Missing fishermen and the searches

Ray Palmer

While I get people are at the end of this it always seems strange people insist on getting the bodies back. If you are a fisherman do you really want to risk other peoples' live to get your body back? I just reckon I would say let it be with knowledge the person died at sea.

There has been at least one death as a result of searching for the body of a fisherman lost at sea.

It isn't like people reckon the person is alive and search in hope to find them alive it is litterally about having a body to bury

pacquiao

Have you any brothers or sisters?

Ray Palmer

pacquiao wrote: »

Have you any brothers or sisters?

Yes I have family. Do I want to risk someboy else's life to recover their body NO!

Balmed Out

Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

smash

Without a body, and certainly without a search life assurance will not be paid out.

There are tracking devices and man overboard systems out there but nobody buys them.

gcgirl

A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years

Ray Palmer

smash wrote: »

Without a body, and certainly without a search life assurance will not be paid out.

There are tracking devices and man overboard systems out there but nobody buys them.

That is a very valid point.

I think with that point in mind they should get trackers considering it is so risky for the people who are helping their families.

Wattle

The people doing the searching are the rescue services who would be better prepared than ordinary vessels. Its far less likely that they'd lose someone and they do everything humanly possible to bring bodies back to loved one's.

stovelid

The mania for public cost effectiveness in AH suddenly stoops even lower.

seantorious

You should check the scuba forum http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056532286

They have a thread about how dangerous search and rescue is and how irresponsible using the media to request people to do it is.

pacquiao wrote: »

Have you any brothers or sisters?

What sort of question is that. Sure you may love your family, but putting your life in danger to "rescue" a corpse isn't on.

lastlaugh

Balmed Out wrote: »

Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

Something like that should be mandatory.

Seachmall

Nobody is being forced to participate in the search and rescue and if you're going to be selfish soon after the death of a loved one seems an appropriate time to do so.

Dudess

Many of the divers are volunteers.

You can "reckon" all you like but you haven't a clue how you'd feel about such search operations unless one of your loved ones perished at sea.

CardBordWindow

You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.

CJhaughey

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That is a very valid point.

I think with that point in mind they should get trackers considering it is so risky for the people who are helping their families.

How exactly is this technology fixed to the body?
Wristwatches can be torn off in rough seas or if the body ends up on rocks.
Likewise neck mounted transponders.
The crew of the vessel were likely in bunk, are they supposed to wear these all the time even in bed?
It would be something like the ones that criminals wear...
The last body recovered was buried in the sediment, how does a transponder work underground?

Wow...just wow

Seachmall

CJhaughey wrote: »

How exactly is this technology fixed to the body?
Wristwatches can be torn off in rough seas or if the body ends up on rocks.
Likewise neck mounted transponders.
The crew of the vessel were likely in bunk, are they supposed to wear these all the time even in bed?
It would be something like the ones that criminals wear...
The last body recovered was buried in the sediment, how does a transponder work underground?

Many just have small battery life and will only record where you entered the water. Although according to Dragon's Den that's good enough to approximate where the person, or body, should be when Search and Rescue starts (within a reasonable amount of time).

Ray Palmer

CardBordWindow wrote: »

You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.

Well that would be you completely missing what I have said and misjudging everything about me.

Yes I have had people die that were very close to me, thinking of that putting somebody else in danger so I can have a body is actually extended empathy.

Wonder how you would feel if somebody somebody died trying to retrieve the body of one of your loved ones. Would it make you feel better or worse?

If I die somewhere I personally would rather not have somebody risk their life to retrieve my corpse.

If I was a fisherman I would feel the same and I wonder why they don't. The same way I signed a donor card, I would tell my family not to put people at risk to get my corpse.

gcgirl

Ray Palmer wrote: »

CardBordWindow wrote: »

You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.

Well that would be you completely missing what I have said and misjudging everything about me.

Yes I have had people die that were very close to me, thinking of that putting somebody else in danger so I can have a body is actually extended empathy.

Wonder how you would feel if somebody somebody died trying to retrieve the body of one of your loved ones. Would it make you feel better or worse?

If I die somewhere I personally would rather not have somebody risk their life to retrieve my corpse.

If I was a fisherman I would feel the same and I wonder why they don't. The same way I signed a donor card, I would tell my family not to put people at risk to get my corpse.

The volunteers are highly trained and the search is safely done

brandon_flowers

Balmed Out wrote: »

Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

I doubt you have ever been at sea or been close to a deep sea fishing boat - they do not use technology other than radio's. They don't wear life-jackets most of the time, they are hardly going to wear a huge transponder on their wrist.

I think the OP is heartless also.

Ray Palmer

gcgirl wrote: »

The volunteers are highly trained and the search is safely done

It is still full of risk and has resulted in death

sonners

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It is still full of risk and has resulted in death

Life is full of risk and has resulted in death.

Thankfully there are people out there willing to manage this risk to the best of their abilities with training and organisation. These people put their life on the line in an attempt to provide solace to a grieving family. I am very very thankful that they do.

rambutman

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I think the OP is heartless also.

I don't think he is...............its a reasonably valid point

and i have had a best friend drown, searched for him and been on the scene when they found him

Damn right the family need closure but if someone else dies was it worth it?

Ray Palmer

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I think the OP is heartless also.

Becasue I think other people shouldn't suffer I am heartless? Well you can call me heartless for that

Capt'n Midnight

gcgirl wrote: »

A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Darwin_disappearance_case

gbee

Balmed Out wrote: »

Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

Man Overboard devices are small and pinned to clothing or harnesses.

Interesting fact: capsizing of the maxi yacht Rambler 100 with 21 crew on board south of the Fastnet Rock were rescued quickly because a watching satellite picked up a very weak signal and Valentia Coast Guard launched a rescue probe.

The irony is that the eperp on the yacht's mast did not activate a distress signal until two weeks after the capsizing. But one crewman wearing a personal Man-Overboard, a small short range device designed to find victims quickly from the yacht itself was the only distress signal activated.

At the time the crew were in the water, they were unaware that the main emergency and very powerful signal had not automatically activated. [Scary].

tricky D

Closure is obviously a factor here.

However, there's something intangible that the sea does to many people who live near and work it. It can cut a deep groove into you, especially around working ports. Before modern communications, the lifeboats around here used to send up maroons* at any time of day or night. That would make people stop to reflect on mortality, the dangerous and cruel sea and such notions, and there would be a sort of community effect also, eg. talking the morning in the shops/on the train. This effect still kicks in when seeing the RNLI or ICG doing shouts or search patterns. You hope the body will be found, it just feels important even though hope is gone in reality.

There's also a similar thing in the military about recovering bodies.

* A maroon is a type of rocket which makes a loud banging report (noise) and a bright flash. It is used as an alarm or warning, for example the British Royal National Lifeboat Institution uses these rockets to call the crew when the lifeboat needs to be launched.

WindSock

Same could be said to the people whos loved ones died in 9/11, they had pics all over the place when it could be assumed they were dead and not runaways.

Do you think it was a waste of money getting DNA tests on whatever charred remains were found in the rubble?

mconigol

stovelid wrote: »

The mania for public cost effectiveness in AH suddenly stoops even lower.

Dudess wrote: »

Many of the divers are volunteers.

You can "reckon" all you like but you haven't a clue how you'd feel about such search operations unless one of your loved ones perished at sea.

CardBordWindow wrote: »

You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.

rambutman wrote: »

I don't think he is...............its a reasonably valid point

and i have had a best friend drown, searched for him and been on the scene when they found him

Damn right the family need closure but if someone else dies was it worth it?

As somebody who has worked offshore I would not want an extended "recovery" operation if I was lost at sea. "Search and Rescue", yes, "Recovery" no. Putting other peoples lives at risk is totally unwarranted in my opinion and I personally would not want it.

I think people criticize the OP are being too harsh and he has a very valid point.

pickarooney

gcgirl wrote: »

A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years

There's no basis to this claim.

CJhaughey

gbee wrote: »

The irony is that the eperp on the yacht's mast did not activate a distress signal until two weeks after the capsizing. But one crewman wearing a personal Man-Overboard, a small short range device designed to find victims quickly from the yacht itself was the only distress signal activated.

At the time the crew were in the water, they were unaware that the main emergency and very powerful signal had not automatically activated. [Scary].

There is not much difference between a PLB and an EPIRB apart from length of transmission time.
Old Personal locator beacons used to transmit on 121.5mhz which was a fairly localized signal that planes could use to home in on.
The new ones transmit a GPS position as well as the 406mhz and 121.5mhz which allows a pretty accurate position.
BUT the PLB has to stay with you, which sounds easy but on a really poor night when there is mountainous breaking seas on rocky coasts it could be easier said than done.
All we can do is hope that these people get some closure, locals as well as the families of the fishermen.

stovelid

mconigol wrote: »

I would not want an extended "recovery" operation if I was lost at sea. "Search and Rescue", yes, "Recovery" no. Putting other peoples lives at risk is totally unwarranted in my opinion and I personally would not want it.
.

The dead person doesn't generally have a say in these matters, rather the family of the dead person.

MagicMarker

WindSock wrote: »

Same could be said to the people whos loved ones died in 9/11, they had pics all over the place when it could be assumed they were dead and not runaways.

Do you think it was a waste of money getting DNA tests on whatever charred remains were found in the rubble?

Not that I agree with the OP or anything but this is clearly not the same thing.

johnr1

I understand the point being made by the OP, and also by mconigol. At least the latter understands what he/she's talking about.

However the original post takes no account of different circumstances and weather conditions.

I have participated in the search for a body in a broadly similar set of conditions to the recent one in Union Hall, and tbh until you see the faces of the family members on a daily basis for a couple of weeks, you can't fully understand what having a body means to them. It's closure.

Our navy, - who coordinate these operations are excellent at determining when it's safe to dive, how long to search for, what form the search should take, and over what area.

No need to second guess them OP, they know more than you do, more than most of us here, and they've done it before many times.

In the search I was involved in, the BOYNE RESCUE team, who happened to be locally on a training course found the body, after giving up two weeks approximately of their time - for nothing.
It meant everything to the family, and it fostered a new focus on water safety among us boaters and recreationional users of the sea in our area.

They should be commended.


.

mconigol

stovelid wrote: »

The dead person doesn't generally have a say in these matters, rather the family of the dead person.

Never said they do. I was willing to accept the risks involved with the job and I made my opinion known to my family...whether that would affect any decisions they may have made would have been totally out of my control.

trad

Here's an actual case of a trawler sinking and a diver being ask by the family to dive the wreck despite advice not to.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/risingsun.html?rss

The diver's body was never recovered but the one they went looking for was later.

ItsAWindUp

Of course the bodies should be recovered

dan719

Two points

The MOB Guardian system costs less than 27 pence per day. Most fishing vessels in the UK have these personal epirb devices. So all the posters on this thread should ask the Irish government why crews on boats such as the tit bonamme are forbidden from doing so.

To the poster who claimed Billy O'Connor was in some way pressurised to dive on the Rising Sun wreck- you are full of sh*t. He knew the persons involved intimately and made clear his decision before exclusion zone was lifted.

P.s If Im ever lost at sea (touch wood) I wouldnt wish anyone to risk their lives to recover my body. But volounteers such as those down in Union Hall make their own decisions and should be praised for their bravery.

Let me ask the OP this? If two little children were lost at sea after their dinghy was caught in a rip current would you feel the same about a costly and dangerous recovery operation?

mconigol

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Of course the bodies should be recovered

Why?

Nothingbetter2d

the dolphins took revenge and caught the fishermen in their nets. Now John West is actually in the can.

johnr1

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

the dolphins took revenge and caught the fishermen in their nets. Now John West is actually in the can.

You sick fcuker.

ItsAWindUp

mconigol wrote: »

Why?

If you had a family member die at see would you not like the body recovered?

twowheelsonly

trad wrote: »

Here's an actual case of a trawler sinking and a diver being ask by the family to dive the wreck despite advice not to.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/risingsun.html?rss

The diver's body was never recovered but the one they went looking for was later.

Thought it was the other way around????

sonners

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Thought it was the other way around????

yep, divers body was found, skipper was never found.

twowheelsonly

I've taken part in literally dozens of these searches, some successful, some not and have recovered my own share of bodies. The relief and gratitude of these victims families has to be experienced to be appreciated. Likewise the desolation of those whose loved ones bodies are never recovered.
It's very very hard, when it affects yourself in particular, to just say that "Billy fell into the water... let's just forget about him.. " Families don't do that. It's easy to do and say when you're detached from the whole thing but not so when you're close to it.

I was in Union Hall last weekend and every diver that I came across was experienced and confident. I would have the utmost trust if I was diving with any of them. BTW, divers came from Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin, Cork, Killarney and Limerick as well as a number of locals. Conditions were pretty much ideal and the risk factor was minimal. Any divers worth their salt does a risk assessment on every dive in any case and only the foolish (and usually least experienced) would go ahead if the conditions were unsuitable.
1 diver has died here in recent memory on a recovery operation which is a tiny percentage given the thousands of hours that have gone into recovery operations before and since. 1 is 1 too many but the circumstances seem unusual to me in that they were almost finished their dive when he appeared to disappear which in itself is a highly unusual thing to happen. Only for the fact that this happened on a fairly high profile recovery operation it would have slipped under most peoples radar.

If my gang weren't diving in Union Hall last week they would have been on a regular dive somewhere else in much the same conditions in any case so what's the difference? Most of these search and recovery dives take place in the same conditions that regular diving does and to the experienced diver offers no real extra challenge/threat.

Ray Palmer

OP here

What people seem to misunderstand is not simply about people wanting the body. I have a donor card and explained why my body doesn't matter to me when I am dead. Surely some fishermen feel the same can they not explain it to their families. Should more of the fishermen being thinking this way and some of families too.

I am sure people are very brave and people are very grateful but that doesn't mean that it is the best thing to do. I could very bravely run into a burining building and save somebody's life but it doesn't mean it is a good idea or will work each time.

I have made it very clear I would feel the same for my own family going missing. So for everybody who thinks I would feel differently you are simply wrong. I am not talking about searches for living people just obvious seraches for bodies. "recoveries"

dan719

Ray Palmer wrote: »

OP here

What people seem to misunderstand is not simply about people wanting the body. I have a donor card and explained why my body doesn't matter to me when I am dead. Surely some fishermen feel the same can they not explain it to their families. Should more of the fishermen being thinking this way and some of families too.

I am sure people are very brave and people are very grateful but that doesn't mean that it is the best thing to do. I could very bravely run into a burining building and save somebody's life but it doesn't mean it is a good idea or will work each time.

I have made it very clear I would feel the same for my own family going missing. So for everybody who thinks I would feel differently you are simply wrong. I am not talking about searches for living people just obvious seraches for bodies. "recoveries"

I am a fisherman and I do feel the same way. But most families dont. And like a funeral being for the living, the recovery is for the family too. I knew two of the men who were lost on the tit bonamme, and I would be delighted for Michael Hayes' family to have a body to bury. And the fact over fifty divers took part last weekend suggests Im not the only one.

May I ask have you any connection to the sea or the fishing industry?

WindSock

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not that I agree with the OP or anything but this is clearly not the same thing.

Its not risking lives to recover bodies, but the op asks if it is worth it when they are assumed to be dead. The 1000's of missing pics shows how desperately families want something of their loved ones.

mconigol

WindSock wrote: »

Its not risking lives to recover bodies, but the op asks if it is worth it when they are assumed to be dead. The 1000's of missing pics shows how desperately families want something of their loved ones.

Of course people's lives are at risk to recover bodies.

Families may want something of their loved ones but the question the OP is asking is the risk associated with this acceptable. Personally I don't think it is but I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me.

The divers/searchers may insist that they want to do it and are experienced etc...but that does not negate the fact that these recovery operations are inherently risky like all activities at sea.

twowheelsonly

mconigol wrote: »

Of course people's lives are at risk to recover bodies.

Families may want something of their loved ones but the question the OP is asking is the risk associated with this acceptable. Personally I don't think it is but I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me.

The divers/searchers may insist that they want to do it and are experienced etc...but that does not negate the fact that these recovery operations are inherently risky like all activities at sea.

The thing is, 99.99999% of the time the risk is actually fairly negligible to somebody that is qualified, experienced, familiar with the scenario and willing to risk assess every dive.

Compare it with somebody that goes running every day. They don't think twice about it most of the time, just get out and run. Safe as it might be, at times it carries risk, be it traffic, dogs, bad roads, lighting or whatever. However the runner will assess all these things and will adapt his running or route to accommodate these things, usually without even thinking about it. If however the ground is covered with snow or hard ice he will (in nearly all cases - there's always one!!) scrap his plans to go running.

Diving is pretty much the same. It's almost second nature to most very experienced divers and they will plan and act accordingly and sensibly. Just because an area was hazardous when an accident/incident occurred doesn't mean that it's like that every day.

With regard to Union Hall at the moment, in the current conditions I would regard the drive down there potentially more hazardous than the dive when you get there - and I'll treat them both with the respect they deserve.

323

tricky D wrote: »

Closure is obviously a factor here.

However, there's something intangible that the sea does to many people who live near and work it. It can cut a deep groove into you, especially around working ports. ......................

There's also a similar thing in the military about recovering bodies.

Pretty much sums it up, my dad used to call salt water a disease.

Would also like to ask if the OP has or ever had any connection to the sea or the fishing industry?