The future of Airports in ireland

DWCommuter · 22-01-2012 10:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats my whole argument, the standard of the road connections from north south east and west to Knock airport are just terrible. Any improvements to these roads will improve Knocks viability. With these improvements Knock will be within an hours drive for a fairly large section of the country.

So all roads should lead to Knock. The N17 isn't that bad and that's its primary connection. So be it. Please face it. Knock is a mickey mouse airport and if it pays its way then fair play. If it doesn't it should close. This airport was a religious brain child that had nothing to do with economics. It has recasted itself into a regional airport, once the pilgrimmes didn't show up en masse. Its business these days is flying real people to where they want to go along with 20 somethings heading to the sun for a week or two of sex and booze. Not quite what the Monsignor had in mind. As I said, if it can maintain this without state aid, let it roll. If not, demolish it. End of.

runway16 · 23-01-2012 12:05am

There is no issue whatsoever of Knock airport closing.

Knock continues to attract airlines which is more than can be said for other Irish airports at the moment. There should be investment in road links towards the airport because it is now the natural choice for the West and North west. An airport like Knock that can open and close according to the schedule has an obvious cost advantage over one that needs to stay open 24H.

OK, it may not be what the Monsignor wanted - but who cares what he wanted. The fact is it is following a course that is succesful, it is slowly building up a critical mass, and it will continue to do so.

Back to the wider issue of airport infrastructure in Ireland generally, Dublin will obviously continue as the major gateway, and sorry to anyone elsewhere who wants it to be "their" local airport, but it is never going to happen, so just face up to it. Cork and Shannon is an issue, IMHO.

There is no need for two airports for Cork and Limerick, and with Kerry thrown in the mix too. The ideal solution would be one airport, centrally located on the proposed M20 corridor, with rail access to each city. This would combine Cork's European route strength with SNN's transatlantic strength and ensure a critical mass which could sustain potentially many more European services and a few more Transatlantic links.

So, we would be left with Dublin, Knock, a combined Cork / Shannon, and Derry to serve the far North west of the country.

There is no point having an airport on your door step if it barely sustain one bloody route. Better to have something at an hours distance where you have a large choice of destinations you need.

Trotter · 23-01-2012 12:14am

bk wrote: »

I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

Im in Waterford.

Its a 90 minute drive to Cork airport on a very good day.

Its a 2hr drive to Dublin Airport if Im the only one using the Naas Dual Carriageway.

Shannon is over 2 hours away.

You can imagine therefore that the 'Im ok so the rest of them can make do' attitude by many towards many issues including airports, education etc can be frustrating.

So with 60k people in Waterford (low guess), theres 1.25% ish of the Irish population that are more than 90 mins from those airports mentioned, never mind an hour away. Id be confident of finding the other 9% needed to debunk the 90% figure.

runway16 · 23-01-2012 12:41am

The solution to that is to improve road links, not build or sustain yet another airport.

My solution above would be within an hour of Waterford by road if done properly.

60K people wont sustain an airport with a decent range of flights. We need to realise that. It may be handy for whoever wants to fly to London or Birmingham, but not for anyone else, because that's all Waterford airport can really sustain. Anyone flying elsewhere has to go to another airport. Those people are denied the opportunity of a large airport reasonably close by, because everyone wants their little airport down the road - problem is, all those little airports are cutting into each other's catchment area, meaning none of them can really develop and sustain routes.

Trotter · 23-01-2012 12:54am

runway16 wrote: »

The solution to that is to improve road links, not build or sustain yet another airport.

My solution above would be within an hour of Waterford by road if done properly.

60K people wont sustain an airport with a decent range of flights. We need to realise that. It may be handy for whoever wants to fly to London or Birmingham, but not for anyone else, because that's all Waterford airport can really sustain. Anyone flying elsewhere has to go to another airport. Those people are denied the opportunity of a large airport reasonably close by, because everyone wants their little airport down the road - problem is, all those little airports are cutting into each other's catchment area, meaning none of them can really develop and sustain routes.

I havent suggested
A) That Waterford Airport serves 60k people because it is used by much of the population of Wexford, Tipperary and Kilkenny.

That the government should sustain the airport in Waterford. Id much prefer it to stand on its own legs because it stops the government making cuts in it to appease the urban centres regardless of the social cost to all other areas.

If Waterford had the private investment to extend the runway to accomodate jet aircraft, I believe it would stand on its own very well and service the whole South East region of Ireland even better than it does now. Such a success though would be sour tasting to many that believe that people should live in a major city or go away and be quiet.

I look forward to Flybe attracting visitors to Waterford and the South East and customers to travel to Paris and Dusseldorf (via Birmingam) from the wider south easter region.

bk · 23-01-2012 12:58am

Trotter wrote: »

Im in Waterford.

Its a 90 minute drive to Cork airport on a very good day.

Its a 2hr drive to Dublin Airport if Im the only one using the Naas Dual Carriageway.

Shannon is over 2 hours away.

So basically you are saying you are within 2 hours of every major airport in Ireland and the closest is just 90 minutes away.

Come on, 90 minutes is totally an acceptable amount of time to get to an Airport, it is not as if it is something most people do every day. It is hardly a major hardship!!

I'm from Cork and most of my family and friends drive to Dublin (about 3 hours) to fly (cheaper flights and more destinations). So no, 60,000 people within 90 minutes of an airport don't justify yet another stupid, unsustainable airport!!

Trotter · 23-01-2012 1:01am

bk wrote: »

So basically you are saying you are within 2 hours of every major airport in Ireland and the closest is just 90 minutes away.

Come on, 90 minutes is totally an acceptable amount of time to get to an Airport, it is not as if it is something most people do every day. It is hardly a major hardship!!

I'm from Cork and most of my family and friends drive to Dublin (about 3 hours) to fly (cheaper flights and more destinations). So no, 60,000 people within 90 minutes of an airport don't justify yet another stupid, unsustainable airport!!

Waterford airport is sustainable because it is sustaining itself now.
Its not stupid. :rolleyes: and as I mentioned above, its being used by more than 60k people.

You're from Cork, so you're happy to have an airport on your doorstep. If I need to do business for a day in the UK, I need to be able to do it faster than 2 90 minute drives, time spent in security either side, and travel to and from the business I need to do.

Anyway.. I'll bail at this point. Its futile when an airport thats doing very well is termed.. stupid.

bk · 23-01-2012 1:20am

Trotter wrote: »

Anyway.. I'll bail at this point. Its futile when an airport thats doing very well is termed.. stupid.

When I said stupid, I wasn't specifically talking about any specific airport.

Instead I was talking about the idea that an island of just 4 million people and under 500 km long should have 9 international airports!!!

Must of them should never have been built and certainly not where they were.

If you have to do business for the day in London, traveling 90 minutes isn't a big deal. If you are regularly doing business in London, then you should move to London or somewhere closer to an airport that serves London.

You can't justify building expensive infrastructure just because it might be useful to a small number of people. You have to do a cost benefit analysis.

Frankly we are getting to the stage where even Cork and Shannon airports are questionable, never mind the smaller airports.

Of course Waterford is there now. So if it can survive without further taxpayer subsidy or grants, then fair play to it, it deserves to survive, it has proven itself. But it certainly should get another cent of taxpayers money.

Alfasud · 23-01-2012 1:21am

One way to utilise Shannon would be to build the proposed Chinese Hub close to it. It could use the cargo facility

Jim Martin · 23-01-2012 12:55pm

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

bk · 23-01-2012 1:41pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

No. Irish Rail did a feasibility study of this in 2006 and found little justification for it, the reports conclusion was:

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/ShannonFinalReport_Final_%20270607.pdf

The high quality road network is a significant factor in the low benefits produced by any of the rail schemes. This can be exploited to significantly improve the bus and coach service from Shannon Airport. We have considered an ‘all bus’ option, which would increase frequencies and reduce journey times consistently, giving a service level almost indistinguishable from that provided by the train service. This is achievable at much lower cost - some initial subvention and minor capital works – and more quickly than the rail options.

BTW The cost of this in 2006 was found to be between €245 and €440 million, with more then a €7million operating deficit. So basically the Western Rail Corridor all over again, but even worse this time.

L1011 · 23-01-2012 10:33pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

How often are ORK *and* DUB shut on the same day, for a prolonged period that wouldn't allow craft to then divert back to ORK/DUB?

I'd imagine "its never happened" is the answer for that.

deccurley wrote: »

The N5 and N4 are in atrocious condition in parts.

The N4 is atrocious for approximately 11km out of its entire length (north of Castlebaldwin to south of the N17 RAB at Colooney). This is only due to it having been one of the straightest bits of the N4 as was, even if it has a few lethal bends in it

Otherwise it is generally the highest quality SC road in the country, consisting mostly of offline bypasses and realignments; with DC at both ends and for a bit in the middle. Needs a Carrick bypass, and the Castlebaldwin scheme, done urgently but that's it.

cson · 24-01-2012 11:25am

Shannon is criminally under utilised given the facilities it has. It should ideally be sold to the private sector where I'd be reasonably confident it would flourish. Whether we can justify 4 International Airports at that point is debatable. NOC is commercially viable and is doing a super job but I genuinely think a completed Atlantic Corridor M road would cause it serious damage if Shannon were to be privatised.

24-01-2012 12:57pm

cson wrote: »

Shannon is criminally under utilised given the facilities it has. It should ideally be sold to the private sector where I'd be reasonably confident it would flourish. Whether we can justify 4 International Airports at that point is debatable. NOC is commercially viable and is doing a super job but I genuinely think a completed Atlantic Corridor M road would cause it serious damage if Shannon were to be privatised.

Maybe, But remember Shannon is two hours south of Knock airport on a quiet day. I can't see people from the north west travelling a further two hours south just to go to shannon, they would be as well to travel to Dublin.

If the atlantic corridor was completed it would make Knock much more accessible to both Galway and Sligo and might actually start to take more traffic from shannon. Knock maybe tiny but its still filling 3 flights a day to London every day(shannon having 5/day). Sligo and Galway access may give it that critical mass needed to allow other destinations to have multiple flights/day.

Shannon as motorway access from all directions and is still floundering, Cork, Kerry and Shannon in a relatively small enclosed region is probably overkill. For shannon to recover Cork or Kerry will likely have to close!!, lots of Munster is only 90 minutes from Dublin airport(because of the excellent roads in Munster and Leinster), the rest of Munster is served by 3 airports. It doesn't help that two of those are state run. Ideally those 3 airports should of been amalgamated in somewhere like cahir??An airport that would give excellent service and be busy. You'd then have Knock for the west north west and west midlands border region, Cahir for munster and South Leinster, Dublin for the rest.

dubhthach · 24-01-2012 1:28pm

The M17/M18 also makes Shannon more accessible to Galway, it will put Tuam about 1hour from Shannon for example.

cson · 24-01-2012 5:25pm

Shannon has better existing facilities than Knock ergo investment should be directed there tbh.

dowlingm · 24-01-2012 6:40pm

bk wrote: »

No. Irish Rail did a feasibility study of this in 2006 and found little justification for it, the reports conclusion was:

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/ShannonFinalReport_Final_%20270607.pdf

It would be nice to see a bit of the proposed works done to improve Limerick-Ennis (the ones from Limerick Check to Cratloe) but the only way rail would ever have been realistic from Shannon Airport is if Shannon Town had been heavily developed (up to and including priority over Ennis) and if alignments had been preserved in the town's development plan. The genesis of Shannon was in an age when people aspired to a car society and I guess leaving room for rail was deemed "old Ireland".

24-01-2012 9:29pm

cson wrote: »

Shannon has better existing facilities than Knock ergo investment should be directed there tbh.

Sure!! keep pumping in investment into areas that by your own admission have good facilities and let the other deprived areas get worse just because .....Wait for it ...................they already have bad facilities.

:rolleyes: Sounds a bit like government policy.

robd · 25-01-2012 10:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure!! keep pumping in investment into areas that by your own admission have good facilities and let the other deprived areas get worse just because .....Wait for it ...................they already have bad facilities. :rolleyes: Sounds a bit like government policy.

The statistics for Knock speaks for itself. 654k passengers in 2011. Shannon carried 1.6m. 654k is peak for Knock. Peak for Shannon is 3.6m in 2006. Both airports are completely at the whim of one Michael O'Leary. Knock should be closed to make Shannon viable.

Roads and rail are irrelevant. If people have limited airports they'll make the journey accordingly. They'll make their own comparison with costs and transit times (such as choosing between Dublin, Cork and Shannon).

I'd also close Kerry, Donegal, Galway, Sligo and Waterford Airports. I'd remove all PSO funding too.

I'd prefer to see PSO money going into Atlantic Corridor. I'd removing funding for Western Rail Corridor and other bad Irish Rail routes and divert to Atlantic Corridor also. Atlantic Corridor is only regional transport that actually makes any sense what so ever.

Sponge Bob · 25-01-2012 12:20pm

Now we have a Modern Reboot of the old Passports for Sale scheme (which was what really got Kerry Airport a Terminal and New Runway back in the day ) maybe some squiddlies can be magicked up to develop Knock.

What would you personally advise these people to invest in up there Mayomaffia ???

25-01-2012 12:40pm

robd wrote: »

The statistics for Knock speaks for itself. 654k passengers in 2011. Shannon carried 1.6m. 654k is peak for Knock. Peak for Shannon is 3.6m in 2006. Both airports are completely at the whim of one Michael O'Leary. Knock should be closed to make Shannon viable.

Roads and rail are irrelevant. If people have limited airports they'll make the journey accordingly. They'll make their own comparison with costs and transit times (such as choosing between Dublin, Cork and Shannon).

I'd also close Kerry, Donegal, Galway, Sligo and Waterford Airports. I'd remove all PSO funding too.

I'd prefer to see PSO money going into Atlantic Corridor. I'd removing funding for Western Rail Corridor and other bad Irish Rail routes and divert to Atlantic Corridor also. Atlantic Corridor is only regional transport that actually makes any sense what so ever.

Robd i agree with most of your post except obviously with closing Knock. Shannon and Cork are in the South of the country with Dublin on the east coast. That leaves a whole swayed of the country unserviced by any airport.

Surely its shannon or Cork that should be shut to make the other viable due to their close proximity(this is assuming the Kerry also shuts). Knock is used by a big section of the country because of its location, cheap flights and one of the quickest to get in and out of. Closing this is more likely to switch it customer base to Belfast or Dublin not SNN.

If you go to Knock you'd be surprised at the catchment area that Knock has for customers. Improve the road connections and it would seriously start to undermine SNN for european flights. SNN is just in the wrong place, it doesn't serve the people of the West or North west or Border area because its too far South, its doesn't serve the people of the south because they have Cork and further east they have DUB by motorway access.

They could use SNN as a military base or cargo transit base ?? It would make Cork and Knock more viable.

25-01-2012 1:14pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Now we have a Modern Reboot of the old Passports for Sale scheme (which was what really got Kerry Airport a Terminal and New Runway back in the day ) maybe some squiddlies can be magicked up to develop Knock.

What would you personally advise these people to invest in up there Mayomaffia ???

When i talk investment, im talking very minor or overdue things like the extension of the airport apron(which i think they have got funding for), and improvements of the N17(sligo area) and N5(Roscommon and Longford Area), hardly earth shattering or unwarrented investment.

Knock was built and funded in the early days by collections from Locals and help from contractors and those willing to contribute. Its a pity the DAA airports do not have a fraction of the same work ethic.

What are they doing with the grounds of Galway airport, has it been converted back to agricultural land or are the army going to move from Renmore to use the shed(airport) for storage ?:)

robd · 25-01-2012 1:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Robd i agree with most of your post except obviously with closing Knock. Shannon and Cork are in the South of the country with Dublin on the east coast. That leaves a whole swayed of the country unserviced by any airport.

You're looking at it in terms of area rather than population and population density.

Knock covers Mayo (130k/23.3 p/km2), Sligo(65k/ 35.5 p/km2), Roscommon(63k/25 p/km2), Leitrim(31k/19.9 p/km2)

Shannon covers Clare(116k 33.8 p/km2), Limerick(191k/69.4), Galway(250k/ 40.7 p/km2). Part covers Kerry(145k) and Tipperary(158k).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_on_the_island_of_Ireland_by_population

Problem is more to do with distribution of people around Ireland. Given urbanisation, Limerick and Galway cities will increase too. Galway city to Shannon Airport is 1hr 10 on good road while 1hr 20 to Knock. Shannon is well placed to serve these two urban centres. Limerick urban has 90k population while Galway metro has population of 75k. Even Ennis has 25k bigger than any town in Mayo or Sligo (Sligo town has 18k).

From a spacial planning point of view, Knock should be cut to save Shannon.

dubhthach · 25-01-2012 1:24pm

The problem obviously is that fact that basically all proposed road schemes have been "suspended" (*cough* cancelled *cough*) due to fiscal position. After all they were in design for 2+2 from Tuam to Claremorris for example (which would tie in with Tuam Bypass/M17 motorway).

As well as the following:

N17 Tobercurry Bypass To Knock Bypass (25.7km of 2+2 DC)
N17 Tobercurry Bypass (10.2km of 2+2 DC)
N17 Collooney to Tubbercurry (14km of 2+2 DC)
N15 Sligo to County Boundary (6km of Type 1 dual carriageway and 20km of Type 2 dual carriageway.)
N5 Scramoge to Ballaghderreen (2+2 DC)

The following are still at some stage of planning:

N5 Westport to Turlough
N5 Ballaghaderreen Bypass

At least the N5 longford bypass has been started.

25-01-2012 1:36pm

robd wrote: »

You're looking at it in terms of area rather than population and population density.

Knock covers Mayo (130k/23.3 p/km2), Sligo(65k/ 35.5 p/km2), Roscommon(63k/25 p/km2), Leitrim(31k/19.9 p/km2)

Shannon covers Clare(116k 33.8 p/km2), Limerick(191k/69.4), Galway(250k/ 40.7 p/km2). Part covers Kerry(145k) and Tipperary(158k).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_on_the_island_of_Ireland_by_population

Problem is more to do with distribution of people around Ireland. Given urbanisation, Limerick and Galway cities will increase too. Galway city to Shannon Airport is 1hr 10 on good road while 1hr 20 to Knock. Shannon is well placed to serve these two urban centres. Limerick urban has 90k population while Galway metro has population of 75k. Even Ennis has 25k bigger than any town in Mayo or Sligo (Sligo town has 18k).

From a spacial planning point of view, Knock should be cut to save Shannon.

Robd, you can add in Galway(Tuam is 35 minutes away, The city 1 hr away) Longford, Athlone(more and more midland traffic from the midlands using it due to it been quicker to transit than DUB), Cavan, Donegal,and Fermanagh(just look at the percentage of Northern cars in the car park each day) to that list.

You can massage the numbers any way you like, but while Cork and kerry airports are there SNN will get very few customers south of Limerick, East of SNN has great motorway access to Dublin so less and less customers there. Galway city is equal distance between Knock and SNN, with most of the county closer to Knock.

Knock is growing for a reason, because it has an increasing customer base. SNN is declining because they are in an area thats overpopulated with airports. Without the US Army SNN would be in trouble trying to maintain its 24hr airport. If the M20 ever gets done then either Cork or SNN will close(i cant see it been cork). The airport for that region should of been built in cahir or close by instead of 3 airports.

Knock will likely never be as big as SNN it will always be a regional airport but they are expecting in excess of 1 million passengers per year within the next 5 years with the routes increasing year on year, this will have the effect of more services available and a snowball effect to keep it self sustaining. Not running 24hrs is helping to maintain its profitability, a route which SNN may as well go with ever decreasing passenger numbers.

25-01-2012 1:57pm

dubhthach wrote: »

The problem obviously is that fact that basically all proposed road schemes have been "suspended" (*cough* cancelled *cough*) due to fiscal position. After all they were in design for 2+2 from Tuam to Claremorris for example (which would tie in with Tuam Bypass/M17 motorway).

As well as the following:
N17 Tobercurry Bypass To Knock Bypass (25.7km of 2+2 DC)

N17 Tobercurry Bypass (10.2km of 2+2 DC)

N17 Collooney to Tubbercurry (14km of 2+2 DC)

N15 Sligo to County Boundary (6km of Type 1 dual carriageway and 20km of Type 2 dual carriageway.)

N5 Scramoge to Ballaghderreen (2+2 DC)

The following are still at some stage of planning:
N5 Westport to Turlough

N5 Ballaghaderreen Bypass

At least the N5 longford bypass has been started.

I can see the Tuam Claremorris road getting done fairly rapid if they ever do the M17. While not the busiest section of the N17 road. Its one of the deadliest with multiple deaths on one small section including 5 girls last year. Not counting all the cars you see stuck in the ditch there. I hate travelling that section of road:(

robd · 25-01-2012 2:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Knock is growing for a reason, because it has an increasing customer base. SNN is declining because they are in an area thats overpopulated with airports.

Knock is growing because it's currently in flavor with Michael O'Leary. Shannon declined because it fell out of flavor with Michael O'Leary and he chopped the flight schedule to bits.

The man could bust Knock in the morning if he so wished.

It's one extremely dangerous business model.

robd · 25-01-2012 2:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Robd i agree with most of your post except obviously with closing Knock. Shannon and Cork are in the South of the country with Dublin on the east coast. That leaves a whole swayed of the country unserviced by any airport.

A huge swath of the country without the population Density to justify an airport. Donegal has access to Derry anyway.

Your Galway equidistant argument doesn't stack up. Limerick is the 3rd city in Republic (5th in whole island). Thus is deserves an airport. As Galway is equidistant it makes sense to put funds into Airport that serves the 2 not one that serves 1.

Location of Shannon is historic and is the way it is. I'm analysing the situation as it is. We've got to think cities not regions.

No funding will be made for any roads anytime soon so road to Knock argument doesn't stack either.

Of course political interference will keep it open anyway. The Leader of the country is a Mayo man of course. So you don't really need to worry.

bk · 25-01-2012 2:43pm

What thing to consider if talking about Shannon versus Knock, is that Shannon will never be closed as it is one of the most important "technical" airports in Europe.

Due to it's location and long runway, it is the emergency landing runway for any transatlantic flights that get into trouble.

Knock doesn't have the facilities to handle this, so Shannon will never be closed.

There is a very strong argument for closing Knock, even if it doesn't require subsidy. Knocks recent growth has been from Ryanair transferring business from Shannon to Knock. This is due to Knock airport charges being lower then Shannon. The reason Knock charges are cheaper is because it is a much smaller airport, with far less facilities to maintain.

But this then means less business at Shannon, which means the government have to pay more subsidies to keep Shannon open. The government have no choice but to keep Shannon open due to the importance of it to transatlantic aviation.

So if they were to close Knock, it would force Ryanair back to Shannon, thus requiring less subsidies at Shannon.

Sorry if my explanation is a bit hard to follow.

antoobrien · 25-01-2012 3:25pm

bk wrote: »

So if they were to close Knock, it would force Ryanair back to Shannon, thus requiring less subsidies at Shannon.

Sorry if my explanation is a bit hard to follow.

Can't consider doing that until one or possibly both of a) dc/motorway/rail link direct from sligo to shannon b) N4 upgraded to DC from Sligo to Mullingar.

As it is Knock is giving a lesson to the DAA about how an airport should be run.

Btw I have driven from Dublin to Galway so I could fly out of knock as the flights have been far cheaper (the taxi fair alone is half the cost of the petrol and I'm near enough Dublin airport).

The future of Airports in ireland

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