How much should I be charged?

DGOBS

It's a simple as this, for 250 or whatever the charge is, your not getting what is required to restore the system, period!

For a PROPER power flush, the system should be per-treated, at leat a week in advance, the once flushed through on the day the use a flushing chemicals (dependent on the contamination level and type) is required. On completion of the flush the waters ph and tds need to be checked, then once refilled inhibitors (and my preference is to add a silencer as well) should be added.

At 200 it is not possible, I would be getting at best €80 - €120 in total for the first initial visit (where the problem is diagnosed, and pretreatment occurs) and the full 8 hours it takes to properly carry out the work, and it does take that amount of time (I usually service the boiler included)

Take from this my overheads fuel/insurance/equipment/training/registration etc etc ect...then pay the vat man and the tax man, I would be better on the dole!

Simple, you get what you pay for!
If I flush a system I expect it to be a once of requirement for the householder, too many times have I went to a call where 1-2 years after a flush and heat exchanger change only to find the customer needs it all redone as the system is as bad as it had been before a shoddy flush was performed!

Marcanthony

DGOBS wrote: »

It's a simple as this, for 250 or whatever the charge is, your not getting what is required to restore the system, period!

For a PROPER power flush, the system should be per-treated, at leat a week in advance, the once flushed through on the day the use a flushing chemicals (dependent on the contamination level and type) is required. On completion of the flush the waters ph and tds need to be checked, then once refilled inhibitors (and my preference is to add a silencer as well) should be added.

At 200 it is not possible, I would be getting at best €80 - €120 in total for the first initial visit (where the problem is diagnosed, and pretreatment occurs) and the full 8 hours it takes to properly carry out the work, and it does take that amount of time (I usually service the boiler included)

Take from this my overheads fuel/insurance/equipment/training/registration etc etc ect...then pay the vat man and the tax man, I would be better on the dole!

Simple, you get what you pay for!
If I flush a system I expect it to be a once of requirement for the householder, too many times have I went to a call where 1-2 years after a flush and heat exchanger change only to find the customer needs it all redone as the system is as bad as it had been before a shoddy flush was performed!

I agree with your scope of works and costings. How many plumbers go to the client with a scope of works and costings like above.
Excluding the boiler as an additional extra if its required and materials as an additional extra .Your scope above for labour is

Assessment call €80- €120.00 @40 euro per hour
8 hours for repairs €320.00 @40 euro per hour.
Total Labour between €400 and €440.00

Thats the point I made originally.A decent honest days work will reflect the bill.Deduct your overheads.Its a decent earner.

I have seen and heard of lads charging upto 1200 euro to cleanse a system. How could you Justify that.

Billy Bunting

I think this is going to be one of those topics that we'll all have agree to disagree on, my opinion is Power flushing is simply the latest money generating tool available to plumbers, (I have heard all the chat amoungst to lads on the training courses) they are very handy when you have need for them but IMO quite un-necessary in most cases, what in heavens name did you guys do before they came along.
My non vat registered mate may well not charge vat but he does indeed issue invoices, he is braking no law, to brand him as a dodgie installer just because he can do a job far cheaper than you guys really is low, some may think your clutching at straws here in an attempt to prove your point about your fee. I am more than happy with the work my mate has done for me and believe me if I wasn’t he would know about it.

Peace and Love :P

Billy Bunting

Billy Bunting wrote: »

my opinion is Power flushing is simply the latest money generating tool available to plumbers,

Power flushing works, and it would be lovely if all systems were checked before a boiler chop to see if a flush is required.

Billy Bunting wrote: »

(I have heard all the chat amoungst to lads on the training courses)

be careful who you listen to on those courses;) they told me stabilisation was 5 minutes.

Billy Bunting wrote: »

they are very handy when you have need for them but IMO quite un-necessary in most cases, what in heavens name did you guys do before they came along.

I find sludge is common place and am getting pretty pissed of at telling householders their warrantys are null and void:mad: i would be more than happy to see more flushing as heating systems have had very little love over the years leaking AAV's, blow offs, expansion vessel etc, etc....

Contamination in a system is becoming more of a issue now as modern boilers are monitoring the DeltaT and shutting down boilers with circulation issues, also as there are more plastics on modern boilers power flushing can be a good way of confirming the system water is clean before adding inhibitor, if you add inhibitor to dirty water you can get system water that will attack plastics and affect the ability of o-rings to hold water.

GASMANN

Marcanthony wrote: »

Thats a decent honest lad that will not be effected by the recession.
Anybody charging anymore than 400 ( even allowing for company Over heads ect) should be on the mug shot part of crimeline.

Marcanthony wrote: »

I agree with your scope of works and costings. How many plumbers go to the client with a scope of works and costings like above.
Excluding the boiler as an additional extra if its required and materials as an additional extra .Your scope above for labour is

Assessment call €80- €120.00 @40 euro per hour
8 hours for repairs €320.00 @40 euro per hour.
Total Labour between €400 and €440.00

Thats the point I made originally.A decent honest days work will reflect the bill.Deduct your overheads.Its a decent earner.

I have seen and heard of lads charging upto 1200 euro to cleanse a system. How could you Justify that.

so in conclusion, is €440 now acceptable and not a reason to be shown on crimeline ?

GASMANN

Marcanthony wrote: »

Things must be still a bit yellow in your nappy .Sorry bathroom part of your business.:mad:
Let me tell you a little about business.
You dont have to be vat registered to be a decent lad. We contract a lot of business to sole traders not vat registered. Who are honest and decent and return their taxs. :P
THINK BEFORE YOUR FINGERS TYPE:o

Marcanthony wrote: »

Then why did you not say it:rolleyes:or even type it:D

Marcanthony wrote: »

I agree with your scope of works and costings. How many plumbers go to the client with a scope of works and costings like above.
Excluding the boiler as an additional extra if its required and materials as an additional extra .Your scope above for labour is

Assessment call €80- €120.00 @40 euro per hour
8 hours for repairs €320.00 @40 euro per hour.
Total Labour between €400 and €440.00

Thats the point I made originally.A decent honest days work will reflect the bill.Deduct your overheads.Its a decent earner.

I have seen and heard of lads charging upto 1200 euro to cleanse a system. How could you Justify that.

Marcanthony wrote: »

Ask the lad to send you his self assessment and post it in the accounts forum.:mad:
its still a decent price add on the vat @13.5% if your vat registered.Problem solved.;)

i dont get the yellow nappy line, but if i upset you of a sunday i didnt mean too xxx

Marcanthony

GASMANN wrote: »

so in conclusion, is €440 now acceptable and not a reason to be shown on crimeline ?

There is a lot more scope in that lads costings than billys mate provided
in his service. So will you read the posts before you comment.

Again I will say for the service billys mate ptovided anything charged over 400 euro should be named and shamed.boom is over.However that does not seem to be in the power flush industry. I might set up a company doing this and set a set charge at 300 euro (8 rads). quantity and quality is better than robbery.I guarantee you it would be profitable.;)

GASMANN

Marcanthony wrote: »

There is a lot more scope in that lads costings than billys mate provided
in his service. So will you read the posts before you comment.

Again I will say for the service billys mate ptovided anything charged over 400 euro should be named and shamed.Recession is over.However does not seem to be in the power flush industry. I might set up a company doing this and set a set charge at 300 euro (8 rads). quantity and quality is better than robbery.I guarantee you it would be profitable.;)

best of luck with the new venture, it wont be profitable though

DoneDL

There seems to be a train of thought in plumbing that power flushing is a cure all for heating problems, it`s not. It is a requirement by manufacturers for new installs but most manufacturers will look for a reason other than the fact that their boiler is a poor design to begin with. Anyone that has worked in plumbing for any amount of time will come across older systems that have minimal corrosion and new systems that are full of crap. Anyone who suggests a 400 euro clean out on a system other than investigating the cause of the problem is in the wrong trade.

Marcanthony

DoneDL wrote: »

There seems to be a train of thought in plumbing that power flushing is a cure all for heating problems, it`s not. It is a requirement by manufacturers for new installs but most manufacturers will look for a reason other than the fact that their boiler is a poor design to begin with. Anyone that has worked in plumbing for any amount of time will come across older systems that have minimal corrosion and new systems that are full of crap. Anyone who suggests a 400 euro clean out on a system other than investigating the cause of the problem is in the wrong trade.

I served my time as a plumber and worked as a plumber to fund my education to the next level. I assess properties on a regular basis in relation to corrosion ect. if the scope is above cleansing. Your now gone past that scope and mitigation.So obviously that would cost more.If you cant understand logic. You should not even comment.However I agree with your point about the manufaturer.

Marcanthony

DoneDL wrote: »

Anyone who suggests a 400 euro clean out on a system other than investigating the cause of the problem is in the wrong trade.

Anybody who needs a professional assement free of charge with no obligation . Can contact myself .I will also provide a free consultation on completion of assessment.

Merch

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Why are you wanting to POWERFLUSH your system when it doesnt need it, flush it if desired, use a cleanser, but you have no signs of needing a powerflush.

I planned replacing the bathroom rad with a towel dryer/rad anyway before it started leaking and because of the slight surface rust along the bottom edge, as this would be done I considered it no harm to clean/drain the system and refill with an inhibitor.
I dont have the cash to pay someone the figures mentioned so if I could hire equipment I'd go that route, I'll probably stick some cleaning chemical in and drain a week (or according to instructions) the system after and flush it out a few times/refill using inhibitor.
My only concern is that allowing the heating system to pump around the cleaning chemicals might dislodge something that otherwise would not.

DGOBS

@Gary, 5min stabization is given in training as IS813 doesn't give a time, only states test time after stabilization has occurred, 5 minute was decided at some point between the training bodies and the accreditation bodies, RGII seem to think differently, some as 5minutes, some say 2, some say 1.......! And the standard says nothing?
Yet another make it up as you go along gas test!

Marcanthony

GASMANN wrote: »

best of luck with the new venture, it wont be profitable though

If 2 properties of 8 rads can be flushed in 3 days at a labour cost of 800 euro. That works out in excess of 265 per day. Thats a good profit if you have the Quantity.Thats 1300 per week per man providing the service.I think I could cut a profit per man employed and trained. Once I had the quantity.I Still think your a bit wet behind the ears.

DoneDL

DoneDL wrote: »

most manufacturers will look for a reason other than the fact that their boiler is a poor design to begin with

How dare you,:eek: I don't need to lie, it is what it is, if the problem is your end you'll be told, if the problem is my end you'll be told, the idea of it being a manufactures conspiracy on the oppressed gas fitter is a new one on me, if you feel you're being hoodwinked then change your boiler choice;)
I find it's something simpler, a lot of installer don't flush their installs properly:rolleyes:
Some of the problems I come across more often than I should are leaking AAR, leaking blow offs, split membranes in expansion vessels, blocked heat exchangers, stuck pumps and there is no excuses in this day and age to leave a dirty system, how many installers explain the importance of keeping the inhibitor level topped up, come to think about why do some installer not show how to fill a system or what the knobs do but that's another discussion:)

I will give any installer a free pass the first time round, but you'll get no love from me if you don't listen.

DoneDL wrote: »

other than investigating the cause of the problem is in the wrong trade.

How long are you going to spend fault finding a dirty system? You can deal with the usual suspects but that should be part of a system update anyway.

The quality of the water determines the outcome, but even with low levels of contamination I advise power flushing:eek:, this is because of the impact dirty water mixed with inhibiter can have on a newly installed boiler.

This ain't rocket science, it's about cleaning a system and keeping it clean, there is a lot of bad habits among some installers here and given a choice I'd rather see a OCD approach to system cleaning than some of what i'v seen so far.

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

@Gary, 5min stabization is given in training as IS813 doesn't give a time, only states test time after stabilization has occurred, 5 minute was decided at some point between the training bodies and the accreditation bodies, RGII seem to think differently, some as 5minutes, some say 2, some say 1.......! And the standard says nothing?
Yet another make it up as you go along gas test!

What that in your mouth, O yer, it a hook and I just landed you:D
But its ok Tony, i'v moved on now, I'm been so confused with the regs i'v gone back to the naked flame approach so much easier to remember:cool:

Marcanthony

gary71 wrote: »

How dare you,:eek: I don't need to lie, it is what it is, if the problem is your Some of the problems I come across more often than I should are leaking AAR, leaking blow offs, split membranes in expansion vessels.



How long are you going to spend fault finding a dirty system? You can deal with the usual suspects but that should be part of a system update anyway.

The quality of the water determines the outcome, but even with low levels of contamination I advise power flushing:eek:, this is because of the impact dirty water mixed with inhibiter can have on a newly installed boiler.

.

Gary have to agree the main suspects of water damage I see on a regular basis is the automatic air vents and the expansion vessells and a lot of damage also caused from systems not been either completed proper or maintained.

Marcanthony

Marcanthony wrote: »

I agree with your point about the manufaturer.

A manufacture ask for a few simple things, standing pressure, working pressure, mains pressure, clean system water etc... If It's not done this can cause a boiler issue, how is it the fault of the manufacture? I am responsible for one manufactures service network and i'v help out a few other manufactures with political jobs and often the boiler is blamed because it's easier then the installer having the balls to admit he was possibly responsible:eek: and I'm always happy to admit if it's a boiler fault because everyone can spot a bull****ter;) and I find honesty is the best policy.

Marcanthony

gary71 wrote: »

A manufacture ask for a few simple things, standing pressure, working pressure, mains pressure, clean system water etc... If It's not done this can cause a boiler issue, how is it the fault of the manufacture? I am responsible for one manufactures service network and i'v help out a few other manufactures with political jobs and often the boiler is blamed because it's easier then the installer having the balls to admit he was possibly responsible:eek: and I'm always happy to admit if it's a boiler fault because everyone can spot a bull****ter;) and I find honesty is the best policy.

Gary in some circumstances the manufacturer will not admit liabilty. I have seen this first hand.One that comes to mind is a boiler you will probably recall had the aav clipped into place inside the boiler casing.

However I am a great beliver if you are trained and have the abilty.If a fault occurs on your behalf. You should be man enough to admit and rectify the situation. However there is something called incompetence.

My boilers come with a very fine filter on the return, any blockage on this filter slows down the movement in the boiler, the boiler picks this up and shows a circulation fault code, the usual onsite repair by some installers is to cut out the filter leaving open a route to the heat exchanger, some months later I get called in because the boiler is dead, the conversation starts with me being told "your boiler is ****" and then ends with me explain that due to the level of contamination a new boiler is required, that's something I can't sort under warranty, I absolutely hate conversations like that:(

Marcanthony

Marcanthony wrote: »

Gary in some circumstances the manufacturer will not admit liabilty. .

Fair enough.

Marcanthony

gary71 wrote: »

My boilers come with a very fine filter on the return, any blockage on this filter slows down the movement in the boiler, the boiler picks this up and shows a circulation fault code, the usual onsite repair by some installers is to cut out the filter leaving open a route to the heat exchanger, some months later I get called in because the boiler is dead, the conversation starts with me being told "your boiler is ****" and then ends with me explain that due to the level of contamination a new boiler is required, that's something I can't sort under warranty, I absolutely hate conversations like that:(

We get called to see if boilers some relativly new can be claimed on their home Insurance and unfortunatley maintaince and bad workmanship is not covered with in the terms and conditions of the policy.

So I would recommend that all who employ the services of this profession. Get a copy of the installers insurance cover before commencement and If you get Gary (or manufacturers rep) unfortunatley telling you you need a new boiler. Ask him for a written report and then contact your local assessor and provide him/her with these documents.You will be reinstated for your loss.As your Assessor will determain with an independant. Wheter its the manufacturer or the installer at fault.

This will cut out the bulls***ters (installer or manufacturers and their agents) and give the homeowner peace of mind.

Went to a job last year, boiler fitted in the attic, heat exchanger blocked, as I'm a tart with a hart I exchanged the heat exchanger to get them going as they had a baby and it was cold, advised getting the installer back to flush system, installer said he wouldn't flush but he wanted €5,500 to re-pipe:eek:.

Marcanthony

gary71 wrote: »

Went to a job last year, boiler fitted in the attic, heat exchanger blocked, as I'm a tart with a hart I exchanged the heat exchanger to get them going as they had a baby and it was cold, advised getting the installer back to flush system, installer said he wouldn't flush but he wanted €5,500 to re-pipe:eek:.

Why did he need to repipe.im lostor is this about trying to get as much as poss out of the client.name and shame. its the only way forward.However probably cheaper than some are charging for a power flush.

Marcanthony

Marcanthony wrote: »

Why did he need to repipe.im lostor is this about trying to get as much as poss out of the client.name and shame. its the only way forward.However probably cheaper than some are charging for a power flush.

He fitted the boiler to a existing system but pretended to flush knowing there was a circulation issue, when the problems came to light and knowing what the problem was with the circulation he offered to re-pipe.

I flushed(€300), replaced the heat exchanger again and found a piping error effecting circulation to some rads downstairs.

Marcanthony

gary71 wrote: »

He fitted the boiler to a existing system but pretended to flush knowing there was a circulation issue, when the problems came to light and knowing what the problem was with the circulation he offered to re-pipe.

I flushed(€300), replaced the heat exchanger again and found a piping error effecting circulation to some rads downstairs.

Well I have to say thats honest and decent.So after charging for the power flush (a decent price) probably another couple of hundred to sort the circulation problem.The system is functioning.A long way of the unnessary 5500 euro.

You and a few others I know of. Are ambassadors for your trade. Cos I come across some hard cases on a regular basis and thats the truth.

Merch

gary71 wrote: »

My boilers come with a very fine filter on the return, any blockage on this filter slows down the movement in the boiler, the boiler picks this up and shows a circulation fault code, the usual onsite repair by some installers is to cut out the filter leaving open a route to the heat exchanger, some months later I get called in because the boiler is dead, the conversation starts with me being told "your boiler is ****" and then ends with me explain that due to the level of contamination a new boiler is required, that's something I can't sort under warranty, I absolutely hate conversations like that:(

The boilers you fit come with a filter on the return, factory fitted from the manufacturer? what is the make? does the filter have a bypass so the boiler can still operate or does it just shut down?

Merch

Merch wrote: »

The boilers you fit come with a filter on the return, factory fitted from the manufacturer? what is the make? does the filter have a bypass so the boiler can still operate or does it just shut down?

A lot of boilers have filters on the return to prevent solids from entering the boiler, there would be no bypass and normally you'd find a change in operation characteristics of the boiler if the filter became blocked, more modern boilers will give you a fault code to tell you the filter is blocked and shutdown if need be.
The difference with my boiler is the ease in removing the filter, so now crap installers who would just normally run from a problem feel able to put the problems off by cutting out the filter.

As for the make of the boiler, I like to keep that to myself;) incase one of the fruit loops I moan about has a smartphone and catches me bitching in a posts:o

quietsailor

gary71 wrote: »

A lot of boilers have filters on the return to prevent solids from entering the boiler, there would be no bypass and normally you'd find a change in operation characteristics of the boiler if the filter became blocked, more modern boilers will give you a fault code to tell you the filter is blocked and shutdown if need be.
The difference with my boiler is the ease in removing the filter, so now crap installers who would just normally run from a problem feel able to put the problems off by cutting out the filter.

As for the make of the boiler, I like to keep that to myself;) incase one of the fruit loops I moan about has a smartphone and catches me bitching in a posts:o

Could you tell me the mesh size of the filter please? I had to get a heat exchanger replaced last year on a Vokera boiler and even though the company spent a day powerflushing it when it was originally installed I'd like to talk to them about fitting a pre-filter on the return line that will have a Delta-Pres sensor on it so i can clean this and save the boiler. Is there a industry maximum
for particle size in domestic boilers?

JohnnieK

quietsailor wrote: »

Could you tell me the mesh size of the filter please? I had to get a heat exchanger replaced last year on a Vokera boiler and even though the company spent a day powerflushing it when it was originally installed I'd like to talk to them about fitting a pre-filter on the return line that will have a Delta-Pres sensor on it so i can clean this and save the boiler. Is there a industry maximum
for particle size in domestic boilers?

What you need is a Fernox TF1 filter.