuser was guilty of , an abuser who accuses their target of having an attitude problem for example is often themselves guilty of having an attitude problem , projection

Exactly. Projection/projective identification and gaslighting often go hand-in-hand in an abusive relationship. As you say, you don't realise what's happening at the time but the sheer level of damage done and the trauma that you experience after - well I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. There are some really f*cked up people out there.

Dudess

Been there myself - the damage is unreal. Your confidence and self respect take some hammering.
I'm getting there though - and am determined I'll be more confident than ever!

irishh_bob

Dudess wrote: »

Been there myself - the damage is unreal. Your confidence and self respect take some hammering.
I'm getting there though - and am determined I'll be more confident than ever!

you wont be as confident as ever , once your knocked down , you might get back up but your natural confidence is gone , everything takes a much bigger effort

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

you wont be as confident as ever , once your knocked down , you might get back up but your natural confidence is gone , everything takes a much bigger effort

well not with that fcukin attitude

irishh_bob

bluewolf wrote: »

well not with that fcukin attitude

its not an attitude , its an opinion borne out of personal experience , once bitten twice shy , your more suspicious , cynical , less happy go lucky , untrusting after an experience like the one in question , it changes you so you cant be the same as ever no matter how good of a fist you make

Novella

irishh_bob wrote: »

its not an attitude , its an opinion borne out of personal experience , once bitten twice shy , your more suspicious , cynical , less happy go lucky , untrusting after an experience like the one in question , it changes you so you cant be the same as ever no matter how good of a fist you make

Yeah, that's your opinion, that might be how it is for you. It doesn't mean that's how it's gonna be for Dudess, or for anyone else for that matter. Changes can be positive. Something can happen to dent your confidence and then you get through it and become more confident because you now have the knowledge that you can overcome obstacles etc.

BarackPyjama

irishh_bob wrote: »

its not an attitude , its an opinion borne out of personal experience , once bitten twice shy , your more suspicious , cynical , less happy go lucky , untrusting after an experience like the one in question , it changes you so you cant be the same as ever no matter how good of a fist you make

I'm speaking from experience when I tell you that you're completely wrong.

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

Yeah, that's your opinion, that might be how it is for you. It doesn't mean that's how it's gonna be for Dudess, or for anyone else for that matter. Changes can be positive. Something can happen to dent your confidence and then you get through it and become more confident because you now have the knowledge that you can overcome obstacles etc.

if something knocks the stuffing out of you , how can you claim to have overcome it , , if something rocks you to your core psychologically , it has changed you , you havent bested it , it has bested you , some people might live on and become tougher and warrior like but that is something different , becoming hardened due to tough experiences is not a possitive thing in everyones opinion , few if any would choose not to have avoided what forced them to change , especially if they didnt need to change in the first place and were fine the way there were , i guess i dont subscribe to the cliche that whatever doesnt kill you , will only made you stronger , i perfer heath ledgers line from batman , what doesnt kill you can only make you stranger

irishh_bob

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I'm speaking from experience when I tell you that you're completely wrong.

your truth and reality are not nessceserily mine

BarackPyjama

irishh_bob wrote: »

if something knocks the stuffing out of you , how can you claim to have overcome it , , if something rocks you to your core psychologically , it has changed you , you havent bested it , it has bested you , some people might live on and become tougher and warrior like but that is something different , becoming hardened due to tough experiences is not a possitive thing in everyones opinion , few if any would choose not to have avoided what forced them to change , i guess i dont subscribe to the cliche that whatever doesnt kill you , will only made you stronger , i perfer heath ledgers line from batman , what doesnt kill you can only make you stranger

Maybe in your experience. My experience, I grew stronger and wiser from it while continuing to be the same good person I was before. Psychological abuse has a different effect on different people. Some people literally go insane. Others fight it, finally walking away from it and become stronger for the experience.

BarackPyjama

irishh_bob wrote: »

your truth and reality are not nessceserily mine

True. If you see my last point above. Some people grow stronger, others become twisted, bitter and unstable. Everyone is affected by it differently I suppose.

G86

you wont be as confident as ever , once your knocked down , you might get back up but your natural confidence is gone , everything takes a much bigger effort

Just because you can't see it right now doesn't mean it isn't possible. I know that you don't mean to knock anyone else down with that statement, and I know you're just stuck in a mindset that you can't see yourself ever getting your confidence back; but listen to me when I say that you will. It might not be tomorrow, or next week, or next month - but you will, and it's so so important that you believe that - so that eventually you'll believe in yourself again. Darkness is so much easier to bear when you make yourself believe that someday the light will come back; just like every problem is easier to deal with once you can see a way of working towards a solution. I'm not religious, but there's a lot to be said about faith - both in yourself and the people around you.

irishh_bob

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Maybe in your experience. My experience, I grew stronger and wiser from it while continuing to be the same good person I was before. Psychological abuse has a different effect on different people. Some people literally go insane. Others fight it, finally walking away from it and become stronger for the experience.

i had psychological abuse from one person growing up , i went from the frying pan into the fire , i guess like most people , i had my breaking point

irishh_bob

BarackPyjama wrote: »

True. If you see my last point above. Some people grow stronger, others become twisted, bitter and unstable. Everyone is affected by it differently I suppose.

well if thier is a high chance that some people collapse , i think its cannot be called a possitve thing , even if some do thrive off the back of such turmoil

BarackPyjama

irishh_bob wrote: »

i had psychological abuse from one person growing up , i went from the frying pan into the fire , i guess like most people , i had my breaking point

Sorry to hear that. I think Dudess and I are speaking from the point of view of being in a temporary relationship with an abusive person so probably a different scenario from yours.

Kimia

Definitely have experienced it. I absolutely hate hate hate when someone does it - when they say something mean and then follow it with 'You're so sensitive'. :mad:

Since when did it become their job to decide if I'm so anything??

irishh_bob

G86 wrote: »

Just because you can't see it right now doesn't mean it isn't possible. I know that you don't mean to knock anyone else down with that statement, and I know you're just stuck in a mindset that you can't see yourself ever getting your confidence back; but listen to me when I say that you will. It might not be tomorrow, or next week, or next month - but you will, and it's so so important that you believe that - so that eventually you'll believe in yourself again. Darkness is so much easier to bear when you make yourself believe that someday the light will come back; just like every problem is easier to deal with once you can see a way of working towards a solution. I'm not religious, but there's a lot to be said about faith - both in yourself and the people around you.

well its been more than thirteen years now and besides , i made poor self destructive descisions off the back off a breakdown which was inflicted by someone else , i compromised my own integrity and done things that im ashamed of , this would not have happened had someone not malisciously persuaded me that i was a rotten individual , stuff like that cannot simply be forgotten so a return to the way things were is impossible

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

your truth and reality are not nessceserily mine

which means you have no place telling someone else they'll never be as confident again just because it happened to you

irishh_bob

Kimia wrote: »

Definitely have experienced it. I absolutely hate hate hate when someone does it - when they say something mean and then follow it with 'You're so sensitive'. :mad:

Since when did it become their job to decide if I'm so anything??

have you ever had someone ask you the following

give me one reason why i shouldnt treat you like **** ?

Storminateacup

Generally when it's said to me it's because I'm having a heart attack over something ridiculous. I don't take it to mean that he's belittling my feelings, because if that does happen - that he mocks me if I'm genuinely upset, I will tell him I found it hurtful or whatever and he'll talk to me about the real reason I'm mad and not because he left his socks on in bed.

I do it to him too, I'll ask him if he's on his man period when he's clearly over reacting. It doesn't mean for a second I'm belittling his feelings, it just means "don't direct anger at me when it's not my fault"

Kimia

irishh_bob wrote: »

have you ever had someone ask you the following

give me one reason why i shouldnt treat you like **** ?

No.

irishh_bob

bluewolf wrote: »

which means you have no place telling someone else they'll never be as confident again just because it happened to you

i used the word YOU in the plural , i.e , i told the postman you cant trust those politicans

you cant expect to be the same after a traumatic experience , im tougher in certain ways than i used to be but am i happier , no , even everything is going fine , too many permanent scars

irishh_bob

Kimia wrote: »

No.

that was the tone of verbal abuse i had to deal with while working overseas as a twenty year old over a decade ago , , its hard to know how to deal with it or more to the point , how to take possitives from it like some seem to claim exist , especially when such abuse causes you to doubt yourself at every level , hard to rebuild when you were not broken in the first place , always seems like the reconstruction is not up to the same standard as the original model and as such will only ever be second best

Das Kitty

irishh_bob wrote: »

i had psychological abuse from one person growing up , i went from the frying pan into the fire , i guess like most people , i had my breaking point

So did I, and yes I was very very low for a terribly long time, but now I am actually more confident and happier than I have ever been in my life.

There is light at the end of the tunnel but it takes a lot of hard work for being happy to come naturally. When it does though, oh my, it's the most wonderful feeling in creation.

PS, sorry you're still suffering dude.

irishh_bob

Das Kitty wrote: »

So did I, and yes I was very very low for a terribly long time, but now I am actually more confident and happier than I have ever been in my life.

There is light at the end of the tunnel but it takes a lot of hard work for being happy to come naturally. When it does though, oh my, it's the most wonderful feeling in creation.

PS, sorry you're still suffering dude.

i meant i had it growing up , i stayed strong and went overseas and then got it from someone else , you can only tollerate so many unlucky breaks

Das Kitty

irishh_bob wrote: »

i meant i had it growing up , i stayed strong and went overseas and then got it from someone else , you can only tollerate so many unlucky breaks

I meant the same, without the overseas bit.

Tigger99

irishh_bob wrote: »

have you ever had someone ask you the following

give me one reason why i shouldnt treat you like **** ?

No, and its horrific that you went through such suffering, but you are being pretty dismissive about other peoples experiences, competitive almost. There's no need for it.

Storminateacup wrote: »

Generally when it's said to me it's because I'm having a heart attack over svomething ridiculous. I don't take it to mean that he's belittling my feelings, because if that does happen - that he mocks me if I'm genuinely upset, I will tell him I found it hurtful or whatever and he'll talk to me about the real reason I'm mad and not because he left his socks on in bed.

I do it to him too, I'll ask him if he's on his man period when he's clearly over reacting. It doesn't mean for a second I'm belittling his feelings, it just means "don't direct anger at me when it's not my fault"

Ok that's fine you both see think that you (or him even) are overreacting. But what about if you have a genuine concern and he says oh you are sooo sensitive, oh i was only joking (when he made you feel like sh I t) or that you were overreacting to something spiteful that he did? Now, im not saying he would, he sounds like a lovely fella, but its a bit more than the scenario you. are suggesting that you are overreacting, when you yourself think you are overreacting.

Storminateacup

Tigger99 wrote: »

that's fine you both see think that you (or him even) are overreacting. But what about if you have a genuine concern and he says oh you are sooo sensitive, oh i was only joking (when he made you feel like sh I t) or that you were overreacting to something spiteful that he did? Now, im not saying he would, he sounds like a lovely fella, but its a bit more than the scenario you. are suggesting that you are overreacting, when you yourself think you are overreacting.

if He called me fat (for example) knowing how sensitive I was about my weight, I'd hit the roof, and he could call me irrational all he liked but that'd be too bad because he was out of line...
I personally couldn't be with someone who would passively aggressively bully me.

Sometimes I am genuinely down or upset, and he'll rib me about over reacting, but he's generally wear me down to tell him what's wrong so while he might come across as an insensitive jerk, he does it so as I'll talk about the real reason I'm mad.

Does that make sense or did it make more sense in my head