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Missing fishermen and the searches

  • 01-02-2012 03:16PM
    #1
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭


    While I get people are at the end of this it always seems strange people insist on getting the bodies back. If you are a fisherman do you really want to risk other peoples' live to get your body back? I just reckon I would say let it be with knowledge the person died at sea.

    There has been at least one death as a result of searching for the body of a fisherman lost at sea.

    It isn't like people reckon the person is alive and search in hope to find them alive it is litterally about having a body to bury


«13

Comments

  • #2
    pacquiao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭pacquiao


    Have you any brothers or sisters?


  • #3
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    pacquiao wrote: »
    Have you any brothers or sisters?
    Yes I have family. Do I want to risk someboy else's life to recover their body NO!


  • #4
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.


  • #5
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Without a body, and certainly without a search life assurance will not be paid out.

    There are tracking devices and man overboard systems out there but nobody buys them.


  • #6
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years


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  • #7
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    smash wrote: »
    Without a body, and certainly without a search life assurance will not be paid out.

    There are tracking devices and man overboard systems out there but nobody buys them.
    That is a very valid point.

    I think with that point in mind they should get trackers considering it is so risky for the people who are helping their families.


  • #8
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    The people doing the searching are the rescue services who would be better prepared than ordinary vessels. Its far less likely that they'd lose someone and they do everything humanly possible to bring bodies back to loved one's.


  • #9
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    The mania for public cost effectiveness in AH suddenly stoops even lower.


  • #10
    seantorious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭seantorious


    You should check the scuba forum http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056532286

    They have a thread about how dangerous search and rescue is and how irresponsible using the media to request people to do it is.
    pacquiao wrote: »
    Have you any brothers or sisters?
    What sort of question is that. Sure you may love your family, but putting your life in danger to "rescue" a corpse isn't on.


  • #11
    lastlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

    Something like that should be mandatory.


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  • #12
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Nobody is being forced to participate in the search and rescue and if you're going to be selfish soon after the death of a loved one seems an appropriate time to do so.


  • #13
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Many of the divers are volunteers.

    You can "reckon" all you like but you haven't a clue how you'd feel about such search operations unless one of your loved ones perished at sea.


  • #14
    CardBordWindow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭CardBordWindow


    You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.


  • #15
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    That is a very valid point.

    I think with that point in mind they should get trackers considering it is so risky for the people who are helping their families.
    How exactly is this technology fixed to the body?
    Wristwatches can be torn off in rough seas or if the body ends up on rocks.
    Likewise neck mounted transponders.
    The crew of the vessel were likely in bunk, are they supposed to wear these all the time even in bed?
    It would be something like the ones that criminals wear...
    The last body recovered was buried in the sediment, how does a transponder work underground?


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 523 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wow...just wow :(


  • #17
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    How exactly is this technology fixed to the body?
    Wristwatches can be torn off in rough seas or if the body ends up on rocks.
    Likewise neck mounted transponders.
    The crew of the vessel were likely in bunk, are they supposed to wear these all the time even in bed?
    It would be something like the ones that criminals wear...
    The last body recovered was buried in the sediment, how does a transponder work underground?

    Many just have small battery life and will only record where you entered the water. Although according to Dragon's Den that's good enough to approximate where the person, or body, should be when Search and Rescue starts (within a reasonable amount of time).


  • #18
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    CardBordWindow wrote: »
    You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.
    Well that would be you completely missing what I have said and misjudging everything about me.

    Yes I have had people die that were very close to me, thinking of that putting somebody else in danger so I can have a body is actually extended empathy.

    Wonder how you would feel if somebody somebody died trying to retrieve the body of one of your loved ones. Would it make you feel better or worse?

    If I die somewhere I personally would rather not have somebody risk their life to retrieve my corpse.

    If I was a fisherman I would feel the same and I wonder why they don't. The same way I signed a donor card, I would tell my family not to put people at risk to get my corpse.


  • #19
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    CardBordWindow wrote: »
    You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.
    Well that would be you completely missing what I have said and misjudging everything about me.

    Yes I have had people die that were very close to me, thinking of that putting somebody else in danger so I can have a body is actually extended empathy.

    Wonder how you would feel if somebody somebody died trying to retrieve the body of one of your loved ones. Would it make you feel better or worse?

    If I die somewhere I personally would rather not have somebody risk their life to retrieve my corpse.

    If I was a fisherman I would feel the same and I wonder why they don't. The same way I signed a donor card, I would tell my family not to put people at risk to get my corpse.
    The volunteers are highly trained and the search is safely done


  • #20
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Completely disagree but what I dont get is in this day and age why cant fishermen where some sort of special watch that can be tracked. If someones iphone is stolen there is an app that allows it to be tracked until thats deleted. Surely something similar in a waterproof watch would make things a lot easier. Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

    I doubt you have ever been at sea or been close to a deep sea fishing boat - they do not use technology other than radio's. They don't wear life-jackets most of the time, they are hardly going to wear a huge transponder on their wrist.

    I think the OP is heartless also.


  • #21
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    gcgirl wrote: »
    The volunteers are highly trained and the search is safely done
    It is still full of risk and has resulted in death


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  • #22
    sonners
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 317 ✭✭sonners


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    It is still full of risk and has resulted in death

    Life is full of risk and has resulted in death.

    Thankfully there are people out there willing to manage this risk to the best of their abilities with training and organisation. These people put their life on the line in an attempt to provide solace to a grieving family. I am very very thankful that they do.


  • #23
    rambutman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭rambutman


    brandon_flowers wrote: »
    I think the OP is heartless also.


    I don't think he is...............its a reasonably valid point

    and i have had a best friend drown, searched for him and been on the scene when they found him

    Damn right the family need closure but if someone else dies was it worth it?


  • #24
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    brandon_flowers wrote: »

    I think the OP is heartless also.

    Becasue I think other people shouldn't suffer I am heartless? Well you can call me heartless for that


  • #25
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    gcgirl wrote: »
    A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Darwin_disappearance_case


  • #26
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Equiping all fishermen with something like that surely couldnt cost as much as a week of searching.

    Man Overboard devices are small and pinned to clothing or harnesses.

    Interesting fact: capsizing of the maxi yacht Rambler 100 with 21 crew on board south of the Fastnet Rock were rescued quickly because a watching satellite picked up a very weak signal and Valentia Coast Guard launched a rescue probe.

    The irony is that the eperp on the yacht's mast did not activate a distress signal until two weeks after the capsizing. But one crewman wearing a personal Man-Overboard, a small short range device designed to find victims quickly from the yacht itself was the only distress signal activated.

    At the time the crew were in the water, they were unaware that the main emergency and very powerful signal had not automatically activated. [Scary].


  • #27
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,698 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Closure is obviously a factor here.

    However, there's something intangible that the sea does to many people who live near and work it. It can cut a deep groove into you, especially around working ports. Before modern communications, the lifeboats around here used to send up maroons* at any time of day or night. That would make people stop to reflect on mortality, the dangerous and cruel sea and such notions, and there would be a sort of community effect also, eg. talking the morning in the shops/on the train. This effect still kicks in when seeing the RNLI or ICG doing shouts or search patterns. You hope the body will be found, it just feels important even though hope is gone in reality.

    There's also a similar thing in the military about recovering bodies.

    * A maroon is a type of rocket which makes a loud banging report (noise) and a bright flash. It is used as an alarm or warning, for example the British Royal National Lifeboat Institution uses these rockets to call the crew when the lifeboat needs to be launched.


  • #28
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Same could be said to the people whos loved ones died in 9/11, they had pics all over the place when it could be assumed they were dead and not runaways.

    Do you think it was a waste of money getting DNA tests on whatever charred remains were found in the rubble?


  • #29
    mconigol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    stovelid wrote: »
    The mania for public cost effectiveness in AH suddenly stoops even lower.
    Dudess wrote: »
    Many of the divers are volunteers.

    You can "reckon" all you like but you haven't a clue how you'd feel about such search operations unless one of your loved ones perished at sea.
    CardBordWindow wrote: »
    You obviously have not had anybody close to you die. You're lucky.
    rambutman wrote: »
    I don't think he is...............its a reasonably valid point

    and i have had a best friend drown, searched for him and been on the scene when they found him

    Damn right the family need closure but if someone else dies was it worth it?

    As somebody who has worked offshore I would not want an extended "recovery" operation if I was lost at sea. "Search and Rescue", yes, "Recovery" no. Putting other peoples lives at risk is totally unwarranted in my opinion and I personally would not want it.

    I think people criticize the OP are being too harsh and he has a very valid point.


  • #30
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    gcgirl wrote: »
    A family cannot declare an unfounded body dead for 7 years

    There's no basis to this claim.


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  • #31
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    gbee wrote: »

    The irony is that the eperp on the yacht's mast did not activate a distress signal until two weeks after the capsizing. But one crewman wearing a personal Man-Overboard, a small short range device designed to find victims quickly from the yacht itself was the only distress signal activated.

    At the time the crew were in the water, they were unaware that the main emergency and very powerful signal had not automatically activated. [Scary].
    There is not much difference between a PLB and an EPIRB apart from length of transmission time.
    Old Personal locator beacons used to transmit on 121.5mhz which was a fairly localized signal that planes could use to home in on.
    The new ones transmit a GPS position as well as the 406mhz and 121.5mhz which allows a pretty accurate position.
    BUT the PLB has to stay with you, which sounds easy but on a really poor night when there is mountainous breaking seas on rocky coasts it could be easier said than done.
    All we can do is hope that these people get some closure, locals as well as the families of the fishermen.


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