GAME in serious trouble

James Howlett

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Tesco have been heavily discounting the big name games for the last few years and GTA4 certainly wasn't the first and they advertised it heavily. If you pre-order one of the biggest games ever in a shop expecting it to sell out (hint it won't but the shops will hold back the stock on the first day to simulate demand and only give them to pre-orders) then you were mugged if you paid more than Tescos charge which is usually 45-50 euros. Gamers need to shop around, there's absolutely no need to pre-order a game unless it's niche. People need to learn to shop around.

I agree with shopping around for the best price but I doubt that shops hold stock back. If someone puts a fist full of cash on the counter then they're hardly going to say no to it.

From my experience, of selling GTA IV on launch day, every floor copy sold out except for the pre-ordered copies which had to be kept back. At the end of the day said pre-ordered ppl were contact to confirm if they were still interested and if not the game went straight to the next person waiting. I don't see why any shop would hold back floor/ unpreordered products like that.

James Howlett

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

In regard to Tesco - GAME didn price match them because they were selling under cost. My view on this type of practise is it's anti-competative and in the long term damaging. That said I realise thats a minority opinion.

It's looking at the bigger picture, which I also view.

Retr0gamer

I walked into Gamestop and picked up a copy the day after launch with no pre-order. It might sell out in the centralised shops but there's shops on the outskirts as well.

As for selling games below cost I say you're still getting mugged if you paid more for it. As a consumer I'll buy the game as cheap as possible and if you can't match that you're not getting my money. No point throwing away 15 euros for a something as spiritual as 'loyalty'. It will just leave you 15 euros short changed.

James Howlett

Retr0gamer wrote: »

If you pre-order one of the biggest games ever in a shop expecting it to sell out (hint it won't but the shops will hold back the stock on the first day to simulate demand and only give them to pre-orders) then you were mugged if you paid more than Tescos charge which is usually 45-50 euros..

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I walked into Gamestop and picked up a copy the day after launch with no pre-order. It might sell out in the centralised shops but there's shops on the outskirts as well.

I don't get it, are you saying that if you walked into the same gamestop a day earlier, on launch day, they would not have sold the un-pre-ordered game to you?

Not trying to attack your post but I will add that my experience came from an uncentralised location. While I have no problem with people's preference to shop loyalty, if I have the cash and time for a game on day 1 and my favourite retailer does not have it in stock I will go elsewhere but I'm just pointing out that shops do not hold back stock.

marco_polo

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Fair comment any chance a mod could take the bits re the future of the gaming industy and dump it in another thread? If not I'll try and do a highlights thread when I get of my teeny tiny laptop as its an interesting discussion imho.

@Marcopolo to be fair we're talking about where we think its going rather than where it is now.

On BB infastructure that's not a major issue - esp given we're probably one of the furthest behind and we're a tiny market.

It is very obvious that distribution is heading for the digital distribution, you need only look at the PC where probably more than 50% of sales now do not involve a physical copy of the game, and of couse retail will continue to decline slowly but surely over the years, followed by online retailers of physical products. However the biggest factor for the growth of digital sales on PC is because peoples preference for digital over retail.

It is the leap from there to a single publisher location where you can buy a digital copy of the game where we part company. It will simply never happen, because it would most certainly breech all sorts of competiton laws and consumers would not stand for it. I would have certain reservations about digital only on a closed platform like the consoles, but then again there is no way that Sony or MS would be permitted to keep their exclusivity on their digital marketplaces if they were the only means of buying a game.

ghostchant

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I walked into Gamestop and picked up a copy the day after launch with no pre-order. It might sell out in the centralised shops but there's shops on the outskirts as well.

In fairness it's a bit of a leap to suggest that shops hold back stock to simulate demand based on that.

In full agreement with respect to shopping around for the best price, have to look after yourself first as a consumer, don't see why I have to donate money to shops due to loyalty

Retr0gamer

Maybe they are just making sure that they have stock for pre-orders but I know a lot of shops will only sell pre-orders on launch day, the day after they'll sell stock that isn't reserved for pre-orders. Whatever it is or if it's intentional or not it is holding back stock.

I was told to come back the next day for GTA 4 because they were only selling to people with pre-orders. Managed to get the game the next day.

Procrastastudy

@Retro - Actually I can see where you are coming from now. Yes this did happen that stock was held back incase a pre-orderer turned up for it. That was GAME's flawed pre-ordering system rather than anything as well though out as you suggest Having said that it was blindingly obvious that publishers were indeed up to what you suggest. Either that or lacked the basic ability to gauge sales.

@Marcopolo - Your point ref competition laws is well taken but the point has already been made about steam over charging becuase they've cornered the market which is the point I've been making.

On a side note retro - if you'd have been one of my regualars you'd have got it without a pre-order

Beefy78

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

Nope. I believe it, but I can't prove it.

It's been seen before that retailers and suppliers **** each other over when their interests don't coincide, in all sectors.

They do, but as we've seen with the speed at which GAME collapsed, it's becoming more and more the case that the retailers need the publishers more than the publishers need the retailers. People rarely go into shops and then decide what new game they want - you decide what new game you want and then go to where is selling it cheapest.

Basically, I doubt that any high street games retailer has the sort of leverage nowadays that you're suggest that they have.

Helix

noodler wrote: »

??

Strange argument Retr0, whatever Tesco's relatively small market share in video games now, it would have been even smaller 4/5 years ago.

It seems strange to compare one of their 'limited time only' prices to the other 90% of the market and say you were mugged.

zavvi is now 90% of the market?

i bought gta for somewhere in the region of €50 in dublin city, and never once saw it for more than that

if people paid €75 they're idiots, and trying to justify paying that kind of money isn't helping their point. what is becoming apparent is that irish consumers seem incapable of shopping around, and will happily pay any price

that's your problem

Procrastastudy

I love the fact that GTA was a cornered market therefore people got ripped off - but people are still celabrating the demise of competition which is what prevents this.

As for the tesco argument - they would have had about 10 copies per store.

Helix

ghostchant wrote: »

In fairness it's a bit of a leap to suggest that shops hold back stock to simulate demand based on that.

its really not

ask nintendo

Procrastastudy

Did hell just freeze over. Helix and I agree on something!

Long running joke in some circles in Ireland that Nintendo was japanese for sitting on stock.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Tesco have been heavily discounting the big name games for the last few years and GTA4 certainly wasn't the first and they advertised it heavily. If you pre-order one of the biggest games ever in a shop expecting it to sell out (hint it won't but the shops will hold back the stock on the first day to simulate demand and only give them to pre-orders) then you were mugged if you paid more than Tescos charge which is usually 45-50 euros. Gamers need to shop around, there's absolutely no need to pre-order a game unless it's niche. People need to learn to shop around.

I am not to sure where pre-orders fit into my post which you are replying to but just because somebody got a bargain by purchasing one of the few copies a Tesco may have been loss-leading with doesn't mean everybody else was mugged.

Granted if the majority of places were selling something for a lower price and you still bought high then the analogy might work better.

Helix wrote: »

zavvi is now 90% of the market?

?

Helix wrote: »

i bought gta for somewhere in the region of €50 in dublin city, and never once saw it for more than that

if people paid €75 they're idiots, and trying to justify paying that kind of money isn't helping their point. what is becoming apparent is that irish consumers seem incapable of shopping around, and will happily pay any price

that's your problem

I have no idea what you are talking about or why you quoted me in your response but I think your post is badly misdirected.

Beefy78

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for selling games below cost I say you're still getting mugged if you paid more for it. As a consumer I'll buy the game as cheap as possible and if you can't match that you're not getting my money. No point throwing away 15 euros for a something as spiritual as 'loyalty'. It will just leave you 15 euros short changed.

I don't disagree but you do wonder where it will lead. I'm from the UK where every shop and every pub in every High Street in every town is identical because big chain retailers sprung up offering the same goods as the 'Mom & Pop' store next door but at a cheaper price either because of their bulk-buying power or because they're pricing below cost in order to gain market share and drive competition out of business.

Now we're seeing big chain retailers go the same way as the local businesses of the past due to Supermarkets and online sites doing the same thing to them.

Now, you could argue that the public win through better prices - the very essence of capitalism - but ultimately when the competition start dying off still further prices will rise. Again, it's just basic economics.

Helix

noodler wrote: »

I
I have no idea what you are talking about or why you quoted me in your response but I think your post is badly misdirected.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77837565&postcount=953

ghostchant

Helix wrote: »

its really not

ask nintendo

The Nintendo store in NY? I was referring to game shops, I'm not suggesting publishers don't do it.

dpe

marco_polo wrote: »

It is very obvious that distribution is heading for the digital distribution, you need only look at the PC where probably more than 50% of sales now do not involve a physical copy of the game, and of couse retail will continue to decline slowly but surely over the years, followed by online retailers of physical products. However the biggest factor for the growth of digital sales on PC is because peoples preference for digital over retail.

It is the leap from there to a single publisher location where you can buy a digital copy of the game where we part company. It will simply never happen, because it would most certainly breech all sorts of competiton laws and consumers would not stand for it. I would have certain reservations about digital only on a closed platform like the consoles, but then again there is no way that Sony or MS would be permitted to keep their exclusivity on their digital marketplaces if they were the only means of buying a game.

Unfortunately wrong on a number of counts. There's absolutely no legal obligation for a publisher to sell a digital copy on multiple sites, any more than there's an obligation for say, Gucci, to sell their stuff anywhere but their own site (which is what they do). In fact EA has already started down this road by pulling games (e.g. BF3) off Steam and onto its own Origin platform. Whether that's commercially the right thing to do is a different question.

As for the console platforms, once again they can close the system if they want to, and Microsoft (with one exception*) do just that on XBox Live! where the whole user experience and billing relationship is owned by them. The reason is simply one of how you define your market. As long as Miscrosoft can show they don't have a dominant position in the whole games market, then there's no monopolistic behaviour and no case to answer. This was actually one of the problems a retailer like GAME faced; there is no obligation for the console manufacturers to allow other digital distribution providers onto their platform, unless one console becomes dominant (north of 45% share) over the others. Past a certain market share then they would attract regulatory interest, which is what happened to Sky in the UK and meant they had to open up their EPG and also allow rival casual games services onto it.

Now whether customers will stand for it is a different question, but experience so far suggests that in the games market the general view of gamers is that retailers are evil and need to die, publishers are nearly as evil and need to die except when they also give us nice shiny hardware (the "EA=bad, Nintendo=good" scenario), and that developers are lovely fluffy bunnies to be loved and cherished, even when they're obviously as rapacious as any retailer or publisher that ever lived (I'm looking at you Valve). So yeah, I think customers will put up with it if its sold to them by the "right" people.

(*the exception is once again EA, who threatened to pull the Madden franchise off XBL if they didn't get their own billing platform integrated into XBL. In EA's defence they were understandably concerned that Microsoft were harvesting customer data to flog them their own sports games).

dpe

ghostchant wrote: »

The Nintendo store in NY? I was referring to game shops, I'm not suggesting publishers don't do it.

Nintendo short-supply at retail to keep demand high. They're absolute masters at it.

ghostchant

dpe wrote: »

Nintendo short-supply at retail to keep demand high. They're absolute masters at it.

My point was referring to the allegation that game shops themselves hold back stock (as in hold it back in their stock room) to inflate apparent demand. Wasn't talking about publishers.

noodler

Helix wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77837565&postcount=953

Correct.

If you manage to get a bargain on a game from a store supplying a limited supply of them then well done to you. However, given that this store makes up a small minority of games sold, I would say it is a stretch to say "you were mugged".

You wrote a couple of general paragraphs about how people should shop around and I agree - I just don't think someone can be accused of being a reckless spender because they didn't avail of a relatively limited Tesco offer.

Retr0gamer

Beefy78 wrote: »

I don't disagree but you do wonder where it will lead. I'm from the UK where every shop and every pub in every High Street in every town is identical because big chain retailers sprung up offering the same goods as the 'Mom & Pop' store next door but at a cheaper price either because of their bulk-buying power or because they're pricing below cost in order to gain market share and drive competition out of business.

Now we're seeing big chain retailers go the same way as the local businesses of the past due to Supermarkets and online sites doing the same thing to them.

Now, you could argue that the public win through better prices - the very essence of capitalism - but ultimately when the competition start dying off still further prices will rise. Again, it's just basic economics.

I honestly don't care. As long as I save money I'm happy. Make no mistake every shop is out to get money and owes you absolutely nothing for your loyalty. If they can't compete they go bust and deservedly so. If you can't keep up it's not my fault. It's how capitalism works.

corcaigh07

Retr0gamer wrote: »

And if you paid that you were mugged since it was less than 50 in Tesco.

nope, i didn't. needed a 360 first! people will pay the going rate and because everywhere else sold out, it allowed zavvi to ask for the 75 euro.

btw, more on topic, im in toronto and there is far less competition for gaming, gamestop's monopoly isn't a nice thing to be a part of, no sales, very bad trade-ins, no offers, games costing 60 bucks plus 13% HRT Tax and staying at those prices for longer, we will all miss GAME as time passes.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

Correct.

If you manage to get a bargain on a game from a store supplying a limited supply of them then well done to you. However, given that this store makes up a small minority of games sold, I would say it is a stretch to say "you were mugged".

There wasn't a limited number though, the tesco's that carried it had loads. Sure there's even 24 hour tescos if you didn't want to cue up outside a shop to be mugged. It definitely didn't sell out in any of the tesco's so it wasn't like you had to pay 70 euros or not get your copy.

As I said GTA 4 was far from sold out. Games are produced on dirt cheap optical medium. It's not like the Ocarina of Time shortage when games were produced on expensive ROM chips that were hard to manufacture and even then Ocarina could be found in shops if you shopped around.

kearneybobs

GAME (well, the administrators) have reactivated the Reward Card system. I presume that's only for the remaining stores that have been left open in the UK?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-29-game-administrators-reactivate-reward-cards

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There wasn't a limited number though, the tesco's that carried it had loads. Sure there's even 24 hour tescos if you didn't want to cue up outside a shop to be mugged. It definitely didn't sell out in any of the tesco's so it wasn't like you had to pay 70 euros or not get your copy.

Again, you are generalising now when you made a very specific point earlier.

Saying somebody was mugged because they didn't get a Day 1 introductory Tesco deal on a computer game is a stretch.

If a significant number of the main retailers, GAME, Gamestop, HMV etc were selling it for the low price then you could argue that somebody was 'mugged'.

It is overly harsh to apply it in the context you did earlier.

Beefy78

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I honestly don't care. As long as I save money I'm happy. Make no mistake every shop is out to get money and owes you absolutely nothing for your loyalty. If they can't compete they go bust and deservedly so. If you can't keep up it's not my fault. It's how capitalism works.

That's exactly the point that I made. But you may care in a few years if a lack of competition eliminates downward pressures on price, which is exactly what I suspect will happen.

Helix

noodler wrote: »

Correct.

If you manage to get a bargain on a game from a store supplying a limited supply of them then well done to you. However, given that this store makes up a small minority of games sold, I would say it is a stretch to say "you were mugged".

You wrote a couple of general paragraphs about how people should shop around and I agree - I just don't think someone can be accused of being a reckless spender because they didn't avail of a relatively limited Tesco offer.

i bought that particular game in smyths, not tesco, and i didnt pay €75 for it

norrie rugger

Helix wrote: »

i bought that particular game in smyths, not tesco, and i didnt pay €75 for it

Same here

Procrastastudy

kearneybobs wrote: »

GAME (well, the administrators) have reactivated the Reward Card system. I presume that's only for the remaining stores that have been left open in the UK?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-29-game-administrators-reactivate-reward-cards

Holy Jesus On topic post Batman!

The UK and Irish reward systems were never differentiated. UK stores (and the system) have no idea if your points acumilated from Euro or Sterling Sales.

They may have been sneaky enough not to reactivate it for NI stores but I doubt it. Give one of the three (or what ever pitifully small number it is) a call and get up there if you have loads of points.