Missing fishermen and the searches

stovelid · 02-02-2012 02:06PM

mconigol wrote: »

I would not want an extended "recovery" operation if I was lost at sea. "Search and Rescue", yes, "Recovery" no. Putting other peoples lives at risk is totally unwarranted in my opinion and I personally would not want it.
.

The dead person doesn't generally have a say in these matters, rather the family of the dead person.

MagicMarker · 02-02-2012 02:09PM

WindSock wrote: »

Same could be said to the people whos loved ones died in 9/11, they had pics all over the place when it could be assumed they were dead and not runaways.

Do you think it was a waste of money getting DNA tests on whatever charred remains were found in the rubble?

Not that I agree with the OP or anything but this is clearly not the same thing.

johnr1 · 02-02-2012 03:00PM

I understand the point being made by the OP, and also by mconigol. At least the latter understands what he/she's talking about.

However the original post takes no account of different circumstances and weather conditions.

I have participated in the search for a body in a broadly similar set of conditions to the recent one in Union Hall, and tbh until you see the faces of the family members on a daily basis for a couple of weeks, you can't fully understand what having a body means to them. It's closure.

Our navy, - who coordinate these operations are excellent at determining when it's safe to dive, how long to search for, what form the search should take, and over what area.

No need to second guess them OP, they know more than you do, more than most of us here, and they've done it before many times.

In the search I was involved in, the BOYNE RESCUE team, who happened to be locally on a training course found the body, after giving up two weeks approximately of their time - for nothing.
It meant everything to the family, and it fostered a new focus on water safety among us boaters and recreationional users of the sea in our area.

They should be commended.

.

mconigol · 02-02-2012 03:55PM

stovelid wrote: »

The dead person doesn't generally have a say in these matters, rather the family of the dead person.

Never said they do. I was willing to accept the risks involved with the job and I made my opinion known to my family...whether that would affect any decisions they may have made would have been totally out of my control.

trad · 02-02-2012 04:04PM

Here's an actual case of a trawler sinking and a diver being ask by the family to dive the wreck despite advice not to.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/risingsun.html?rss

The diver's body was never recovered but the one they went looking for was later.

ItsAWindUp · 02-02-2012 04:20PM

Of course the bodies should be recovered

dan719 · 02-02-2012 04:20PM

Two points

The MOB Guardian system costs less than 27 pence per day. Most fishing vessels in the UK have these personal epirb devices. So all the posters on this thread should ask the Irish government why crews on boats such as the tit bonamme are forbidden from doing so.

To the poster who claimed Billy O'Connor was in some way pressurised to dive on the Rising Sun wreck- you are full of sh*t. He knew the persons involved intimately and made clear his decision before exclusion zone was lifted.

P.s If Im ever lost at sea (touch wood) I wouldnt wish anyone to risk their lives to recover my body. But volounteers such as those down in Union Hall make their own decisions and should be praised for their bravery.

Let me ask the OP this? If two little children were lost at sea after their dinghy was caught in a rip current would you feel the same about a costly and dangerous recovery operation?

mconigol · 02-02-2012 04:25PM

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Of course the bodies should be recovered

Why?

Nothingbetter2d · 02-02-2012 04:28PM

the dolphins took revenge and caught the fishermen in their nets. Now John West is actually in the can.

johnr1 · 02-02-2012 05:04PM

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

the dolphins took revenge and caught the fishermen in their nets. Now John West is actually in the can.

You sick fcuker.

ItsAWindUp · 02-02-2012 05:09PM

mconigol wrote: »

Why?

If you had a family member die at see would you not like the body recovered?

twowheelsonly · 02-02-2012 05:21PM

trad wrote: »

Here's an actual case of a trawler sinking and a diver being ask by the family to dive the wreck despite advice not to.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0726/risingsun.html?rss

The diver's body was never recovered but the one they went looking for was later.

Thought it was the other way around????

sonners · 02-02-2012 05:29PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Thought it was the other way around????

yep, divers body was found, skipper was never found.

twowheelsonly · 02-02-2012 05:46PM

I've taken part in literally dozens of these searches, some successful, some not and have recovered my own share of bodies. The relief and gratitude of these victims families has to be experienced to be appreciated. Likewise the desolation of those whose loved ones bodies are never recovered.
It's very very hard, when it affects yourself in particular, to just say that "Billy fell into the water... let's just forget about him.. " Families don't do that. It's easy to do and say when you're detached from the whole thing but not so when you're close to it.

I was in Union Hall last weekend and every diver that I came across was experienced and confident. I would have the utmost trust if I was diving with any of them. BTW, divers came from Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin, Cork, Killarney and Limerick as well as a number of locals. Conditions were pretty much ideal and the risk factor was minimal. Any divers worth their salt does a risk assessment on every dive in any case and only the foolish (and usually least experienced) would go ahead if the conditions were unsuitable.
1 diver has died here in recent memory on a recovery operation which is a tiny percentage given the thousands of hours that have gone into recovery operations before and since. 1 is 1 too many but the circumstances seem unusual to me in that they were almost finished their dive when he appeared to disappear which in itself is a highly unusual thing to happen. Only for the fact that this happened on a fairly high profile recovery operation it would have slipped under most peoples radar.

If my gang weren't diving in Union Hall last week they would have been on a regular dive somewhere else in much the same conditions in any case so what's the difference? Most of these search and recovery dives take place in the same conditions that regular diving does and to the experienced diver offers no real extra challenge/threat.

Ray Palmer · 02-02-2012 06:39PM

OP here

What people seem to misunderstand is not simply about people wanting the body. I have a donor card and explained why my body doesn't matter to me when I am dead. Surely some fishermen feel the same can they not explain it to their families. Should more of the fishermen being thinking this way and some of families too.

I am sure people are very brave and people are very grateful but that doesn't mean that it is the best thing to do. I could very bravely run into a burining building and save somebody's life but it doesn't mean it is a good idea or will work each time.

I have made it very clear I would feel the same for my own family going missing. So for everybody who thinks I would feel differently you are simply wrong. I am not talking about searches for living people just obvious seraches for bodies. "recoveries"

dan719 · 02-02-2012 08:55PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

OP here

What people seem to misunderstand is not simply about people wanting the body. I have a donor card and explained why my body doesn't matter to me when I am dead. Surely some fishermen feel the same can they not explain it to their families. Should more of the fishermen being thinking this way and some of families too.

I am sure people are very brave and people are very grateful but that doesn't mean that it is the best thing to do. I could very bravely run into a burining building and save somebody's life but it doesn't mean it is a good idea or will work each time.

I have made it very clear I would feel the same for my own family going missing. So for everybody who thinks I would feel differently you are simply wrong. I am not talking about searches for living people just obvious seraches for bodies. "recoveries"

I am a fisherman and I do feel the same way. But most families dont. And like a funeral being for the living, the recovery is for the family too. I knew two of the men who were lost on the tit bonamme, and I would be delighted for Michael Hayes' family to have a body to bury. And the fact over fifty divers took part last weekend suggests Im not the only one.

May I ask have you any connection to the sea or the fishing industry?

WindSock · 03-02-2012 01:21AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not that I agree with the OP or anything but this is clearly not the same thing.

Its not risking lives to recover bodies, but the op asks if it is worth it when they are assumed to be dead. The 1000's of missing pics shows how desperately families want something of their loved ones.

mconigol · 03-02-2012 09:15AM

WindSock wrote: »

Its not risking lives to recover bodies, but the op asks if it is worth it when they are assumed to be dead. The 1000's of missing pics shows how desperately families want something of their loved ones.

Of course people's lives are at risk to recover bodies.

Families may want something of their loved ones but the question the OP is asking is the risk associated with this acceptable. Personally I don't think it is but I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me.

The divers/searchers may insist that they want to do it and are experienced etc...but that does not negate the fact that these recovery operations are inherently risky like all activities at sea.

twowheelsonly · 03-02-2012 09:38PM

mconigol wrote: »

Of course people's lives are at risk to recover bodies.

Families may want something of their loved ones but the question the OP is asking is the risk associated with this acceptable. Personally I don't think it is but I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me.

The divers/searchers may insist that they want to do it and are experienced etc...but that does not negate the fact that these recovery operations are inherently risky like all activities at sea.

The thing is, 99.99999% of the time the risk is actually fairly negligible to somebody that is qualified, experienced, familiar with the scenario and willing to risk assess every dive.

Compare it with somebody that goes running every day. They don't think twice about it most of the time, just get out and run. Safe as it might be, at times it carries risk, be it traffic, dogs, bad roads, lighting or whatever. However the runner will assess all these things and will adapt his running or route to accommodate these things, usually without even thinking about it. If however the ground is covered with snow or hard ice he will (in nearly all cases - there's always one!!) scrap his plans to go running.

Diving is pretty much the same. It's almost second nature to most very experienced divers and they will plan and act accordingly and sensibly. Just because an area was hazardous when an accident/incident occurred doesn't mean that it's like that every day.

With regard to Union Hall at the moment, in the current conditions I would regard the drive down there potentially more hazardous than the dive when you get there - and I'll treat them both with the respect they deserve.

03-02-2012 09:45PM

tricky D wrote: »

Closure is obviously a factor here.

However, there's something intangible that the sea does to many people who live near and work it. It can cut a deep groove into you, especially around working ports. ......................

There's also a similar thing in the military about recovering bodies.

Pretty much sums it up, my dad used to call salt water a disease.

Would also like to ask if the OP has or ever had any connection to the sea or the fishing industry?

Benny-c · 03-02-2012 10:18PM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

Difficult (though not impossible)to detect radio waves under water-I doubt if they would voluntarily wear them.

gcgirl · 03-02-2012 10:18PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Darwin_disappearance_case

Here c'mon still waiting for Richie out of the maniacs to turn up

Futtocks · 08-02-2012 09:19PM

sonners wrote: »

Life is full of risk and has resulted in death.

Thankfully there are people out there willing to manage this risk to the best of their abilities with training and organisation. These people put their life on the line in an attempt to provide solace to a grieving family. I am very very thankful that they do.

Well said Mate!

Poor Uncle Tom · 08-02-2012 09:41PM

Mike Hayes's body recovered today. Some closure for his family and friends.

MadameGascar · 08-02-2012 09:53PM

To have and to see the body is a necessary part of the grieving process.

Ray Palmer · 08-02-2012 10:28PM

MadameGascar wrote: »

To have and to see the body is a necessary part of the grieving process.

No it isn't, it is a cultural trait. In parts of italy they dig up the boies and rearrange them so they look good and they see that as important. It doesn't take much to change customs.

Moses G. Washington · 08-02-2012 10:34PM

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Some closure for his family and friends.

Like they think he gonna turn up alive or somethin'?

MadameGascar · 08-02-2012 11:29PM

No it isn't, it is a cultural trait. In parts of italy they dig up the boies and rearrange them so they look good and they see that as important. It doesn't take much to change customs.

Lots of funny things are done with corpses across the globe, tis indeed cultural. In the Congo they mourn over the dead and bury them, then dig them back up to throw stones at them and talk about what a bastard they might have been before reburial.

Seeing the body is psychologically important though, hence why it's such a widespread custom in whatever form it takes. You've to see it with your own eyes for your mind to fully realize it. My point still stands, this is part of mourning in Italian culture and couldn't be done without the body.

Paddy Cow · 09-02-2012 12:02AM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I just reckon I would say let it be with knowledge the person died at sea.

Well thankfully the members of the search and rescue teams think differently to you and are far more qualified to decide whether or not they are risking their lives.

If the death you are referring to is Mr O'Connor in the article, then that is a strange one. He was last seen 6 meters from the surface and then just disappeared. It was most likely to do with equipment malfunction, which can happen on any dive.

Poor Uncle Tom · 09-02-2012 12:16AM

Moses G. Washington wrote: »

Like they think he gonna turn up alive or somethin'?

Yeah, sure, that must be it...:rolleyes:

Missing fishermen and the searches

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