Solar VP - Lots of questions - Rebates and Feed In Tariffs, Past experience ???

McGilla

Hi guys,

I'm new to this section, and I've lots of questions for anyone who is interested or patient enough to answer.

I have recently returned from a year of travelling in Australia, where Solar VP is seeing massive growth due to a great feed in tariff, and also a large rebate on the cost of installation ($7,000 approx).

I was told Scotland had produced more solar electricity than Australia up until late 2009, as the Australians hadn't invested in Solar VP!
-despite the difference in climate

I look at Ireland economic problems, and find myself screaming - "Why aren't we doing this if Scotland can!
We have the same cloudy climate, we import nearly all of our energy, this cost is always rising!

So what Im asking is?

-Is there a Net Feed-in Tariff / What is the rate?
-Is there a grant or rebate for installation costs?
- Does solar VP really work in Irish conditions?
-Have you installed a system?
- Are you happy with your return on investment?
- Any other opinion or comment (usefull links welcome!)

Many thanks in advance for your input!

Carlow52

How are you taking the meds?
Intra-, orally or aurally?

What is VP or are you actually taking the P or is it just virtual?

Re links
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/index_en.htm
http://www.pvresources.com/PVPowerPlants.aspx
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php
For Oz vs Haggis listen to
http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id16.html

quentingargan

-Is there a Net Feed-in Tariff / What is the rate?
Yes, but not nearly as generous as the UK. They had a feed in tariff of about 42p until recently. That was dropped to 21p, guaranteed for decades. Ours is 19c, for five years, no guarantees, and as things stand, falling to 9c after that.

-Is there a grant or rebate for installation costs?
Hope.

- Does solar VP really work in Irish conditions?
Yes, but only about half as well as it works in Spain for example.

-Have you installed a system?
Yes, but we rely more on wind at our home. I plan to supplement this with a lot more PV now that the prices have come down so much.

- Are you happy with your return on investment?
Not as an investment. We are happy to pay a little extra to have electricity that comes from renewable sources. I don't think that energy from sun and wind should have to compete commercially with fossil fuels that spread their true costs onto others affected by climate change and other forms of pollution.

- Any other opinion or comment (usefull links welcome!)
Do it if you want it, but don't think of it as an investment, because in Ireland the return is OK, but not stunning.

Many thanks in advance for your input

freddyuk

Just to clarify the difference in the schemes discussed. The UK system pays an index linked sum for 25 years based on total production. In addition an export tariff pays 3.3p per unit for any exported power. In Ireland you are only paid for exported generation @ 19c for a limited period. There is no payment for generated power (you just get the free usage of your own generation so saving buying it from the grid).
My 2.66kw system was producing 2.3kw yesterday when the sun finally poked it's head out. Once the new meter is installed I will not get any direct benefit of generating unless I do not use my total production. Currently my meter is reversing so a much better deal. The scheme is badly managed and poorly supervised. If I get hit with the new low user standing charge from ESB (Electric Ireland) I will go underground!

Coles

freddyuk wrote: »

Just to clarify the difference in the schemes discussed. The UK system pays an index linked sum for 25 years based on total production. In addition an export tariff pays 3.3p per unit for any exported power. In Ireland you are only paid for exported generation @ 19c for a limited period. There is no payment for generated power (you just get the free usage of your own generation so saving buying it from the grid).
My 2.66kw system was producing 2.3kw yesterday when the sun finally poked it's head out. Once the new meter is installed I will not get any direct benefit of generating unless I do not use my total production. Currently my meter is reversing so a much better deal. The scheme is badly managed and poorly supervised. If I get hit with the new low user standing charge from ESB (Electric Ireland) I will go underground!

Good Post Freddyuk, but a couple of clarifications.

The REFIT bonus only applies to 3000 kWhrs per year (worth €270 per annum), and it is possible to get reimbursed for energy exported to the grid.

Electric Ireland will be administrating the payment of the additional ESB support payment of (10 cents / kWh), for the first 3,000 kWh exported annually over a 5 year period, ending on the 5th anniversary of the contract start date.

The full monetary value of exported units will be credited to the Electric Ireland electricity account on an annual basis. If this results in an overall net credit on the account, the customer may contact us to request a cheque payment or alternatively leave the credit to offset future electricity charges.
Link to Electric Ireland/ESB Microgeneration scheme.

muffler

Carlow52 wrote: »

How are you taking the meds?
Intra-, orally or aurally?

What is VP or are you actually taking the P or is it just virtual?

Re links
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/index_en.htm
http://www.pvresources.com/PVPowerPlants.aspx
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php
For Oz vs Haggis listen to
http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id16.html

Infraction given. No more of this please.

freddyuk

Coles wrote: »

Good Post Freddyuk, but a couple of clarifications.

The REFIT bonus only applies to 3000 kWhrs per year (worth €270 per annum), and it is possible to get reimbursed for energy exported to the grid.

Yes so to clarify the 9c is payable beyond the 5 years but only for exported energy. So we produce the energy and sell it for 9c and Electric Ireland then sell it on for 18c BUT then they want to charge me 60.00 euro per year for doing that. So I have to manage my production and usage to ensure I use 2kwh per day, every day to make sure I am not penalised for having the system in the first place. I am not sure I can be bothered. I will end up using more energy; albeit mostly mine; so where is the logic? Quick switch on the immersion heater as we need to get over the 2kwh limit tonight!! Unless we are so far in credit it is not worth it but I will need software to monitor all this.
If I go off grid then Electric Ireland get zero. Everyone else will have to pay more to maintain their budget.
If battery technology ever cracks the storage issue then look out EI.

quentingargan

freddyuk wrote: »

am not sure I can be bothered. I will end up using more energy; albeit mostly mine; so where is the logic? Quick switch on the immersion heater as we need to get over the 2kwh limit tonight!! Unless we are so far in credit it is not worth it but I will need software to monitor all this.
If I go off grid then Electric Ireland get zero. Everyone else will have to pay more to maintain their budget.
If battery technology ever cracks the storage issue then look out EI.

There is a device which was invented to manage this and to ensure, by using heat dumps, that no electricity was exported, but that was in the days when ESB paid NOTHING for power exported. They very kindly gave you permission to "spill" your surplus energy onto the grid.;)

Using electricity from your PV to heat water is wasteful. It is a valuable primary energy and even if you only get 9c for power exported, you can heat your hot water using oil, gas or pellets for less than that in many cases.

I would be optimistic that the 10c top-up or a replacement will always be there. That may seem odd, but I think there is a general understanding that renewables need subsidising unless (until??) oil prices start to soar again.

freddyuk

If the income was worthwhile I would have an EMMA and a few more panels but frankly my immersion comment was tongue in cheek of course. My thermal kit will mitigate water heating.
I just find the whole thing frustrating as getting charged for cutting my energy consumption means Ireland is anti renewables on a domestic scale - much the same as the UK. The big energy suppliers are pulling all the strings in both countries.
If Iran closes Hormuz then watch the oil price.

Rogue_art

It seems the PV prices are coming down here!

If anyone is interested, i received an email newsletter offering a fully installed 1.5kW PV system for under €6k. Google 'elementary energy'.

freddyuk

€6,000 for 1.5kw!! No wonder it is not being taken up in Ireland. Can you provide a breakdown between kit and labour? Should be 1 man 2 days or 2 men 1 day + scaffolding or staging on a bungalow.
Every install site can be different of course but should not present insurmountable problems.
Find a decent independent installer (or roofer for the panels and electrician for the wiring). Do not use large companies who can sub contract the work.
An electrician can issue the certificate and get you on grid but they MUST have some photovoltaic experience/qualification as doing it wrong can have serious consequences.

Rogue_art

freddyuk wrote: »

€6,000 for 1.5kw!! No wonder it is not being taken up in Ireland. Can you provide a breakdown between kit and labour? Should be 1 man 2 days or 2 men 1 day + scaffolding or staging on a bungalow.
Every install site can be different of course but should not present insurmountable problems.
Find a decent independent installer (or roofer for the panels and electrician for the wiring). Do not use large companies who can sub contract the work.
An electrician can issue the certificate and get you on grid but they MUST have some photovoltaic experience/qualification as doing it wrong can have serious consequences.

kit cost was about €3700 (Ex. VAT) for everything (panels, mounting system, inverter, DC cables etc.). but if you are buying the kit only (without install the VAT rate would be 23% as opposed to 13% on an install, so when you add VAT in = €4551 you are edging close to the installed (hassle free) cost of €6k.
Somehow i think there would be more than a days work for 2 men to do it right, unless you are just lashing it in and to hell with the consequences!

flash1080

Rogue_art wrote: »

kit cost was about €3700 (Ex. VAT) for everything (panels, mounting system, inverter, DC cables etc.). but if you are buying the kit only (without install the VAT rate would be 23% as opposed to 13% on an install, so when you add VAT in = €4551 you are edging close to the installed (hassle free) cost of €6k.
Somehow i think there would be more than a days work for 2 men to do it right, unless you are just lashing it in and to hell with the consequences!

It shouldn't take more than 1 day for 2 men.

fclauson

ESB reference for payments

http://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/price-plans/micro-generation-scheme.jsp

nogoodnamesleft

How many people that have installed PV in Ireland have actually made a accurate calculation the return on there investment for purchasing the PV panels in the 1st place.

I cant see it being a viable being honest. With the average irradiance in Ireland being a lot lower than that of Oz which will linearly effect the current of the cells and hence the power output.

Even thou the cells are fairly robust the also suffer from weathering depending on the PV material used. I wonder how the will stand up to gale force wind and torrential rain we get here over a 15-20 year period.

quentingargan

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

How many people that have installed PV in Ireland have actually made a accurate calculation the return on there investment for purchasing the PV panels in the 1st place.

I cant see it being a viable being honest.

I would agree that it is not profitable, but for some people, the viability of a project is more than a straight cash return on investment. Personally, I would be happy to pay a premium price for my electricity to come from renewable resources, and I don't think every clean technology should have to compete on a pure cash basis with fossil fuels donated to us for free by millions of years of decomposing matter, and the combustion of which has unknown consequences.

If you work out the 10 year running & depreciation cost of a hybrid car compared to a diesel car of the same size, I think you'll also find that there aren't cost savings there either.

I would say get solar PVs if you like the idea of having clean electricity and doing your bit. But if you want to invest in something with a guaranteed return, eh... property? shares? mattress?

abyss

From my calculations it's not really profitable for long period of time.
My calculation for comparable to Ireland (1000W/m2) sample rea shows:
1 square meter receive maximally 1006kWh sun energy per year (this will be done with sun tracking).
For same 1 sq. meter positioned S45 it will be 974kWh (S30 - 972kWh).
In case I have solar cells with efficiency 16% (popular, but cheap one) it will be respectively 161kWh/PA with tracking and 156kWh/PA without tracking system. Note, in fact there will be less energy transfered to ESB, as we need use tie grid inverter, and wiring between panels and inverter have resistance/loss (few % +next % less).
If price what we have receive from ESB is 9c/kWh it will be totally Є14.49/PA for model with tracking and Є14.04/PA.
And now simple calculation: how many years you need to return your installation if you receive Є14.04 per year????
Even if my calculation is erroneous in range 100% it's still not profitable (in this way) for long time.

brophis

That calc is fairly off so you might try this link: http://forms.sei.ie/calc/seicalculator.html

flash1080

At a rough estimate, you'd be looking at around a 20 year payback period with the FIT at €0.09, assuming you're exporting the vast majority of electricity produced because of course it's net metered.

abyss

brophis wrote: »

That calc is fairly off so you might try this link: http://forms.sei.ie/calc/seicalculator.html

Mentioned calculator is for heating system (water based tubes/panels) and not for PV (Photo Voltaic). Heating systems have efficiency in 80% range, so they are 5 times more efficient in heating. Only problem with them is simple: they don't supply electricity.

My calculation was based on hourly recorded average data from years 1971-2000 (recorded in standard format ISO) Located 53.06 N and with similar total sun kWh/m^2/Per Annum as in Ireland.
Both direct and ambient light was recorded and calculated.

brophis

abyss wrote: »

brophis wrote: »

That calc is fairly off so you might try this link: http://forms.sei.ie/calc/seicalculator.html

Mentioned calculator is for heating system (water based tubes/panels) and not for PV (Photo Voltaic). Heating systems have efficiency in 80% range, so they are 5 times more efficient in heating. Only problem with them is simple: they don't supply electricity.

My calculation was based on hourly recorded average data from years 1971-2000 (recorded in standard format ISO) Located 53.06 N and with similar total sun kWh/m^2/Per Annum as in Ireland.
Both direct and ambient light was recorded and calculated.

Sorry, my mistake, I posted in haste earlier. I see that your calculation was only based on 1 m2 which would explain why the €14 seems so small. The time isn't right for solar pv to cover its investment in Ireland just yet but not everyone has financial motivations I guess.

BryanF

quentin, what do you reckon, is it viable to buy the kit and DIY install PV? or at what point (cost per€) will PV be an option?

abyss

brophis wrote: »

The time isn't right for solar pv to cover its investment in Ireland just yet but not everyone has financial motivations I guess.

PV seems to be not good idea as financial investment, but is "green" and you have no bill to pay for produced energy.
Actually I plan to build my own, test panels (approx three 3' by 2' each) to compare theory with practice, but first have to finish my hot air heating system - from 64 empty cans

freddyuk

abyss wrote: »

PV seems to be not good idea as financial investment, but is "green" and you have no bill to pay for produced energy.
Actually I plan to build my own, test panels (approx three 3' by 2' each) to compare theory with practice, but first have to finish my hot air heating system - from 64 empty cans

Save yourself the bother and buy a couple of 80 watt MCS approved panels with know output so you are starting from a baseline. If you make your own how will you then use that information based on what is available in the market place? The panels are made to last 25+ year and are assembled in conditions you will never be able to achieve. The panels are cheap now.
PM me if you want more info.

darkmaster2

I have just had a Grid tied 3Kw Solar PV system installed and it is working very well So far so good! Even on cloudy miserable days this time of year it is producing a couple of hundred watts, and when the sun is out its up around the 1.5 to 2Kw mark.

I am just waiting now for ESB/Electric Ireland to install an import/export meter. At the moment the old meter is spinning backwards on a nice bright day, nice to see!

just do it

darkmaster2 wrote: »

I have just had a Grid tied 3Kw Solar PV system installed and it is working very well So far so good! Even on cloudy miserable days this time of year it is producing a couple of hundred watts, and when the sun is out its up around the 1.5 to 2Kw mark.

I am just waiting now for ESB/Electric Ireland to install an import/export meter. At the moment the old meter is spinning backwards on a nice bright day, nice to see!

Good for you!

Can I ask what the system set you back? It will be interesting to see how it works out for you....

darkmaster2

just do it wrote: »

Good for you!

Can I ask what the system set you back? It will be interesting to see how it works out for you....

It cost around the 10k mark for the system. I'll post up some stats over the next year. Should be interesting.

All I can say is that it is a very non invasive system to get in. I was considering a wind turbine, but with possible neighbour troubles and planning etc, PV seemed the safer option. I would like to supplement it with a small turbine later on, but thats for another time.

Coles

@darkmaster2, What's your expected production per annum? 3500 kWHrs or thereabouts?

abyss

Darkmaster2: details and photos, please !

darkmaster2

Coles wrote: »

@darkmaster2, What's your expected production per annum? 3500 kWHrs or thereabouts?

Im not sure to be honest, but that would be great if it got up around the 3500 kWHrs mark. The roof is almost directly south facing and the angle is pretty ideal too, so all depends on the amount of clouds in the sky.

abyss wrote: »

Darkmaster2: details and photos, please !

I have attached a couple of photos.

The Panels are Sharp and the inverter is an SMA sunny boy 3000

L driver

Hello,
Sorry for jumping on board but what is roughly your ROI at current rates? 25- 30years?