Me Against The World...

BTH

Eventually got back on the wagon on Friday. Out for a 12.5km run after work.

Saturday morning 20k in the park. Really struggling, but lifted the pace a little for the last 5km (only up to 4:30 pace so not exactly fast).

Sunday Easy 6k, and I also headed out for an easy 40k on the bike.

Racing the Longford half on Sunday. Well trained and in good form I reckon I should be able for close to 1:20. However, I am neither of those things right now and I reckon I'll struggle to break the 1:25 that McMillan believes I would need to target a 3hour marathon. Since the HIM in Westmeath I've only ran further than 20k twice. Twice in more than three months. Its going to be a big ask to race that distance. But at least this time I dont have a swim and bike warm up!

BTH

17km last night with 2*2km at marathon pace and 2*2km at half marathon pace. This actually went better than expected. The marathon pace felt comfortable, but not too comfortable, while I did the half pace a little too quick, but it wasn't too bad. HR still a little too high for the pace but its coming back to normal. Saturday it was off the wall! Feeling a little strain on the arch of my right foot. Nothing to get too worried about though, and I wasn't planning on running today anyway. Probably a combination of doing 6k in vibrams on Sunday (only second run in them), and running 4 days in a row after 5 days of doing nothing, and covering about 57km in those 4 days, more than I've ever covered in one week.

BTH

Swimming. Ha, yeah, so, swimming. Right, so I took the day off from running yesterday, and I gave this swimming lark a bash. Not much work done, and minimal effort. Lots of breathing to both sides (its much easier with a pull buoy!!), a little bit of one arm work. Tried two tumble turns. Quite clearly doing something drastically wrong, so didn't try any more for fear of crashing into someone else in my lane, or popping up in the wrong lane after. Anyone have any handy guide for getting it right?? I'm a little hopeless!!

Dory Dory

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Swimming. Ha, yeah, so, swimming. Right, so I took the day off from running yesterday, and I gave this swimming lark a bash. Not much work done, and minimal effort. Lots of breathing to both sides (its much easier with a pull buoy!!), a little bit of one arm work. Tried two tumble turns. Quite clearly doing something drastically wrong, so didn't try any more for fear of crashing into someone else in my lane, or popping up in the wrong lane after. Anyone have any handy guide for getting it right?? I'm a little hopeless!!

I think I'd sign up for some private lessons with the master himself, Sir Interested.

interested

so the tri season finishes and you start on learning to tumble turn ? what next ? MTBiking ???

If I was teaching someone to tumble ... <and there are many ways> - found the sequence of 1-5 vids - which are top notch imho

a) stand in shallow end of pool - and do forward rolls, as in roll up into a ball, head down and use your arms / hands to get you spinning (stay in a ball)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFQpLyihI5M
'noodle' == 'woggle' - alot of pools have these - if they don't just give it a go anyhow.


b) once a) is comfortable - move an arm + half from wall and do a tumble - when feet are where head was stretch feet (legs should extend and feet should feel wall) then push off on your back. This is a slight extension of a) - try not to get too close as it'll hurt your heels (esp on deck level pool) and ensure you're close enough (other wise you'll extend the legs, the feet won't push off anything) but you can swim off in the correct direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=s7oz7HZrp4w&NR=1
(some stuff in here is good for turning in general and not just tumble turns ... as in fly, or breastroke or from bc to breastroke in IM)

And now we're rocking - the use of two pull buoys to eliminate the arms is a great idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHXNBbLFiJs&feature=relmfu

c) once you're comfortable with b) when the feet touch the wall pivot off a foot so that when you push off you're not staring at the ceiling but the pool floor.

steps 4 and 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=KNQh2SqA2Ck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss6-htcF9mA


Water up the nose ? gently blow out through the nose during a), b) or c)
Also, its sensible to try these antics when noone else is in the lane since it's one sure fire way to get yourself swum into and/or sworn at.
'Streamline' position ... absolutely critical when the turn is mastered but don't sweat about it immediately.

I would like to be there when BTH does these drills as it'll be an absolute hoot

BTH

Cheers for that Mark. Very useful stuff actually. Any chance of getting a lane to myself tomorrow eve to try those drills out?! Perfect for the pool in Spain anyway as swimming lengths just ain't an option.

13km run this evening including some hill reps. Bumped into a mate I haven't seen in ages in the park and ran a couple of k with him. To say his life has changed since I last saw him (last sept I think) would be a bit of an understatement. some things you just don't see coming.

interested

we'll see what numbers are like and how you guys get on at the 100's fly

BTH

interested wrote: »

we'll see what numbers are like and how you guys get on at the 100's fly

100s fly?? Sweet....



:eek:

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

interested wrote: »

we'll see what numbers are like and how you guys get on at the 100's fly

No recovery in between 100s i assume.;)

interested

Margaret Important Cupcake wrote: »

No recovery in between 100s i assume.;)

well, whilst climbing out and running to next lane before diving in should provide more than enough rest.

BTH

Thankfully no jumping out of lanes and into the next at swimming last night. No 100s fly either but by the end I probably looked like I was doing fly!! Also no tumble turning practice which was disappointing!

Longish WU then 4 sets of 5*100 descending. First two off 2:00 second two off 1:50 as Interested obviously didn't think we were in enough pain. I led out the first 3 sets, and got the pacing spot on, bringing the last reps in on 1:27/26/26. Handed over the lead for the last set to another guy and he f*cked up the repeat times thanks to Interested confusing him. He's just a big (short) hairy bully!! Anyway, fairly sure my last rep was a similar time to the others, but I couldnt make out the clock at that stage. I was more concerned about the 3 litres of water in my lungs.

So great prep for my next big swim race in, eh, 9 months time...........

interested

^^^
I started reading this but had to stop, the tears ... it's just so unfair, I never realised ... I never meant to ...

... p!ss myself laughing at you coughing up a lung full of water remember: never hydrate whilst swimming. Simples.

We'll do tumbles, diving, play-time when you get back from holidays and the rest of the kids are there.

BTH

So, I've just asked Michelle of she'd heard the big news of the day.

"Yeah, I know, I thought she was a classy girl, seems not"

Wait, What?!? Who??

"Katherine Jenkins"

Oh. Dear. God.

interested

I got a call this morning at work around 8am from home about the news - along time ago, on a holiday, someone ran out of books and started on 'From Lance to Landis' after I'd read it

BTH

interested wrote: »

I got a call this morning at work around 8am from home about the news - along time ago, on a holiday, someone ran out of books and started on 'From Lance to Landis' after I'd read it

Once I told her what had happened she was shocked to be fair. She'd have a little idea of whats going on (hard for her not to with me around!!), but it just goes to show the bubble shes in when at work. I'm always surprised with how little she knows about whats in the news everyday.

Training....
Had intended on running after swimming on Thursday but I was shattered. Instead set the alarm early on Friday, but woke with a very raw mouth/throat so decided against it. Knew I wouldn't get out in the evening with travelling back to Longford.

Saturday morning an easy 6k with some strides. The rest of the day was spend sneezing. I never get hayfever, but I got it bad on Saturday. Really wasn't in the mood for the race at this stage. Had intended on stretching and some proper prep, but the constant dripping "tap" on my face meant that I was lying down most of the day as standing up/sitting was only making things worse.

BTH

Sunday morning was the local Marathon day, with a half, full and ultra. Registration and food was taking place in my old secondary school, the course taking in roads I've cycled and ran a number of times, yet I've never actually run the race before. So I righted that wrong yesterday. Parked up in town beside Linda Byrne, her other half and her coach. One of four olympians present, but only one was taking part (Pauline Curley). On the startline I was chatting to a few locals I know, school colleagues etc. Most of whom I couldn't remember names for!! Also spotted Menoscemo through the crowd and nodded at him too. Just before the start I noticed I was standing beside a guy who I had run the first half of the 10k in March with. He had finished only a couple of places behind me that day (although he couldn't even remember the race!!!), but was running the marathon today. Thankfully. Turns out he ran 2:48 and finished third :eek:!! His marathon pace was faster than my half marathon pace. Shows how much of a drop off I have in my running when the distance cranks up.

Anyway, my race. I set out conservatively enough, making sure not to hammer off at the start like I would in a Tri. Caught up on Meno shortly at about 3k, just after the half and full courses split, and he was telling me that a girl he had traveled with was going to win. I think he was worried that she wasn't too far behind either!! I pushed on from him to catch the group ahead, but made slow progress at it. Went through the first 5k in 19:56. So moving well early on and on target for under 1:25. Watch started beeping a lot then, first warning that I was running out of memory (you and me both watch), and then to say my foot-pod battery was dying (you and me.....). Maintained that pace for a further 3km or so before things started to slow up. Second 5km was 20:14 so still fairly consistent. This was when I started to suffer. At about 12k there was a water station so I took my gel there and slowed a little to take on water. But it did very little and I was suffering badly. Pace had slowed and I covered the third 5k in 21:07. There was a couple of drags on this section but nothing too difficult, but I was struggling mentally as well a physically. Slowed again almost to a standstill at 18km or thereabouts to take on more water. I was running on empty and even my arms and shoulders were hurting at this stage. All I was thinking was, I really don't like running, and how the hell am I going to run a marathon at a decent pace. Covered the fourth 5km in 20:51 which was a good bit hillier, so actually surprised this was faster than the previous one. Maybe it was because I knew Meno was closing in again. I wasn't paying much attention to how much I'd covered, or my likely finish time so when I saw the timing car with what I figured to be about a mile remaining, and the time still read 1:19, I though maybe this sub 1:25 is still on. So I lifted the pace for the remainder, even catching a guy about 200m from the line, but the 1:24:xx was but a dream and I finished in 1:25:47, disappointed sore and unsure where to go from here.

Meno followed shortly after and we both cheered on his travel partner, miss Claralara, as she won with a very impressive time and a huge PB. Also had a quick chat with Vegas bound Dessie Duffy who ran an impressive 1:33 after cycling down from Monaghan, and still heavy legged from Galeforce last week. He'll go well out in sin city. Hung around with Meno and Digger while Claralara fulfilled her media commitments following her massive win. Make sure to pick up a copy of the Fit mag on Thursday!! It was nice to meet both CL and Digger for the first time, and I'd feel a bit lonely if Meno wasn't there for any half marathon attempt (he also ran in my only other half last summer).

Pros: 4 minutes knocked off my PB. Done on a particularly warm day with limited specific training and a week off from training only 10 days ago. I've mentioned recently that I've only broken 20k on a run twice since 12th May. Yesterday was the third.

Cons: It wasn't what I wanted. My friend coming third in the full marathon proved to me that I'm way off when it comes to these longer distances. Obviously his training is completely different to mine as we've got completely different targets so I wouldn't expect to be matching him, but my drop off in pace is worrying. And I didn't enjoy it. There was nothing enjoyable about that race yesterday. I don't like running....


Where to from here. I have a lot of work to do on weekly mileage. The week ended yesterday was my largest run week ever. 59.42km. Thats less than 37miles. You can forget about doing a marathon on that kind of mileage. 30days in September, and I'm out of the country for 21 of them, working for 7 and at a wedding for another. So its going to be extremely difficult to bring up my training to the level required to even consider attempting 2:59:59 in Dublin, and with my dramatic drop off in pace over the distances I'm wondering if I'm foolish to even try. My reasoning for doing Dublin was to improve my running for next season. Watching guys go flying past me in the last 4k at Caroline Kearney moving me from 5th down to 9th shows me that I have a lot of room for improvement here. I look like a runner and there is natural speed there. But very seldom do I feel like I've ran well. 10k in March, Triathlone sprint and maybe Hook or by Crook are the only runs I would consider myself happy with this year. Part of me is wondering whether the marathon is a good idea this year or not. Maybe do the marathon training and not race, targeting a half in Nov/Dec instead looking to bring that down closer to an equivalent performance to my 10k pb. This would mean minimal interference with biking and swimming (which still needs a lot of focus this winter). Or train for a sub 3 marathon, but run a much softer target like 3:15 and just enjoy the run, which again shouldn't require as long a recovery period. Or do I look at yesterday, the lack of prep, the warm day, the isolation on the course (I ran solo throughout) and think that on a cooler day (guaranteed in DCM!!!), larger crowds both supporting and competing, and some nice warm weather training behind me and this might still be on, or a least go looking for a 3:05? What would serve me best, with London 14/15 September 2013 being the main objective.

I really don't know...

RacoonQueen

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Just before the start I noticed I was standing beside a guy who I had run the first half of the 10k in March with. He had finished only a couple of places behind me that day (although he couldn't even remember the race!!!), but was running the marathon today. Thankfully. Turns out he ran 2:48 and finished third :eek:!! His marathon pace was faster than my half marathon pace. Shows how much of a drop off I have in my running when the distance cranks up.

If it helps, thats probably his 5th or 6th(could be more) marathon since April.

Edit: I'd continue with the marathon training, or with trying to train for it. Registration is open until the start of October(usually) by the time registration comes around you'll be through September and you'll know whether or not you've got the work done.

BTH

RacoonQueen wrote: »

If it helps, thats probably his 5th or 6th(could be more) marathon since April.

What :eek:

Why would someone do such a thing?? I wonder if thats the guy Meno was telling me about after the race?

And it doesn't really help. While I know is has its limitations, McMillan also tells me the drop off in my pace is far too large.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Commit to a 4 week block of run focus training and re evaluate DCM then.
I would say the only thing going against you now is stamina and endurance over the longer stuff but you could surprise yourself once you get a few long runs in the legs.

RacoonQueen

The guys who finished 2nd and 4th in the marathon do their fair share as well. There were a few of the 100 marathon club in attendance as well.

menoscemo

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

What :eek:

Why would someone do such a thing?? I wonder if thats the guy Meno was telling me about after the race?

And it doesn't really help. While I know is has its limitations, McMillan also tells me the drop off in my pace is far too large.

That's not the guy I was talking about Peter Mooney who came 2nd in 2:45. I'd say it was his 10th (or more) marathon this year and he always finishes around 2:40ish.

Regards the endurance stuff, yeah I am afraid in my experience the only solution is miles, miles miles (or in your case KM's). For years I was like you in that my shorter times were in no way in line with my longer times (a big drop off as the distance grew), but now yesterdays HM time was a Mcmillan PB across all distances. I think your 10k PB is 4 or 5 minutes faster than me :eek:

I'd go with JB's advice and commit to a block of running training and that should bring you on a lot. I know that will affect the swim/bike training so you have to evaluate if it's worth it for yourself.

FWIW I reckon you would still be able to jog around DCM in 3:15ish with no change in training but with a block of Running for a month or so and plenty of long runs you should be well able to get under 3:10 and closer to 3.

claralara

Well done again yesterday - great race and report.

Was lovely to meet you and get the guided tour of the old digs - staged maths classes and all!

My report is en route. Not half demanding are you?!

BTH

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Edit: I'd continue with the marathon training, or with trying to train for it. Registration is open until the start of October(usually) by the time registration comes around you'll be through September and you'll know whether or not you've got the work done.

Margaret Important Cupcake wrote: »

Commit to a 4 week block of run focus training and re evaluate DCM then.
I would say the only thing going against you now is stamina and endurance over the longer stuff but you could surprise yourself once you get a few long runs in the legs.

menoscemo wrote: »

Regards the endurance stuff, yeah I am afraid in my experience the only solution is miles, miles miles (or in your case KM's). For years I was like you in that my shorter times were in no way in line with my longer times (a big drop off as the distance grew), but now yesterdays HM time was a Mcmillan PB across all distances. I think your 10k PB is 4 or 5 minutes faster than me :eek:

I'd go with JB's advice and commit to a block of running training and that should bring you on a lot. I know that will affect the swim/bike training so you have to evaluate if it's worth it for yourself.

FWIW I reckon you would still be able to jog around DCM in 3:15ish with no change in training but with a block of Running for a month or so and plenty of long runs you should be well able to get under 3:10 and closer to 3.

Lots of good advice guys. Thanks all. The plan for September was always to focus on running. There'll be little to no biking or swimming done. Sure how could you do a swim session in this?? :D:pac:

See JB, even a shallow pool for you!! :P

I'll have to increase my weekly mileage, and probably my long run also, by more that the recommended 10% per week to get in any kind of shape to do myself justice. Normally I wouldn't see a massive problem with that if I'm easing back on the other two. My biggest problem is temperatures in Bilbao next week will be 26-32deg, and the following week in Alicante won't be much better. Most of you have met me, and those who haven't can probably guess my skin tone from reading Interesteds comments on this log. Needless to say, I'm not great with the sun. I'm also supposed to be helping organise this wedding :rolleyes:. But I'd do my best while away (I think the traditional Spanish siesta will help!) and re-assess before the DCM closing date.

Meno, that McMillan fella reckons I should be able to run 1:20:40 for the half based on my 10k pb. That will give you an idea of the drop off I have in the longer distances.

claralara wrote: »

Well done again yesterday - great race and report.

Was lovely to meet you and get the guided tour of the old digs - staged maths classes and all!

My report is en route. Not half demanding are you?!

The worst part is thinking about how long ago its been since I left those digs.

At this rate there's going to be 10 pages of congratulations before any report turns up.

RacoonQueen

I don't think the 10% rule really matters here anyway. It's really a thing for novices who don't know how to read the signals their bodies are sending them. You have all the fitness and endurance already, if your skinny legs can handle it you'd likely be able to ramp up the mileage quite dramatically. Lots of runners could go from weeks of 30 mile weeks to 50 - 60 mile weeks. Thats roughly 50 - 85k for you...

Fazz

I'm not a coach but I don't see the value in doing a marathon for the sake of it.
If its a goal and objective then absolutely, but if not there's nothing to be gained considering your focus going forward remains in short course and for London 2013 - presume Sprint and/or Olympic.


Last year was my first year of tri training, and I threw a marathon in there to finish off - objective being complete my first marathon and try for a sub 3.

Coming off the bike in my last Tri race didn't help and put a 3 week rest and non running prep just 2 months out.

Got over this and carried on, not ideal prep but still wanted to give it a shot.

So along came race day, I set off with that 3:00 balloon and all was Rosey up to half way when I dropped off the pace.

Proceeded to blow up at 30k, walked a bit, suffered, etc and finished at a reasonable rate once recovered for a 3:20.

Result and effect:
- completed my first marathon
- realised how hard they are
- took a while to recover properly
- will exacerbate any tweaks
- no extra speed gained or value for short course IMO


So if you want to complete your first marathon as I did, then go for it.

If you want to do more running and try help towards next year's base/speed/strength, then I don't see the value.
Surely you'd be better off doing hill reps, speed work, strength work as well as some endurance but no long runs at lsr or pmp etc.

Another option is take your break early?
However if goal race is september next year then granted it would be a long season to wait...

Either way I wouldn't go in half arsed.
If you want to complete your first marathon then say it and go for it.

Your half of 1:25 is almost bang on for a sub 3 marathon so that appears very much a realistic goal.
I certainly enjoyed the marathon, and it was a nice box to tick but I think it does not translate as much towards short course speed/performance.


Either go for a sub 3, or plan road towards London differently without a marathon in agenda.

If you do the marathon, is plan then to break for a few weeks in Nov and kick back in then?
In that sense it may suit your calendar alright.

BTH

Fazz wrote: »

I'm not a coach but I don't see the value in doing a marathon for the sake of it.
If its a goal and objective then absolutely, but if not there's nothing to be gained considering your focus going forward remains in short course and for London 2013 - presume Sprint and/or Olympic.


Last year was my first year of tri training, and I threw a marathon in there to finish off - objective being complete my first marathon and try for a sub 3.

Coming off the bike in my last Tri race didn't help and put a 3 week rest and non running prep just 2 months out.

Got over this and carried on, not ideal prep but still wanted to give it a shot.

So along came race day, I set off with that 3:00 balloon and all was Rosey up to half way when I dropped off the pace.

Proceeded to blow up at 30k, walked a bit, suffered, etc and finished at a reasonable rate once recovered for a 3:20.

Result and effect:
- completed my first marathon
- realised how hard they are
- took a while to recover properly
- will exacerbate any tweaks
- no extra speed gained or value for short course IMO


So if you want to complete your first marathon as I did, then go for it.

If you want to do more running and try help towards next year's base/speed/strength, then I don't see the value.
Surely you'd be better off doing hill reps, speed work, strength work as well as some endurance but no long runs at lsr or pmp etc.

Another option is take your break early?
However if goal race is september next year then granted it would be a long season to wait...

Either way I wouldn't go in half arsed.
If you want to complete your first marathon then say it and go for it.

Your half of 1:25 is almost bang on for a sub 3 marathon so that appears very much a realistic goal.
I certainly enjoyed the marathon, and it was a nice box to tick but I think it does not translate as much towards short course speed/performance.


Either go for a sub 3, or plan road towards London differently without a marathon in agenda.

If you do the marathon, is plan then to break for a few weeks in Nov and kick back in then?
In that sense it may suit your calendar alright.

Cheers Fazz. The marathon is obviously a serious target, or I wouldn't have ended my tri season as early as I did. I just fear that I won't get the work done in time to do myself justice. As you say, with the target race at the end of next season I have plenty of time to take a proper break after the marathon anyway. I'll train for the marathon during my holidays and see where we stand when I'm back.

BTH

Monday
Very easy 6+km recovery run. Sore. Very sore, and I was glad when this was finished.

Tuesday
Still stiff and sore, but no time for self pity. Easy 2k jog, then some strides and drills just to loosen out, before a progressive 10k. Started at 4:40 pace, and progressed from there. The last two km were actually faster than my average pace on Sunday. Really enjoy running along the Royal Canal. Croke park out as far as the Phoenix Park train station and back. Lovely running and a tarmac surface the whole way which is much more forgiving than concrete footpaths. The KM's seem to tick by much quicker too. It'll be a different story running along there once the evenings are dark though!! Anyway, 15+km once I was home again. My legs are heavy and I feel wrecked. It took me ages to get going during this. Similar distance planned for this evening, and I'll no doubt take a while to get going during that too. How do you runners do it without some swimming and biking to ease the pain?

BTH

Wednesday
16km last night with 5*2km @ marathon pace with 1min easy recoveries. Would have liked to do the 8-10km@MP straight through, but calves and achilles are a little tender so decided against. Legs still heavy sore and stiff, but no run today and an easy run only tomorrow so that should help.

Anyone fancy a 25k(15miles) at 6:30 on Saturday morning??

menoscemo

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

How do you runners do it without some swimming and biking to ease the pain?

Simple answer, easy/recovery runs every day. I have done no quality work since sunday, legs are just coming back to normal now. I'll be doing my first quality session since the half on Saturday.

Fair play for getting 2 quality run sessions in already :eek:

BTH

menoscemo wrote: »

Simple answer, easy/recovery runs every day. I have done no quality work since sunday, legs are just coming back to normal now. I'll be doing my first quality session since the half on Saturday.

Fair play for getting 2 quality run sessions in already :eek:

I have some catching up to do, and I knew Thursday and Friday wouldn't suit to get a proper session in so had to do Tues and Wed. Hopefully I won't have to do back to back days like that again.

Thursday Eve
Swim session with the club
12*25 on 0:30 descending 1-4,5-8,9-12
16*50 on 0:50 descending 1-4 etc
12*100 on 1:50 descending 1-4 etc
Sat in for the first two sets but led out the 100s. Faster 100s on 1:29/30.
2800m total. Wrecked

Friday Morning
Easy 9km. Right ankle a little sore, but nothing to worry about I reckon. Ran mostly on grass, out along Clontarf which should help