How much should I be charged?

JohnnieK

I'm always amazed when I hear of fellas installing boilers in one day. I could never do it in one day, maybe I'm too slow:D:D:D:D. I always powerflush the system before installation for 2 reasons. 1. Manufacturers recommendations, and 2 most of the systems are in s i t e.

If your getting a new boiler in where I live you would be off your head not to get your system flushed. The water is c r a p and most of the houses (and a lot of them are only 6/7 years old) the water is as black as the ace of spades.

Just recently started doing work for a guy who has 29 houses around me. More than half the boilers have dripping safety valves (I've replaced them all) and the previous company's answer was to install auto fill valves:(. Great you might think but now the systems are corroded and blocking rads and the boiler filters have to be cleaned nearly every second month. He wont give me the go ahead to powerflush them so If he is happy to keep giving me call out fee's to unblock rads and filters then that's his business.

Merch

JohnnieK wrote: »

I'm always amazed when I hear of fellas installing boilers in one day. I could never do it in one day, maybe I'm too slow:D:D:D:D. I always powerflush the system before installation for 2 reasons. 1. Manufacturers recommendations, and 2 most of the systems are in s i t e.

If your getting a new boiler in where I live you would be off your head not to get your system flushed. The water is c r a p and most of the houses (and a lot of them are only 6/7 years old) the water is as black as the ace of spades.

Just recently started doing work for a guy who has 29 houses around me. More than half the boilers have dripping safety valves (I've replaced them all) and the previous company's answer was to install auto fill valves:(. Great you might think but now the systems are corroded and blocking rads and the boiler filters have to be cleaned nearly every second month. He wont give me the go ahead to powerflush them so If he is happy to keep giving me call out fee's to unblock rads and filters then that's his business.

What part are you in? how much do you charge to do a powerflush and how long does it take, I think my system needs bled and flushed, I'm not getting a new boiler but maybe a powerflush will help prolong the life of it a bit.
When you say the water is crap, do you mean the supply water? or the stuff already in the heating system.
I assume any corrosion is from the insides of the rads/maybe the boiler, the copper pipes wont have any build up that contributes to this?

orchidsrpretty

I posted the job on onlinetrademans,ie and got a few quotes; none near the prices I was quoted on the phone, its now a two day job as the guy has recommended doing the powerflush thing. Price all in : 400e so I am very happy with that:)

Merch

I was debating whether to post here as I didnt want to seem to be trying to take over, but glad I did now as I've picked up a bit of information I didnt have before, especially with your last post @ Orchidsrpretty, regarding onlinetradesmans.ie, I'm terrible for remembering these things so I'll know to check my boards history when I need it again.
I'm guessing at that price, 150-200 is flush and 200-250 is fit, it gives me a a ballpark figure to start with.

DGOBS

150-200 for a flush is a joke, my chemical costs would be roughly 100! You get what you pay for, and as was said here recently, a boiler is only as good as the water flowing through it

JohnnieK

I wouldn't flush a system for €200. That wouldn't cover my labour for the day:D. That if there is a back boiler on the system and the non-return valve needs to be bridged out and so on. It takes a day to flush a system of up to 10 rads, then what if the system airlocks. There is loads to take into account.

There's also a good few "colleges" on onlinetradesman.ie not charging VAT when pricing which means no invoice/receipt and maybe back up.

DGOBS

Yeah, and someday they'll find the customer is the revenue!

Billy Bunting

I’m seriously interested in the popularity of the Powerflush these days. I mainly stick to service work but do half a dozen or so boiler changes a year, normally cushty one's! I must be really lucky because most of the systems I come across have been clean as a whistle because most installers over the past 10 yrs at least have been educated to use inhibitors, on an average 3 bed house I normally change the pump there and then, and stick in Fernox F3 a week before I do the work.
More serious problems such as patchy cold rads I call out a mate with his machine, kemco cf90, it takes him around 2 hours to put it all together and take it apart, he goes around each rad with his hammer drill and attachment, 15 minutes each rad, 8 rads = 2hrs, total 4 hrs, charges me €35/hr plus €20 for the machine, he ain’t vat registered:D.
I always thought he was cheap but he recons he’s doing these all day everyday and spreads the cost of the machine over 3 or 4 years, sounds to me like he’s making a good living even at these prices, maybe he has another charge for regular custards.

I Believe the MI/Passport ask's "Has the system been flushed?", not Powerflushed.

Marcanthony

Billy Bunting wrote: »

8 rads = 2hrs, total 4 hrs, charges me €35/hr plus €20 for the machine, he ain’t vat registered:D.
I always thought he was cheap but he recons he’s doing these all day everyday and spreads the cost of the machine over 3 or 4 years, sounds to me like he’s making a good living even at these prices, maybe he has another charge for regular custards.

Thats a decent honest lad that will not be effected by the recession.
Anybody charging anymore than 400 ( even allowing for company Over heads ect) should be on the mug shot part of crimeline.

Merch

DGOBS wrote: »

150-200 for a flush is a joke, my chemical costs would be roughly 100! You get what you pay for, and as was said here recently, a boiler is only as good as the water flowing through it

Well, I did ask how much , when an approx price didnt come up in reply, I could only go on the OPs price that they are getting for a flush and install.
It would be handy if domestic systems had a filter in the system (with a bypass) to catch and gather all this sludge/residue.

It makes me wonder though, at the cost of flushing :eek:, might it be as easy and effective to just change the rads if they have corroded that badly to create problems? assuming the boiler hasnt corroded too

Merch

Merch wrote: »

It makes me wonder though, at the cost of flushing :eek:, might it be as easy and effective to just change the rads if they have corroded that badly to create problems?

No, sludge has a sandy consistency and will settle at the lowest point or as the boiler has the smallest pipe rwork of a heating system the boiler can act like a filter trapping sludge.

Sludge is only found in systems that has not been properly maintained or has lost there inhibitor, there is no excuse in this day and age for a dirty system as inhibitor has been around for a long time, anybody who has a system power flushed should protect it with their life and maintain the levels of inhibitor over the years to prevent anymore drama.

Billy Bunting

Merch wrote: »

It makes me wonder though, at the cost of flushing :eek:, might it be as easy and effective to just change the rads

By the looks of it it would really depend on who you get to FLUSH your system.

Merch

Can you hire powerflush or similar equipment from hire centres in Ireland?

JohnnieK

Merch wrote: »

Can you hire powerflush or similar equipment from hire centres in Ireland?

There is a place in Tallaght called PRISMA that hire out the Sentinal Machine, after that I dont know

Merch

JohnnieK wrote: »

There is a place in Tallaght called PRISMA that hire out the Sentinal Machine, after that I dont know

Thanks, Id never have come across PRISMA otherwise, I looked up sentinel too, they have a load of products related to cleaning heating systems, I fairly sure that even B&Q sell their cleaning and inhibitor products, although Im sure they could be got elsewhere cheaper.
I'd prefer rent out something purpose built but I'd nearly considered making up a piece of equipment to pump out a system using an old domestic heating pump.

JohnnieK

Merch wrote: »

Thanks, Id never have come across PRISMA otherwise, I looked up sentinel too, they have a load of products related to cleaning heating systems, I fairly sure that even B&Q sell their cleaning and inhibitor products, although Im sure they could be got elsewhere cheaper.
I'd prefer rent out something purpose built but I'd nearly considered making up a piece of equipment to pump out a system using an old domestic heating pump.

Re: the domestic heating pump.

You wont get the pressure you need to clean. A domestic heating pump only circulates there is no real pressure behind it. You need some thing with a bit of umph.
Try putting Sentinal X400 into it first. Run it for a week or two normally and drain down completely You will notice the difference with the 400 in the system

Refill then with Sentinal X100

Merch

what quantity do the x400 and x100 come in? or should I use? anywhere better to buy it than B&Q, plumbers merchants/providers?

I think I will try that before hiring out equipment, having said that I've had a walk around and checking rads, have found no cold spots/areas on the rads.

Cheers for the advice.

Billy Bunting

Merch wrote: »

I think I will try that before hiring out equipment, having said that I've had a walk around and checking rads, have found no cold spots/areas on the rads.

Cheers for the advice.

Why are you wanting to POWERFLUSH your system when it doesnt need it, flush it if desired, use a cleanser, but you have no signs of needing a powerflush.

GASMANN

Marcanthony wrote: »

Thats a decent honest lad that will not be effected by the recession.
Anybody charging anymore than 400 ( even allowing for company Over heads ect) should be on the mug shot part of crimeline.

i dont agree, just wanted to let you know.

GASMANN

Marcanthony wrote: »

Thats a decent honest lad that will not be effected by the recession.
Anybody charging anymore than 400 ( even allowing for company Over heads ect) should be on the mug shot part of crimeline.

decent honest lad - not vat registered and you've a problem with somebody charging + €400 a day legit, where's the logic here ?

GASMANN

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I’m seriously interested in the popularity of the Powerflush these days. I mainly stick to service work but do half a dozen or so boiler changes a year, normally cushty one's! I must be really lucky because most of the systems I come across have been clean as a whistle because most installers over the past 10 yrs at least have been educated to use inhibitors, on an average 3 bed house I normally change the pump there and then, and stick in Fernox F3 a week before I do the work.
More serious problems such as patchy cold rads I call out a mate with his machine, kemco cf90, it takes him around 2 hours to put it all together and take it apart, he goes around each rad with his hammer drill and attachment, 15 minutes each rad, 8 rads = 2hrs, total 4 hrs, charges me €35/hr plus €20 for the machine, he ain’t vat registered:D.
I always thought he was cheap but he recons he’s doing these all day everyday and spreads the cost of the machine over 3 or 4 years, sounds to me like he’s making a good living even at these prices, maybe he has another charge for regular custards.

I Believe the MI/Passport ask's "Has the system been flushed?", not Powerflushed.

true enough billy bunting, and its important that punters understand the difference

anuprising

agree with gasmann- if that lad not vat registered and he charging 35 hr 'all day ever day' then mathematics tell me he only works 16 hours a week or he is working for cash in hand /not declaring his total income ,as he would be well over the vat threshold otherwise
so he not really a decent honest lad or am i missing something

Billy Bunting

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I Believe the MI/Passport ask's "Has the system been flushed?", not Powerflushed.

A manufacture has no interest in if you flush or not, only if there is contamination or not, contamination = warranty bye, bye, it's up to the installer to decide what level of flush is required, a lot of boilers are installed without correctly flushing the system first.

It's not all about magnetite, adding inhibitor to a badly flushed/dirty system can lead to contamination that will attack a boiler shortening it's working life dramatically and again you can kiss good bye to the warranty as well.

GASMANN

+1 in a roundabout way with out saying that , that is what i was trying to say

Marcanthony

GASMANN wrote: »

i dont agree, just wanted to let you know.

:P I dont care if you agree . Just wanted to let you know.

Marcanthony

GASMANN wrote: »

decent honest lad - not vat registered and you've a problem with somebody charging + €400 a day legit, where's the logic here ?

Things must be still a bit yellow in your nappy .Sorry bathroom part of your business.:mad:
Let me tell you a little about business.
You dont have to be vat registered to be a decent lad. We contract a lot of business to sole traders not vat registered. Who are honest and decent and return their taxs. :P
THINK BEFORE YOUR FINGERS TYPE:o

Marcanthony

GASMANN wrote: »

+1 in a roundabout way with out saying that , that is what i was trying to say

Then why did you not say it:rolleyes:or even type it:D

Marcanthony

anuprising wrote: »

agree with gasmann- if that lad not vat registered and he charging 35 hr 'all day ever day' then mathematics tell me he only works 16 hours a week or he is working for cash in hand /not declaring his total income ,as he would be well over the vat threshold otherwise
so he not really a decent honest lad or am i missing something

Ask the lad to send you his self assessment and post it in the accounts forum.:mad:
its still a decent price add on the vat @13.5% if your vat registered.Problem solved.;)

anuprising

Marcanthony wrote: »

Ask the lad to send you his self assessment and post it in the accounts forum.:mad:
its still a decent price add on the vat @13.5% if your vat registered.Problem solved.;)

multiply 35€ by a normal working week then by 52 and you will see how far over the overshoot is , so something not right .

you try to achieve the top prices from insurance companys but your giving out about tradespeople charging too much ? double standards on your part I think
if you get a cheap subcontractor do you lower the claim accordingly ? I think not

Marcanthony

anuprising wrote: »

multiply 35€ by a normal working week then by 52 and you will see how far over the overshoot is , so something not right .

How do you know hes working them hours.You are making assumptions However if he goes over his threshold he is obliged to reg for vat and he can add on the 13.5%.Still a decent price.

you try to achieve the top prices from insurance companys but your giving out about tradespeople charging too much ? double standards on your part I think
if you get a cheap subcontractor do you lower the claim accordingly ? I think not

I quoted you above in bold also.

Our sole intrest is our clients best intrests . In relation to Insurance.Thats a legal contract between the policyholder and the insurance provider and we work on behalf of the policy holder to achieve their full entitlements.Using a data base of prices recommended for the current climate from the relevant institutes.However you obviosly dont know much. claims are dealt with in a strict code of practise.
However outside myself .All client/s are the employer and they should be be given the best possible price and service .As I stated your clients best intrests should be your best Intrests. I find this works in business .As referalls from clients to family and friends is our main advertisment.;)