Solar VP - Lots of questions - Rebates and Feed In Tariffs, Past experience ???

darkmaster2

darkmaster2 wrote: »

18.2KW today from the 3KW system

Wall to wall sunshine with slight haze.

That's good. So about 25 + in summer ? not bad

Now get a renault Zoe or a 2nd hand Leaf and make use of all that free energy!

freddyuk

Deleted User wrote: »

From fitarrifs.co.uk

"Who can claim the tariffs?
Anyone who installs a renewable energy system producing electricity is eligible to claim the tariffs as long as they produce less than 5MW of power. Virtually every property in England, Scotland and Wales is eligible."

Am I missing something, did I read that right 5mw ?

And the ESB allow only a max of 5kw ? something definitely wrong ?

syboit

darkmaster2 wrote: »

18.2KW today from the 3KW system

Wall to wall sunshine with slight haze.

Hi,

I think I missed the pics you posted, could you post the pics again. Is it allowed as part of the boards rules to say who fitted it for you ?

muffler

syboit wrote: »

Is it allowed as part of the boards rules to say who fitted it for you ?

Nope!

syboit

muffler wrote: »

Nope!

can he pm me ?

muffler

syboit wrote: »

can he pm me ?

Yes, of course.

Sorry I should have said that

fclauson

freddyuk wrote: »

and then in Ireland you get 9c per unit - which might be reducing to 7c

see http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/07/19/00201.asp

ECO_Mental

darkmaster2 wrote: »

I am just waiting now for ESB/Electric Ireland to install an import/export meter. At the moment the old meter is spinning backwards on a nice bright day, nice to see!

Just a simple question here lads and excuse my ignorance for the moment.:)

But if your meter is running backwards aren't you getting your elec at 21c per kwh, Am I wrong or am I wrong?

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/Domestic_Fuel_Costs_Comparison_January_2012_pdf.pdf

I am using approx 3700kWh a year in electricity at the moment so in theory if I have darkmasters system in which he hopes to get about 3500kWh a year then I should get my elec for free?? I have an electric hob and oven but I use mains gas for DHW and Space heating.

I suppose the problem here is that most of you lads are running at nothing near the elec consumption I am running. (it would be cheaper to have a gas hob and oven)

But is you are consuming approx the annual kWh generated then you get it at 21c because your meter is running backwards?

darkmaster2

ECO_Mental wrote: »

But is you are consuming approx the annual kWh generated then you get it at 21c because your meter is running backwards?

Only very old meters will spin backwards I believe. The old meter that was installed before they put in the smart meter was from the 70's .

But yes, with the old meter in I was basically getting the same rate for the units going out as what was coming in. The result would have been lower bills.

I dont think its legal to have a system like that though, you must inform the esb if you have a grid tied system I believe.

ECO_Mental

Thought that alright, sounded too good to be true:(,

I have a buddy who is an electrician with ESB networks I must give him a call to check anyway just out of curiosity.

freddyuk

If you install a grid tied system and inform ESB, as you must, then they will install a digital meter which will not spin backwards.
Today at midday I am getting 9.7amps from "cheapo Chinese" panels (which max out at 10.4 amps) which equates to 2230 watts from a 2660 watt system.
Nice sunny day but very cool so ideal conditions. In June I will get more output.
Anyone saying Chinese panels are rubbish are missing a trick.;)

Actually now hitting 10+ amps / 2328watts.

http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o517/freddyuk1/05042012204.jpg

darkmaster2

Good stuff Freddy,

Today was the best day so far for my panels.

Hey Darkmaster,

That would charge a Nissan Leaf !

Or get Zoe when she arrives!

darkmaster2

How much would A Zoe set us back? :eek:

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2012/03/renault-zoe-ev-to-be-launched-in.html

darkmaster2

darkmaster2 wrote: »

How much would A Zoe set us back?

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2012/03/renault-zoe-ev-to-be-launched-in.html

Zoe will set you back about 16,500 ( Irish price not confirmed and will no doubt see the dealers add another few hundred) Euro's but it has a lot of kit, a lot more than a Diesel Clio. Which costs about 18,950 for a higher spec Diesel clio with esp lol.

You can't really compare the diesel Clio to the Electric Zoe, the Zoe has a lot of kit that would probably see the Clio cost 20k and more, the Zoe has no gearbox so you might say it's automatic, and auto Clio would cost 1500 more!

You have to rent the battery at a cost of about 80 ish Euro's PM, for 12,500 kms per year over 3 years.

I worked this out in another thread on boards.ie that it costs around the same as the Diesel, if you got 55 mpg per tank. It would save you over the petrol.

Or if you go from a 40 mpg car, you will obviously save etc.

They have battery lease plans for up to 20,000 miles a year, again it will cost you no more than a 55 mpg diesel, and that's real per tank 55 mpg.

Renault are loosing massive amounts of money on the batteries initially, but should recoup the costs over the life of the battery, + they take all the risks with any problems that might occur and you won't have to worry about the life of the battery if buying 2nd hand as you will take out a lease on a new battery.

It's rumoured to be more efficient than the Leaf, and it's smaller too. More range, though that is unknown exactly, But it will vary from driver to driver and just like in my Prius, it takes time to get used to the car and to use the regen at the right time and use up the battery enough so your braking energy has somewhere to go and not as heat at the disks and pads. You don't have to drive like a granny!

Check out the esbecars website it will show you the active and future charge points location. You can charge Zoe in 1 hour from 0%. They are upgrading the chargers for 42kw so you will be able to charge in 30 mins. But that will usually be less as you will never be pushing it down the road to a charger.

Most charging will be done at home!

We need more petrol stations on the motorways so we wouldn't have to take detours to charge!

quentingargan

This is well off-topic. But we're missing the point here. Solar PVs produce power during the daytime when power is in popular demand. However, they are only financially viable if someone is willing to pay about 20c for the electricity they produce.

Electric cars have batteries that can be charged on off-peak electricity at 2.00am when wind turbines and other energy sources are spinning and nobody has the lights on. At this time, the wholesale price for electricity is often as low as 2.5c.

Running your electric car off solar PVs doesn't really make sense. Besides, it is usually parked somewhere else during the daytime.

The other benefit to electric cars is the possibility that their batteries could export power to the grid during peak consumption times around 5.00pm.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

Running your electric car off solar PVs doesn't really make sense. Besides, it is usually parked somewhere else during the daytime.

It makes perfect sense, you export it and get 9C per kw/hr and buy it back at night for 7 cent! The E.S.B is, in fact your big storage battery, and saves you the current several thousand Euro's cost in purchasing batteries!

quentingargan wrote: »

The other benefit to electric cars is the possibility that their batteries could export power to the grid during peak consumption times around 5.00pm.

Yes the E.S.B are looking into this and will mean we can be the E.S.B's big battery at night when excess wind has to be turned off, and they can buy it back off us during the day if our cars are idle!

Using e.v's as storage is the future and also spent batteries.

Spent batteries still have several years of life after they no longer offer decent range.

darkmaster2

quentingargan wrote: »

This is well off-topic. But we're missing the point here. Solar PVs produce power during the daytime when power is in popular demand. However, they are only financially viable if someone is willing to pay about 20c for the electricity they produce.

I signed up when the ESB had the offer of giving you 19c per hour, this was available up until last month. I will have this 19cper KW for the next 5 years. People didnt avail of solar PV even when it dropped in price, now the ESB only offer 9c.. There is no incenting to sell PV power back at the moment, but there was. It is the general publics fault too, for not availing of the good rates when they were there.

I want to know why we can't sell electricty to Airtricity or any other supplier? If there was some competition then the price may go above 9c to a fairer rate.

darkmaster2

darkmaster2 wrote: »

I signed up when the ESB had the offer of giving you 19c per hour, this was available up until last month. I will have this 19cper KW for the next 5 years. People didnt avail of solar PV even when it dropped in price, now the ESB only offer 9c.. There is no incenting to sell PV power back at the moment, but there was. It is the general publics fault too, for not availing of the good rates when they were there.

I want to know why we can't sell electricty to Airtricity or any other supplier? If there was some competition then the price may go above 9c to a fairer rate.

WOW 19C, good for you!

But was that only for the first few kw/hrs ?

I still think the 9 c per kw/hr is good enough because you buy back at 7.

I would have solar and e.v in the morning if I had the money.

But a lot of people will still complain if they cost 5 grand for a 5 kw/p system!

People will spend their money in different ways and solar is something they don't consider anything worth while.....yet!

It's like people think I'm mad for spending what I did on my bike, some of them spend more than that on drink in a year, I certainly don't and would rather put my money into something useful and worth while!

If you drink 5 pints a week every week for a year that's 1100 euro's. No chance. I know people that drink 2 or 3 days a week and they think I'm mad ?

darkmaster2

Deleted User wrote: »

WOW 19C, good for you!

But was that only for the first few kw/hrs ?

I still think the 9 c per kw/hr is good enough because you buy back at 7.

Here is what it says in my contract with the ESB:

"The Electric Ireland payment (9 cent per kWh) and ESB Support Payment (10 cent / kWh) will be calculated on the anniversary of the above contract start date. Payments for exported electricity will appear as a credit on your Electric Ireland bill.
The ESB Network Support Payment is capped at 3000kWh per annum and ceases on the 5th anniversary of the contract start date (20/02/2017). "


I can sell the up to 3000KW per annum and will recieve 9c per KW + a support payment of 10c per KW - total = 19c. This will be for 5 years. Not a bad deal. There is no way I will exceed the 3000KW limit.



Who knows what will happen after the 5 years? I decided to take the chance, I dont see it as a waste of money. As you said, there a plenty of ways to blow a large sum of cash.

darkmaster2

darkmaster2 wrote: »

Who knows what will happen after the 5 years? I decided to take the chance, I dont see it as a waste of money. As you said, there a plenty of ways to blow a large sum of cash.

Yeah good for you. It's not a waste at all and as electricity costs go up, you will probably generate most of your own energy. and a lot more I think. It will be interesting to know your results over a year such as energy generated, energy purchased, and total kw/hrs consumed by you!

On sunny winter days I would turn on an electric heater rather than use oil or gas or solid fuel and that would be worth more than the 16C that you would get, unless of course you would heat an entire house to sit in one room ?

A wind turbine would be a really good with a solar system if only the cost of wind turbines and installation would come down, but there are 0 signs of that happening any time soon!

The 5.5 kw limit is also too low, if that can be increased it would be good!

noel100

Hi I haven't been here in a few weeks,

I was looking at this system, I'm wondering is this system is legal.
PV system that plugs in to the mains socket. It is 390Watt system with small inverter plugged into the mains socket, I presume it would offset electricity used.
Great idea but I would imagine that you need minimum constant power usage
in your home to offset small system.

Has anyone seen this system before link http://goo.gl/4thbe

Can you give pro's and cons,

Thanks
Noel

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

...you buy back at 7c....

Not true

look carfully at your bill - to use night saver rate you pay and additional (depending on supplier) €45

If we do the maths - thats means roughly the first 500kWh of nighttime elec you use is still being charge at the day rate €45/(16c-7c)

So the sell at 9c buy back at 7c does not wholly stack up because the first 500kWh is at normal rate

Now - I have just written to the ESB and am looking from the others to write to with the following letter

I have been thinking – and have come up with a no cost option to the electric companies of making PV make sense – perhaps you could help me navigate who I should take this message too

It seems grotesquely unfair for me to generate electricity via PV and sell it at 9c only to buy it back at 16 or 17.

This is where I would like your help :

Basically if you could do two things it would wholly improve the situation
a) Drop the extra costs for have a split tariff/night saver meter thus allow me to purchase electricity at night for the night saver rate of around 8c but with no additional standing charge.
b) And this is a little harder due to the way the meters work – extend the hours of night saver to be say from 8pm until 8am thus allowing me to purchase 8c electricity from earlier in the evening.
Effectively to use the grid as a “battery” for the electricity I produce.

This option would be at a very low cost to the generators and could be a way of allowing them to make it a little more attractive to the PV market.

Alternatively a second approach – and this is a little more complicated I suspect because it will require manual intervention into their billing systems - allow me to purchase back all the units I produced and sold at 9c at the same 9c rate thus again using the network as a “battery” for my energy production.

noel100

It is funny that you say that, In Germany the FIT for PV has dropped below the retail rate. If you install a domestic or Large PV farm when new FIT comes in June you will average 7percent and If you sell the electricity directly to the consumer you will generate 14 plus percent. Now this is opening the market to small operators which the monopoly's have been dreading....

We have one big monopoly here and they won't bend, I read an article the other day that show PV is now cheaper than Natural Gas generated electricity in California plus if a utility uses PV they guarantee the price for 20+years & Gas can fluctuate on a daily basis.

I would love to see legislation come in so that ESB off sets your bill, If you generate 1000KW per year and you use 3000KW per year you only pay for 2000KW and you have a saving of 1000KW @ €0.21 plus vat.

Another thing if any one generates green electricity why don't they receive some of the PSO levy. This is ear marked to the wind industry but should also be given to PV as well..

noel100

noel100 wrote: »

Hi I haven't been here in a few weeks,

I was looking at this system, I'm wondering is this system is legal.
PV system that plugs in to the mains socket. It is 390Watt system with small inverter plugged into the mains socket, I presume it would offset electricity used.
Great idea but I would imagine that you need minimum constant power usage
in your home to offset small system.

Has anyone seen this system before link http://goo.gl/4thbe

Can you give pro's and cons,

Thanks
Noel

Hi Noel,

That to me seems like an awful lot for only 350w/P !!!

I would start by asking for the cost of the individual components, from the panels themselves down to the wiring.

That site tells you nothing about the make and model of the inverter, make of panels etc.

Shop around is the best thing to do. You can get panels from Germany for about 75 cent per watt in 5kw quantity, a lot cheaper than you will get here. You will have to pay for shipping. I don't thing 350 watts is worth your while, you will only generate that on a sunny day.

I would always advise looking around and make a deal with installers that you get the panels yourself. Ireland is still very much a rip off and there are a lot of people that are completely unaware how much solar p.v has dropped in price!

noel100

I know the price is crazy, I could put something together myself for half the price,
But I'm looking at the concept, Does it work? 2 PV panels & inverter plugged into the mains power socket instead of using power you are selling back to the grid at €0.09c/KW. If you could balance the system correctly with minimum amount used during the day and panels on the roof you could off set a couple of KW a day and benefit from the full rate & less tax.

I don't know is it legal and as far as I understand there is no separate meter reading the amount electricity produced so you must be off setting what you are using. This could be a great idea to off set electricity produced at the full rate if you buy at.

freddyuk

Plugging these small kits into your socket is not a new idea as Soladin have done (an approved) similar thing for a while but to plug a few kw's of power into your socket without the protections to the network is I would assume illegal and potentially dangerous hence the reason for all the regulations over installing grid tied PV.
The kit shows 2 x 195wp panels wired in parallel which produces 2 x amps (10.50) @ 36v not as described! By adding additional kits as suggested you will either have 70v @ 20amps or 140v @ 10 amps. Try touching the cables!! I cannot believe these kits are legal and they are certainly not as described.
PM if you want some sensible /legal options.

noel100

Thanks for your input, I thought the same.
It is something I've never seen before. I would be all for grid tied system but if you could avail of a small system that off sett at the full price or dedicated 2-3 panels in a grid tied system to off set at the full price it would be a bonus...

You can install solar yourself and use an approved inverter, one that meets all the regulations and shuts off the power to the grid in the event of power failure to protect workers.

You won't however, get any feed-in-tariff off the E.S.B without professional certified installer. You will also be giving any excess to the E.S.B for free.

There are good Kits from Germany, use google chrome and google.de and it will translate for you. Search for pages from Germany.

You can get full certified kits, however make sure you check the inverters, they MUST meet E.S.B certification!

Then get estimations from a few certified installers, You will then know very easily if you are being ripped off or not because you will already know the cost of all the parts, however it's not always right to assume you will get everything required in the kit.

It will always be cheaper to get the 5kw/P panels, cheaper per watt that is. I think I remember seeing them for as low as 75C per watt, costing about 3,750 for 5kw/p of solar, excluding shipping!

I would always get an itemised estimation from an installer, that way you know what everything is going to cost, and know how much he is charging for labour!!!

freddyuk

I think you will find that to connect a micro generator to the ESB network you need to provide an NC6 form and provide a wiring completion certificate. You cannot just connect a system to the network without permission!
The whole point is that the system needs to comply with "Conditions Governing the Connection and Operation of Micro-generation" because of the safety issues. The fact the information is taken on trust by ESB is in my view negligent but that is the current system. If many systems are connected in a locality and the ESB have no record then the infrastructure can be compromised and cause distribution/supply problems for everyone else in the area. I am sure there are a few systems out there connected illegally and if they are big enough and do not comply and an ESB worker gets electrocuted then they will shut down all micro generators pretty quickly. Won't stop the illegals of course but the penalties will be quite severe.
So yes you can actually install the system yourself having got permission and declared the inverter conforms to the settings required and then you need an electrician to provide the completion safety certificate as a minimum. I would not advocate messing with this kit unless you are qualified and even most electricians are lacking in knowledge about DC generally and PV specifically so get someone who knows what they are doing. DC kills very effectively and it is on your roof. AC gives you a shock but you will not get a second chance with DC so beware. Just imagine you have installed your own system and the framework is "live" and you employ a roofer for some work and he touches the live array. That will be a very large damages claim and you may find you have no insurance for that.