Solar VP - Lots of questions - Rebates and Feed In Tariffs, Past experience ???

abyss

darkmaster2 wrote: »

The Panels are Sharp and the inverter is an SMA sunny boy 3000

Thanks for photos. Very impressive installation.
What voltage has each panel? I'm trying to count cells - are there 10x6=60 of them on each from 12 panels? They looks like polycrystal type.

HI Everyone sorry to but in but this is a great discussion keep it going!

I installed one of those energy monitors on my meter. It is as accurate as I can measure. I flick on the kettle and it goes up 3kw, and so on. When I hit the main switch in the consumer unit it goes to 0.

It says my daily average is 6.2 kw/hrs per day!

So based on darkmaster 2's data 1.5-2kw is good on a winters sunny day ? That would generate a lot more then I require through any one day.

The plan eventually if I can move is to have a hybrid system of wind and solar, but wind turbine installations in Ireland seem outrageously expensive, I've seen 15000 Euro's + for a 3kw system meaning it costs a lot more than solar at this moment in time! And there are a lot of dodgy installers selling turbines not capable of some of our stormy gusts!

Darkmaster, can you tell me what the cost of the panels were ? they can be got from Germany for 86Cent watt, inc vat and If I'm reading that correctly, is amazing. I think I would get an ass kicking if I post the website ???

I'm just after looking at another site that says 97 cent per watt, and 1.17 per watt.

I have read that the price is to fall even further this year!

Seems like 10 grand for a 3kw system is expensive giving those prices ?

If you can now get solar panels for say 1 euro per watt, where does the 10 grand come in ? sure Inverter, cables, mounting brackets, labour etc, but is 10 grand a bit excessive ?

I remember 6 or 7 years ago a 250 watt panel would have cost 1000 Euro's!

If this keeps up there would be no reason not to get solar, it might even worry a lot of energy companies. I can't see it being allowed to continue that solar prices drop like this ?

My electric bills are about 400 ish per year, so not really worth it yet, But if the panels can be got for around 3 grand, how much should installation cost given an average terrace house ? or dorm bungalow ?

By the time I'm ready to install prices will be a lot lower, very interesting times!

By the way how much is the 9cent per kw/hr feed-in-tariff likely to amount up to over a year ? might help offset some of the costs.

This is obviously a route someone with an e.v should consider even more, provided of course you can charge at home during the day or store in batteries!

Sorry for the long post but I'm very interested in renewable energy!

darkmaster2

abyss wrote: »

Thanks for photos. Very impressive installation.
What voltage has each panel? I'm trying to count cells - are there 10x6=60 of them on each from 12 panels? They looks like polycrystal type.

The panel is a Sharp ND-R250A5

Deleted User wrote: »

Darkmaster, can you tell me what the cost of the panels were ? they can be got from Germany for 86Cent watt, inc vat and If I'm reading that correctly, is amazing. I think I would get an ass kicking if I post the website ???

I'm just after looking at another site that says 97 cent per watt, and 1.17 per watt.

I have read that the price is to fall even further this year!

Seems like 10 grand for a 3kw system is expensive giving those prices ?

If you can now get solar panels for say 1 euro per watt, where does the 10 grand come in ? sure Inverter, cables, mounting brackets, labour etc, but is 10 grand a bit excessive ?

Yeah, Im sure it is possible to save a fair bit by DIYing the install, but around 10K isn't that high if you have a look around at what installers are charging. Here is more or less the same kit

By the way how much is the 9cent per kw/hr feed-in-tariff likely to amount up to over a year ? might help offset some of the costs.

I havent worked out what will be going back into the grid from my system but ESB are giving a rate of 9c per Kwhr + an extra 10c per Kwhr for the next 5 years if the system is connected to the grid before the end of this month.

I saw panels for 84 cent per watt from Germany when buying 5kw of panels.

They advertise German made panels for 1.17 per watt, costing 5850, excluding shipping of course. For 5kw

I find it hard to believe that a 3kw system installed could cost 10 grand, even the link you provide costs 6000 Euro's for a 3kw system but as a kit including inverter. So that leaves 4 grand for installation which I think is very expensive!

Did you get a break down of the costs, for all the parts + installation ? if so would you mind sharing that information ?

But fair play to you for taking the big leap, If you had an Nissan Leaf you could charge for free on a sunny day, or it would go a good way towards charging it on a cloudy day. Using it for transport would pay back that 10 grand installation costs in a very short time, considering the increasing "tax" applied to petrol and diesel!

Some day I plan to be off grid and charge an E.V with a mix of solar and wind, I would probably be out during the day, and charging would be done at night, so if only using solar I would need to store it, and the leaf has a 24kw/hr battery, so I would need 300 amp/hrs of batteries at 48 volts. That is expensive. SO the hybrid system would give me the best of both worlds if going into the grid. The price of wind installations isn't getting cheaper though! If only there was a grant for solar and wind!

darkmaster2

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a 3kw system installed could cost 10 grand, even the link you provide costs 6000 Euro's for a 3kw system but as a kit including inverter. So that leaves 4 grand for installation which I think is very expensive!

Did you get a break down of the costs, for all the parts + installation ? if so would you mind sharing that information ?

That Kit I linked to is over €7k including vat, Im not sure what they charge for delivery, so that is extra too. i didnt get a breakdown in costs, but from looking around at UK installer sites, €10k for a 3Kw system was about average. A few months ago installers were charging around 14 - 15k for a 3kw system.

But fair play to you for taking the big leap, If you had an Nissan Leaf you could charge for free on a sunny day, or it would go a good way towards charging it on a cloudy day. Using it for transport would pay back that 10 grand installation costs in a very short time, considering the increasing "tax" applied to petrol and diesel!

Im thinking the same thing about the nissan leaf. It would be an ideal way to use the excess electricity produced. 30k for a car is a bit on the high side, i wonder will they drop substancially anytime soon?

Some day I plan to be off grid and charge an E.V with a mix of solar and wind, I would probably be out during the day, and charging would be done at night, so if only using solar I would need to store it, and the leaf has a 24kw/hr battery, so I would need 300 amp/hrs of batteries at 48 volts. That is expensive. SO the hybrid system would give me the best of both worlds if going into the grid. The price of wind installations isn't getting cheaper though! If only there was a grant for solar and wind!

Yeah, the price of turbines aint coming town antime soon, hopefully there will be some grant available in the future, but i wouldnt hold my breath. I too plan to someday live more or less without dependance on the grid, I think its entirely possible with a hybrid system.

E.V prices will come down, in a few years. Nissan are going to start building batteries and leaf's in the U.K next year and that will knock a few grand off the price. When Leaf II comes in 2015 ir's hard to know what they will do, maybe greater range, or more range as an optional extra, who knows! I would say they will have better range. If they can get 100 miles range at 70 mph that would be perfect for me and most people.

They have 10 min charging, but it's going to take a few years to make sure 100kw+ of electricity doesn't make anything explode. Then the already "few" fast chargers would have to be upgraded.

Induction charging, will be offered in 2013, and they are upgrading the home charger from 3kw to 6kw, charging the leaf from empty to full in 4 hours instead of 8 for this year (2012) model. My toothbrush takes a lot longer than that!!! My razor 2 hrs. My phone 2 hrs. My bike battery 2 hrs. So it won't be so bad to live with!

You can always add another 3kw to your system, and sell your 3kw inverter and upgrade to a 6kw. You can use a wireless adapter on a lot of those inverters so you can track exactly how much you are generating.

Going off grid is always going to cost because of batteries, but Lithium offers the best solution because even though it would be more expensive than lead acid, with lead acid you have to use only 30% capacity to get 5+ years. Lithium you can use 80% for many more cycles than lead acid, so in the long term it's better to go lithium.

As I said earlier, the leaf has a 24 kw/hr battery, but from reading reports on the net, uses only 20 to extend battery life, then you need enough storage to run your house. So 48 volts x 600 amp/hr = 28,800 watt/hrs of storage you would need, and keeping a buffer in the battery that you will not use, to extend life. It all gets expensive for now. But you see you would be probably working during the day when your solar is generating, so you would be giving it to the E.S.B for 9 cent and buying it off them for 8 charging on night tariff, so it would balance out in the end.

Your 3 kw solar best case sunny day might generate 2-2.5 kw over say 12 hours in summer, would generate 30 kw/hrs of energy. My daily average is 6.3
So that's 2.13 per day you would get from the e.s.b, only on sunny days of course, half that on cloudy days, and probably less than half in winter cloudy days! You could get more in the 16 or 17 hrs of daylight of summer if your panels could track the sun!

Wind would be a good mixture, but it's way too expensive and if solar keeps getting cheaper as fast, wind manufacturers will have no choice but to drop costs, but in Ireland it's thought that wind is the best option, in fact I think wind and solar together is best, 3kw solar and 3kw wind, if you have room and are allowed to install a turbine that is!

Does anyone know how the e.s.b pay you for electricity you generate in excess ? do they give you credit on bill or cheque ?

brendanf

freddyuk wrote: »

Just to clarify the difference in the schemes discussed. The UK system pays an index linked sum for 25 years based on total production. In addition an export tariff pays 3.3p per unit for any exported power. In Ireland you are only paid for exported generation @ 19c for a limited period. There is no payment for generated power (you just get the free usage of your own generation so saving buying it from the grid).
My 2.66kw system was producing 2.3kw yesterday when the sun finally poked it's head out. Once the new meter is installed I will not get any direct benefit of generating unless I do not use my total production. Currently my meter is reversing so a much better deal. The scheme is badly managed and poorly supervised. If I get hit with the new low user standing charge from ESB (Electric Ireland) I will go underground!

I know a guy with a 6kW wind turbine - he got hit with that low user charge...its an absolute disgrace

Coles

brendanf wrote: »

I know a guy with a 6kW wind turbine - he got hit with that low user charge...its an absolute disgrace

Have a read of this thread. ESB/Electric Ireland say they won't apply the charge on micro generators. Instead they'll just continue to take your clean renewable energy off you and sell it directly to your neighbour for more than twice the price. No transmission losses, no added cost burden on them. Pure profit. Nice.

Hey darkmaster2,

How is your system performing today being nice and bright ?

noel100

Thanks for the info, Please keep updated how you get on with microgeneration fee..

I have been looking at installing PV to the house.
I have been looking at possible ways to use the electricity for my personal use
rather than sell it at discount to the ESB.

I have been researching Infra red heaters and using set amount electricity yo heat water..

With the price of solar pv around €1/watt I have been thinking installing somewhere in the region of 7-10KW with to sunny boy inverters 3.5-5Kw .

Here is a German company that sell PV gives an Idea of prices
http://www.europe-solar.de/catalog/index.php?main_page=page_3

noel100

noel100 wrote: »

Thanks for the info, Please keep updated how you get on with microgeneration fee..

I have been looking at installing PV to the house.
I have been looking at possible ways to use the electricity for my personal use
rather than sell it at discount to the ESB.

I have been researching Infra red heaters and using set amount electricity yo heat water..

With the price of solar pv around €1/watt I have been thinking installing somewhere in the region of 7-10KW with to sunny boy inverters 3.5-5Kw .

Here is a German company that sell PV gives an Idea of prices
http://www.europe-solar.de/catalog/index.php?main_page=page_3

I don't think posting a link would go down well!

If you look you Will find a German company selling solar pc at 85 cent per watt in 5 kw quantities which is excellent.

You would need to find out about warrantys and what they actually guarntee.

Then arrange a deal with a local installer and maybe offer to give a hand with the heavy lifting or whatever to get the cost down.

Obviously the pay back is much shorter if you use an ev giving the current cost of petrol and diesel it makes perfect sense.

If you are out during the day then you sell it to esb. then buy it back 1 cent cheaper at night rate. so basically the esb is your big battery. brilliant!

Try and find about storage using lithium batteries. lifep04 has much greater life and Will be much smaller in size and Will be more expensive but cheaper in long run because they have a lot longer life.

The 5kw though is the way to go.

noel100

Sorry am I not supposed to post links,
I wasn't advertising anything but researching PV installations and what people are installing, I have plenty of information and links to different sites related to PV but wanted to know from an Irish perspective those who have installed and what problems they have encountered..

Regards PV install I would only install from a few suppliers, Chinese suppliers like Yingli, Canadian solar, Suntech, LDK and Trina solar. These module makers will be around in 10years time and longer.

I know from the German forums that PV installers can install at an all in cost around €1750-1950/Kw. This is due to economy of scale. Germany has installed over 20GW of solar panels so far.
Feed in tariff is being reduced to €0.165c/Kw 9th March12, Tariff at the moment is €0.22c/KW and giving yields 12-15%.
So Tariff of €0.09c is just under half of Germany at the moment which should represent 4-5% yield if you can get the install at less then €2000/kw.

Hi Noel,

Yeah we need a good source of installers that are not cowboys and just out to rip us off. If you find any let me know!

The E.S.B's 9 cent per kw/hr is low, but they do have to maintain the network etc. In the future they might not even give that!

The only sensible way of using solar is for E.V use or heating, for instance your 5 kw system even on a cloudy day should generate 2 kw+ and that over 8 hours is 16kw/hrs a day give or take and that is more than most homes would use in a day, my daily average is 6.2 kw/hrs per day.

The Nissan Leaf has a 24 kw/hr battery, you will never run it to empty and will have at least 2-3 kw/hrs left if you use it's max range a day. 80 ish miles 50-65 mph.

So if you generate 16 kw/hrs average a day that will significantly reduce your transportation costs and total energy costs.

Now the summer even in cloudy weather 2-2.5kw over 14 hours of usable light would be 28-35 kw/hrs. On a sunny day 4-4.5 kw over 14 hours becomes 56-63 kw/hrs providing way more than you would need and you could drive completely free.

If I were lucky enough to have the Nissan Leaf and used a full charge for getting to work, I would need 5 mins on the fast charger because it's range is about 80 miles at 50-55 mph and 65-70 miles at 60-65 mph based on real reports from owners and not so called motor journalists.

So based on 60-65 mph and less in a lot of cases on the N7 south in the evening I could just about make my 80-82 mile round trip, or from city west plug into the fast charger on belgard or the topaz behind bewley's at newlands cross for 5 mins to top up. Hardly inconvenient.

You could travel from Carlow town to The luas which is about 50 miles at 70 mph no problem and plug in to their charger and it's charged when you come back.

So out of your solar pv it's sending power to the E.S.B during the day and you buy it back at night rate 1 cent cheaper than they pay you.

At current fuel prices it will cost me 2860 per year to drive to work and back 80 miles a day.

If you have no solar system it will cost 1.60 for 20kw/hrs to charge the Leaf at night for 65-70 miles range and another few cent to top up on fast charger so say 2 Euro's per day brings my fuel bills down to 520 per year, and the 5 mins on the fast charger for my usage would be paid for by the excess generated by the solar.

My electricity usage is 2190 kw/hrs per year

The solar system could generate 9744 kw/hrs per year based on minimum generation and basing it on 6 months of summer and 6 of winter daylight hours, cloudy weather and generating only 2kw in winter per hour, and not including sun and full power.

So that leaves me with 7554 kw/ hrs after my normal usage.

The leaf per year would use 7800 kw/hrs per year based on my driving, so that pretty much means little or no fuel costs for me, saving me a good 3000 Euro's per year, total, for driving and house electricity meaning the 5kw solar p.v would pay back in 3.5 years based on 10,000 installation.

Yes you would still have to pay back the Nissan Leaf at 30,000, but for anyone that likes to spend 20-30 grand on a car might consider solar to reduce your energy bills, You can get a leaf in the U.K 2nd hand for 24,000 Euro's and no vrt!

Just by driving electric saves a lot of money, then you could always install wind turbine and run your heating, a hybrid system would be best!

Sorry about the long post and numbers. I do have a strange way of working or trying to work things out!

By the way the E.S.B only allow a max generation of 5.5 kw into their network, and say you need 3 phase for more, I don't understand this because you can take 10,000 + from the grid on single phase 220 volts!

Anyone know the reason for that ?

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

...So out of your solar pv it's sending power to the E.S.B during the day and you buy it back at night rate 1 cent cheaper than they pay you.

Watch this - not strictly true - you get charged an additioanl €50 for having a duel tariff meter - that skews the numbers a bit more

freddyuk

Deleted User wrote: »

By the way the E.S.B only allow a max generation of 5.5 kw into their network, and say you need 3 phase for more, I don't understand this because you can take 10,000 + from the grid on single phase 220 volts!

Anyone know the reason for that ?

The ESB network is a distribution system designed to distribute energy in a balanced way to the customers in any area via the distribution grid. If there is a large generator pumping power into the grid from the other direction and it cannot be used locally it can upset the system and cause supply problems and voltage fluctuations which affect other customers in the area. The 16 amp limit is supposed to avoid any issues but if lot's of small generators get established in a locality the Network will need upgrading to cope.

freddyuk

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Noel,

Yeah we need a good source of installers that are not cowboys and just out to rip us off. If you find any let me know!

The E.S.B's 9 cent per kw/hr is low, but they do have to maintain the network etc. In the future they might not even give that!

The only sensible way of using solar is for E.V use or heating, for instance your 5 kw system even on a cloudy day should generate 2 kw+ and that over 8 hours is 16kw/hrs a day give or take and that is more than most homes would use in a day, my daily average is 6.2 kw/hrs per day.

The Nissan Leaf has a 24 kw/hr battery, you will never run it to empty and will have at least 2-3 kw/hrs left if you use it's max range a day. 80 ish miles 50-65 mph.

So if you generate 16 kw/hrs average a day that will significantly reduce your transportation costs and total energy costs.

Now the summer even in cloudy weather 2-2.5kw over 14 hours of usable light would be 28-35 kw/hrs. On a sunny day 4-4.5 kw over 14 hours becomes 56-63 kw/hrs providing way more than you would need and you could drive completely free.

If I were lucky enough to have the Nissan Leaf and used a full charge for getting to work, I would need 5 mins on the fast charger because it's range is about 80 miles at 50-55 mph and 65-70 miles at 60-65 mph based on real reports from owners and not so called motor journalists.

So based on 60-65 mph and less in a lot of cases on the N7 south in the evening I could just about make my 80-82 mile round trip, or from city west plug into the fast charger on belgard or the topaz behind bewley's at newlands cross for 5 mins to top up. Hardly inconvenient.

You could travel from Carlow town to The luas which is about 50 miles at 70 mph no problem and plug in to their charger and it's charged when you come back.

So out of your solar pv it's sending power to the E.S.B during the day and you buy it back at night rate 1 cent cheaper than they pay you.

At current fuel prices it will cost me 2860 per year to drive to work and back 80 miles a day.

If you have no solar system it will cost 1.60 for 20kw/hrs to charge the Leaf at night for 65-70 miles range and another few cent to top up on fast charger so say 2 Euro's per day brings my fuel bills down to 520 per year, and the 5 mins on the fast charger for my usage would be paid for by the excess generated by the solar.

My electricity usage is 2190 kw/hrs per year

The solar system could generate 9744 kw/hrs per year based on minimum generation and basing it on 6 months of summer and 6 of winter daylight hours, cloudy weather and generating only 2kw in winter per hour, and not including sun and full power.

So that leaves me with 7554 kw/ hrs after my normal usage.

The leaf per year would use 7800 kw/hrs per year based on my driving, so that pretty much means little or no fuel costs for me, saving me a good 3000 Euro's per year, total, for driving and house electricity meaning the 5kw solar p.v would pay back in 3.5 years based on 10,000 installation.

Yes you would still have to pay back the Nissan Leaf at 30,000, but for anyone that likes to spend 20-30 grand on a car might consider solar to reduce your energy bills, You can get a leaf in the U.K 2nd hand for 24,000 Euro's and no vrt!

Just by driving electric saves a lot of money, then you could always install wind turbine and run your heating, a hybrid system would be best!

Sorry about the long post and numbers. I do have a strange way of working or trying to work things out!

The issue you need to address is how you manage the PV production to coincide with the demand. If you plug the EV in and go off for the day and it turns cloudy you are drawing power from the grid and the numbers do not then add up?
The major issue with PV is knowing how to manage the usage as it cannot easily be stored. Water heating is one method and there are some devices to help with feeding any surplus into your DHW store. The same control is required for any store be it battery charging or storage heating. No point in investing in free energy and then buying extra off the grid because you can't control the generation/demand cycle. If you are not producing enough PV energy you want to turn appliances off that are drawing power and turn them on when power is available for free. Only then are you maximising the renewable energy option.

noel100

Thanks for the long post,

I've have looked at the Leaf, Nice car but won't be paying out that money for the car yet. I said I wait a couple of years and see if all the bugs knocked out of the car and better efficiency on the battery arrives. If they depreciate the way toyota prius have come down in price I will expect to pick a 3-4year old Leaf up for 60-70% less than original price.

I have been researching some form of heating system that could be compatible with solar PV. I don't know much about Infra red heaters. They resemble thin radiators that can be placed on the wall or ceiling. They should heat the walls and floor of the house like sun rays on a summers day releasing heat. This could be a way of reducing the cost of kerozene use.

I believe that we are heading into a future of high energy prices and unstable supply. want to secure EV car & solar panels and heat source.

I know from what I have read on Micro generation from ESB that they will only except a total of 6000KW. I presume that is the yearly amount they will take from you.

I'm surprised that you are getting over 9000Kw from a 5.5Kw system.
Could you tell me about the system you have, Did you purchase panels and inverters separately. Did you have a contractor install system.

I was in contact with a broker in Germany that was willing to sell me a complete system @ $1.75/watt including cables , roofing brackets German 210watt panels and power one inverter including delivery. Wasn't a bad price but problem is German manufacturers can't compete against Chinese and sell for a premium. This worries me about the Warranty etc.

freddyuk

noel100 wrote: »

Sorry am I not supposed to post links,
I wasn't advertising anything but researching PV installations and what people are installing, I have plenty of information and links to different sites related to PV but wanted to know from an Irish perspective those who have installed and what problems they have encountered..

Regards PV install I would only install from a few suppliers, Chinese suppliers like Yingli, Canadian solar, Suntech, LDK and Trina solar. These module makers will be around in 10years time and longer.

I know from the German forums that PV installers can install at an all in cost around €1750-1950/Kw. This is due to economy of scale. Germany has installed over 20GW of solar panels so far.
Feed in tariff is being reduced to €0.165c/Kw 9th March12, Tariff at the moment is €0.22c/KW and giving yields 12-15%.
So Tariff of €0.09c is just under half of Germany at the moment which should represent 4-5% yield if you can get the install at less then €2000/kw.

German FIT is going down to €0.195 for under 10kw rooftop systems. However this is a proposal at this stage.

freddyuk

freddyuk wrote: »

The issue you need to address is how you manage the PV production to coincide with the demand. If you plug the EV in and go off for the day and it turns cloudy you are drawing power from the grid and the numbers do not then add up?
The major issue with PV is knowing how to manage the usage as it cannot easily be stored. Water heating is one method and there are some devices to help with feeding any surplus into your DHW store. The same control is required for any store be it battery charging or storage heating. No point in investing in free energy and then buying extra off the grid because you can't control the generation/demand cycle. If you are not producing enough PV energy you want to turn appliances off that are drawing power and turn them on when power is available for free. Only then are you maximising the renewable energy option.

I based all those figures on cloudy only weather. That's why I would opt for the 5-5.5kw system.

Yes my figures could be out a little, and I bet they are way too low given the fact we actually do have sunny days.

2-2.5 kw out of a 5kw system should be more than possible on a cloudy day.

Regarding power management, dumping the excess into water heating is fine, but you would only be dumping that for a short enough time.

ALl this is fine if you are off grid, for which you would have a battery bank.

The e.s.b being your battery until batteries become cheaper.Even if the esb charge you 50 quid a year for the meter this is far less than the cost of petrol and diesel, you still buy back for 8 cent at night while you are generating during the day and you are at work or whatever.

noel100

noel100 wrote: »

Thanks for the long post,

I've have looked at the Leaf, Nice car but won't be paying out that money for the car yet. I said I wait a couple of years and see if all the bugs knocked out of the car and better efficiency on the battery arrives. If they depreciate the way toyota prius have come down in price I will expect to pick a 3-4year old Leaf up for 60-70% less than original price.

It's very interesting the fact that the Prius goes for a good price 2nd hand because everyone is so quick to believe diesel is the cheapest to run. But that's good news for me because I got my Prius for a great price, and has good economy, 62 mpg easily achievable. The cheapest diesel was 1.5-2 times the price with the same mileage, madness and they were smaller cars!

But yes the Leaf is expensive, but check out U.K dealers.

noel100 wrote: »

I have been researching some form of heating system that could be compatible with solar PV. I don't know much about Infra red heaters. They resemble thin radiators that can be placed on the wall or ceiling. They should heat the walls and floor of the house like sun rays on a summers day releasing heat. This could be a way of reducing the cost of kerozene use.

I have no information on those, the thing is in summer you won't really need heat ? Battery storage is the best option, but expensive.

For storage for using an e.v you would need at least 20 kw/hrs + your normal electricity usage, for me that would be a total of 26 kw/hrs a day.

You would need 48 volts x 900 amp hrs of storage = 43,200 kw/hrs of storage - 30% reserve to allow much greater cycle life for 30,240 amp/hrs storage, lithium batteries, probably LiFeP04. Much better batteries on the way!

That is going to be one expensive battery, that's why it's soooooo much better and cheaper to use the e.s.b as the battery, which is practically free when you think about it ?

One alternative is just to buy enough batteries for your normal electricity usage and use the grid as the main battery, have priority to the battery bank obviously. So I would need 7800 watt hours of storage for my daily needs including the reserve of about 30%. That would cost far less! about 6,000 Euro's shipped, possibly cheaper if I can find a closer than china supplier at a decent price!

noel100 wrote: »

I believe that we are heading into a future of high energy prices and unstable supply. want to secure EV car & solar panels and heat source.

I agree, only the Irish Government is responsible for most of the increases, the fluctuating fuel prices would be largely unnoticed without all the taxes applied to fuel!

noel100 wrote: »

I know from what I have read on Micro generation from ESB that they will only except a total of 6000KW. I presume that is the yearly amount they will take from you.

WOW I didn't know that, I would expect to generate a lot more with a 5kw system. All the more reason to use it for heating or e.v. I would find a way. I would heat the fish in the river beside me before I would give it to the E.S.B for free!

noel100 wrote: »

I'm surprised that you are getting over 9000Kw from a 5.5Kw system.
Could you tell me about the system you have, Did you purchase panels and inverters separately. Did you have a contractor install system.

Me ? I'm not. I've not got solar P.V I was basing those figures on what I would expect to generate at a minimum on a cloudy day from a 5kw system over the amount of daylight hours in winter and summer combined. Not taking into account sunny days.

noel100 wrote: »

I was in contact with a broker in Germany that was willing to sell me a complete system @ $1.75/watt including cables , roofing brackets German 210watt panels and power one inverter including delivery. Wasn't a bad price but problem is German manufacturers can't compete against Chinese and sell for a premium. This worries me about the Warranty etc.

Well the German Solar P.V is heavily subsidised. I would look for the most mature companies that have been there a longer time. I guess there are no guarantees that any company will be hear in 20-25+ years these days! By that time Solar will be cheap as a bag of chips and your old e.v battery will be your storage!

I know Germany has better summers than here, but seriously they do have lots of cloudy days too. And every time I go over I see roofs full of panels and has anyone ever seen an average German roof ? Again Ireland has not got weather that is unique only to Ireland contrary to what we believe it isn't the darkest wettest or windiest place on earth!

freddyuk

I agree on average over the year you may get that output. However my system at 2.66kw will tick over at only 2-300w on a dull day. Sun comes out and I get 2kw- in January.
My point was that if you do not control the actual import then you can quickly negate the advantage by importing to charge the EV during the day when it is expensive. If you have a decent controller that will not import power when the PV is insufficient you can make a gain by maximising the PV input. If the EV is charged up in the morning by importing most of the energy and then the afternoon is sunny the PV is wasted. I know you are working this on the basis of 9c export payment but if it can be managed you will gain more by only using free energy BUT the EV needs to be charged up and ready to go so that is the trade off. I am looking at a sophisticated energy management system which may assist. It is not on the market yet but I think it will be a big benefit to controlling this situation as it will be programmable for individual demands.

freddyuk

freddyuk wrote: »

I agree on average over the year you may get that output. However my system at 2.66kw will tick over at only 2-300w on a dull day. Sun comes out and I get 2kw- in January.
My point was that if you do not control the actual import then you can quickly negate the advantage by importing to charge the EV during the day when it is expensive. If you have a decent controller that will not import power when the PV is insufficient you can make a gain by maximising the PV input. If the EV is charged up in the morning by importing most of the energy and then the afternoon is sunny the PV is wasted. I know you are working this on the basis of 9c export payment but if it can be managed you will gain more by only using free energy BUT the EV needs to be charged up and ready to go so that is the trade off. I am looking at a sophisticated energy management system which may assist. It is not on the market yet but I think it will be a big benefit to controlling this situation as it will be programmable for individual demands.

Yes charging while your e.v is at home would be better using the solar to full advantage, but for those working you got to import it at night, but you are still getting 9 cent and paying 8 cent ? so that's the one big advantage because batteries to store all that energy would be expensive.

You are getting 2-300 watts for a 2.6 system so about 1-1.5 kw for a 5kw system based on that data ? not bad really for winter and 2kw on a sunny day, so yeah solar does have real potential.

A hybrid system of wind and solar P.V would be much better is you had the space. It's a pity the e.s.b will not pay for more than 9000kw/hrs per year that's madness, it's also a pity wind turbine installation costs such massive prices! Much more expensive than solar.

freddyuk

Give it a couple of years and the EV's will have PV integrated systems. Asola make panels for the auto market. They are high efficiency but of course expensive. I am sure EV's are not viable for the majority yet but they are likely to be the future unless the fuel cell get's in first. We are developing at a fantastic rate but there are economic and political issues which will hold it all back.
Why would ESB want you to generate all your own energy? They are making the right noises without any real commitment.
Wind is expensive because it has moving parts - that can wear out or fail catastrophically.

freddyuk

freddyuk wrote: »

Give it a couple of years and the EV's will have PV integrated systems. Asola make panels for the auto market. They are high efficiency but of course expensive. I am sure EV's are not viable for the majority yet but they are likely to be the future unless the fuel cell get's in first. We are developing at a fantastic rate but there are economic and political issues which will hold it all back.
Why would ESB want you to generate all your own energy? They are making the right noises without any real commitment.
Wind is expensive because it has moving parts - that can wear out or fail catastrophically.

I doubt any solar panel the size of an ev roof would ever offer any real charge?

You are right they are not viable just yet only for a few that can afford them, but we need them badly with the cost of fuel!

I would pay for a 2nd hand one at a decent price as it would save me nearly 3 grand in fuel a year, I would rather pay more for a decent e.v than have to buy higher mileage ice cars that cost a fortune to run.

I believe the kestrel wind turbines are probably the best out there ? They seem to generate a lot of energy in high winds compared to a lot of turbines sold by some Irish installers that face away from high winds rather than actively controll blade speed and so generating a lot of energy even in stormy conditions, but omg the price!

But anyway solar is dropping so fast no one will care about expensive turbines, they will sooner or later have to reduce prices too or everyone will just use solar especially when e.v batteries become available for storage.

Fuel cells still have the problem of needing large amounts of energy to make the hydrogen. And that can be much more efficiently put into batteries. Fuel cells also have a limited life like batteries

In a few years batteries will be much better and charge in 5 mins.

Remember 250 mile range is not the problem, it's cost. Look at the tesla model s.

freddyuk

"I doubt any solar panel the size of an ev roof would ever offer any real charge?"

I am going to remind you of that in 5 years time!!:)

noel100

Thanks Mad-lad for the answer

By installing 5Kw of panels you should be generating 4160KW of electricity for the year.
use this link, place the flag on where you live and how many kw you want to install and click calculate. Play with the URL I don't think it is far off what you can generate.
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php

I would only install Chinese solar panels as I believe they are the best in quality & value & efficiency. Some of the manufacturers are producing 265-285watt panels. This reduces the cost of install and if you have a small roof more power produced.

Im looking into smart metering where I can divert power produced by solar into heat like the immersion or heating the house. I understand I don't need to heat in the summer but If I could use the power to heat the house & water during the day during winter and flick a switch during the summer and sell the excess back to the ESB. I would like to use the power I generate for my own use. A storage device isn't available yet but some time in the future.
China has built there first 36MW battery size of a factory.
link http://goo.gl/tfeHo

I know that Chinese are manufacturing air conditioning units completely powered by solar panels and the are huge sellers. Cost is expensive but could be an option to heat or cool down your home.

brophis

noel100 wrote: »

Thanks Mad-lad for the answer

By installing 5Kw of panels you should be generating 4160KW of electricity for the year.
use this link, place the flag on where you live and how many kw you want to install and click calculate. Play with the URL I don't think it is far off what you can generate.
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php

I would only install Chinese solar panels as I believe they are the best in quality & value & efficiency. Some of the manufacturers are producing 265-285watt panels. This reduces the cost of install and if you have a small roof more power produced.

Im looking into smart metering where I can divert power produced by solar into heat like the immersion or heating the house. I understand I don't need to heat in the summer but If I could use the power to heat the house & water during the day during winter and flick a switch during the summer and sell the excess back to the ESB. I would like to use the power I generate for my own use. A storage device isn't available yet but some time in the future.
China has built there first 36MW battery size of a factory.
link http://goo.gl/tfeHo

I know that Chinese are manufacturing air conditioning units completely powered by solar panels and the are huge sellers. Cost is expensive but could be an option to heat or cool down your home.

Would a combination of Solar thermal and solar pv be a better option if you want to use the energy to heat your house and water? With solar thermal efficiencies in the region of 70% and solar pv around 20% being generous. You'd need a heat pump with a cop of 3 or 4 to up the efficiency.

Do-more

brophis wrote: »

Would a combination of Solar thermal and solar pv be a better option if you want to use the energy to heat your house and water? With solar thermal efficiencies in the region of 70% and solar pv around 20% being generous. You'd need a heat pump with a cop of 3 or 4 to up the efficiency.

There are a few manufacturers now producing hybrid solar thermal/PV panels all in one. The solar thermal element cools the PV panel so increasing efficiency.

The only possible problem with this approach is if you have a roof full of hybrid panels you will then be producing far too much hot water. It might however suit someone who is looking at incorporating an inter seasonal store into their home.

I haven't priced these units but I strongly suspect that they don't offer an economic payback at this stage.

I find the whole question of PV panels much like buying a PC or other electronic equipment, do you dive in now or wait for the next development?

For me the economic argument says wait a few years. Just look at the price and technology development of flat panel TV's. For a 32" lcd tv we are now at a price level of 25-30% of the level just 3 years ago and better specs to boot.

I have no idea if we are going to see the same evolution in prices with PV but I certainly know that the technology is still evolving at a fast pace and prices are still falling.

Once we fall through the threshold where it makes economic sense for every home to have PV, supply and demand will rocket.

I'll have about 85m2 of south east facing roof space waiting for the day, but my feeling is that we are still 3 - 5 years away from the point where unsubsidised solar PV will offer a reasonable payback.