Solar VP - Lots of questions - Rebates and Feed In Tariffs, Past experience ???

McGilla

Hi guys,

I'm new to this section, and I've lots of questions for anyone who is interested or patient enough to answer.

I have recently returned from a year of travelling in Australia, where Solar VP is seeing massive growth due to a great feed in tariff, and also a large rebate on the cost of installation ($7,000 approx).

I was told Scotland had produced more solar electricity than Australia up until late 2009, as the Australians hadn't invested in Solar VP!
-despite the difference in climate

I look at Ireland economic problems, and find myself screaming - "Why aren't we doing this if Scotland can!
We have the same cloudy climate, we import nearly all of our energy, this cost is always rising!

So what Im asking is?

-Is there a Net Feed-in Tariff / What is the rate?
-Is there a grant or rebate for installation costs?
- Does solar VP really work in Irish conditions?
-Have you installed a system?
- Are you happy with your return on investment?
- Any other opinion or comment (usefull links welcome!)

Many thanks in advance for your input!

Carlow52

How are you taking the meds?
Intra-, orally or aurally?

What is VP or are you actually taking the P or is it just virtual?

Re links
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/index_en.htm
http://www.pvresources.com/PVPowerPlants.aspx
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php
For Oz vs Haggis listen to
http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id16.html

quentingargan

-Is there a Net Feed-in Tariff / What is the rate?
Yes, but not nearly as generous as the UK. They had a feed in tariff of about 42p until recently. That was dropped to 21p, guaranteed for decades. Ours is 19c, for five years, no guarantees, and as things stand, falling to 9c after that.

-Is there a grant or rebate for installation costs?
Hope.

- Does solar VP really work in Irish conditions?
Yes, but only about half as well as it works in Spain for example.

-Have you installed a system?
Yes, but we rely more on wind at our home. I plan to supplement this with a lot more PV now that the prices have come down so much.

- Are you happy with your return on investment?
Not as an investment. We are happy to pay a little extra to have electricity that comes from renewable sources. I don't think that energy from sun and wind should have to compete commercially with fossil fuels that spread their true costs onto others affected by climate change and other forms of pollution.

- Any other opinion or comment (usefull links welcome!)
Do it if you want it, but don't think of it as an investment, because in Ireland the return is OK, but not stunning.

Many thanks in advance for your input

freddyuk

Just to clarify the difference in the schemes discussed. The UK system pays an index linked sum for 25 years based on total production. In addition an export tariff pays 3.3p per unit for any exported power. In Ireland you are only paid for exported generation @ 19c for a limited period. There is no payment for generated power (you just get the free usage of your own generation so saving buying it from the grid).
My 2.66kw system was producing 2.3kw yesterday when the sun finally poked it's head out. Once the new meter is installed I will not get any direct benefit of generating unless I do not use my total production. Currently my meter is reversing so a much better deal. The scheme is badly managed and poorly supervised. If I get hit with the new low user standing charge from ESB (Electric Ireland) I will go underground!

Coles

freddyuk wrote: »

Just to clarify the difference in the schemes discussed. The UK system pays an index linked sum for 25 years based on total production. In addition an export tariff pays 3.3p per unit for any exported power. In Ireland you are only paid for exported generation @ 19c for a limited period. There is no payment for generated power (you just get the free usage of your own generation so saving buying it from the grid).
My 2.66kw system was producing 2.3kw yesterday when the sun finally poked it's head out. Once the new meter is installed I will not get any direct benefit of generating unless I do not use my total production. Currently my meter is reversing so a much better deal. The scheme is badly managed and poorly supervised. If I get hit with the new low user standing charge from ESB (Electric Ireland) I will go underground!

Good Post Freddyuk, but a couple of clarifications.

The REFIT bonus only applies to 3000 kWhrs per year (worth €270 per annum), and it is possible to get reimbursed for energy exported to the grid.

Electric Ireland will be administrating the payment of the additional ESB support payment of (10 cents / kWh), for the first 3,000 kWh exported annually over a 5 year period, ending on the 5th anniversary of the contract start date.

The full monetary value of exported units will be credited to the Electric Ireland electricity account on an annual basis. If this results in an overall net credit on the account, the customer may contact us to request a cheque payment or alternatively leave the credit to offset future electricity charges.
Link to Electric Ireland/ESB Microgeneration scheme.

muffler

Carlow52 wrote: »

How are you taking the meds?
Intra-, orally or aurally?

What is VP or are you actually taking the P or is it just virtual?

Re links
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/index_en.htm
http://www.pvresources.com/PVPowerPlants.aspx
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php
For Oz vs Haggis listen to
http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id16.html

Infraction given. No more of this please.

freddyuk

Coles wrote: »

Good Post Freddyuk, but a couple of clarifications.

The REFIT bonus only applies to 3000 kWhrs per year (worth €270 per annum), and it is possible to get reimbursed for energy exported to the grid.

Yes so to clarify the 9c is payable beyond the 5 years but only for exported energy. So we produce the energy and sell it for 9c and Electric Ireland then sell it on for 18c BUT then they want to charge me 60.00 euro per year for doing that. So I have to manage my production and usage to ensure I use 2kwh per day, every day to make sure I am not penalised for having the system in the first place. I am not sure I can be bothered. I will end up using more energy; albeit mostly mine; so where is the logic? Quick switch on the immersion heater as we need to get over the 2kwh limit tonight!! Unless we are so far in credit it is not worth it but I will need software to monitor all this.
If I go off grid then Electric Ireland get zero. Everyone else will have to pay more to maintain their budget.
If battery technology ever cracks the storage issue then look out EI.

quentingargan

freddyuk wrote: »

am not sure I can be bothered. I will end up using more energy; albeit mostly mine; so where is the logic? Quick switch on the immersion heater as we need to get over the 2kwh limit tonight!! Unless we are so far in credit it is not worth it but I will need software to monitor all this.
If I go off grid then Electric Ireland get zero. Everyone else will have to pay more to maintain their budget.
If battery technology ever cracks the storage issue then look out EI.

There is a device which was invented to manage this and to ensure, by using heat dumps, that no electricity was exported, but that was in the days when ESB paid NOTHING for power exported. They very kindly gave you permission to "spill" your surplus energy onto the grid.;)

Using electricity from your PV to heat water is wasteful. It is a valuable primary energy and even if you only get 9c for power exported, you can heat your hot water using oil, gas or pellets for less than that in many cases.

I would be optimistic that the 10c top-up or a replacement will always be there. That may seem odd, but I think there is a general understanding that renewables need subsidising unless (until??) oil prices start to soar again.

freddyuk

If the income was worthwhile I would have an EMMA and a few more panels but frankly my immersion comment was tongue in cheek of course. My thermal kit will mitigate water heating.
I just find the whole thing frustrating as getting charged for cutting my energy consumption means Ireland is anti renewables on a domestic scale - much the same as the UK. The big energy suppliers are pulling all the strings in both countries.
If Iran closes Hormuz then watch the oil price.

Rogue_art

It seems the PV prices are coming down here!

If anyone is interested, i received an email newsletter offering a fully installed 1.5kW PV system for under €6k. Google 'elementary energy'.

freddyuk

€6,000 for 1.5kw!! No wonder it is not being taken up in Ireland. Can you provide a breakdown between kit and labour? Should be 1 man 2 days or 2 men 1 day + scaffolding or staging on a bungalow.
Every install site can be different of course but should not present insurmountable problems.
Find a decent independent installer (or roofer for the panels and electrician for the wiring). Do not use large companies who can sub contract the work.
An electrician can issue the certificate and get you on grid but they MUST have some photovoltaic experience/qualification as doing it wrong can have serious consequences.

Rogue_art

freddyuk wrote: »

€6,000 for 1.5kw!! No wonder it is not being taken up in Ireland. Can you provide a breakdown between kit and labour? Should be 1 man 2 days or 2 men 1 day + scaffolding or staging on a bungalow.
Every install site can be different of course but should not present insurmountable problems.
Find a decent independent installer (or roofer for the panels and electrician for the wiring). Do not use large companies who can sub contract the work.
An electrician can issue the certificate and get you on grid but they MUST have some photovoltaic experience/qualification as doing it wrong can have serious consequences.

kit cost was about €3700 (Ex. VAT) for everything (panels, mounting system, inverter, DC cables etc.). but if you are buying the kit only (without install the VAT rate would be 23% as opposed to 13% on an install, so when you add VAT in = €4551 you are edging close to the installed (hassle free) cost of €6k.
Somehow i think there would be more than a days work for 2 men to do it right, unless you are just lashing it in and to hell with the consequences!

flash1080

Rogue_art wrote: »

kit cost was about €3700 (Ex. VAT) for everything (panels, mounting system, inverter, DC cables etc.). but if you are buying the kit only (without install the VAT rate would be 23% as opposed to 13% on an install, so when you add VAT in = €4551 you are edging close to the installed (hassle free) cost of €6k.
Somehow i think there would be more than a days work for 2 men to do it right, unless you are just lashing it in and to hell with the consequences!

It shouldn't take more than 1 day for 2 men.

fclauson

ESB reference for payments

http://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/price-plans/micro-generation-scheme.jsp

nogoodnamesleft

How many people that have installed PV in Ireland have actually made a accurate calculation the return on there investment for purchasing the PV panels in the 1st place.

I cant see it being a viable being honest. With the average irradiance in Ireland being a lot lower than that of Oz which will linearly effect the current of the cells and hence the power output.

Even thou the cells are fairly robust the also suffer from weathering depending on the PV material used. I wonder how the will stand up to gale force wind and torrential rain we get here over a 15-20 year period.

quentingargan

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

How many people that have installed PV in Ireland have actually made a accurate calculation the return on there investment for purchasing the PV panels in the 1st place.

I cant see it being a viable being honest.

I would agree that it is not profitable, but for some people, the viability of a project is more than a straight cash return on investment. Personally, I would be happy to pay a premium price for my electricity to come from renewable resources, and I don't think every clean technology should have to compete on a pure cash basis with fossil fuels donated to us for free by millions of years of decomposing matter, and the combustion of which has unknown consequences.

If you work out the 10 year running & depreciation cost of a hybrid car compared to a diesel car of the same size, I think you'll also find that there aren't cost savings there either.

I would say get solar PVs if you like the idea of having clean electricity and doing your bit. But if you want to invest in something with a guaranteed return, eh... property? shares? mattress?

abyss

From my calculations it's not really profitable for long period of time.
My calculation for comparable to Ireland (1000W/m2) sample rea shows:
1 square meter receive maximally 1006kWh sun energy per year (this will be done with sun tracking).
For same 1 sq. meter positioned S45 it will be 974kWh (S30 - 972kWh).
In case I have solar cells with efficiency 16% (popular, but cheap one) it will be respectively 161kWh/PA with tracking and 156kWh/PA without tracking system. Note, in fact there will be less energy transfered to ESB, as we need use tie grid inverter, and wiring between panels and inverter have resistance/loss (few % +next % less).
If price what we have receive from ESB is 9c/kWh it will be totally Є14.49/PA for model with tracking and Є14.04/PA.
And now simple calculation: how many years you need to return your installation if you receive Є14.04 per year????
Even if my calculation is erroneous in range 100% it's still not profitable (in this way) for long time.

brophis

That calc is fairly off so you might try this link: http://forms.sei.ie/calc/seicalculator.html

flash1080

At a rough estimate, you'd be looking at around a 20 year payback period with the FIT at €0.09, assuming you're exporting the vast majority of electricity produced because of course it's net metered.

abyss

brophis wrote: »

That calc is fairly off so you might try this link: http://forms.sei.ie/calc/seicalculator.html

Mentioned calculator is for heating system (water based tubes/panels) and not for PV (Photo Voltaic). Heating systems have efficiency in 80% range, so they are 5 times more efficient in heating. Only problem with them is simple: they don't supply electricity.

My calculation was based on hourly recorded average data from years 1971-2000 (recorded in standard format ISO) Located 53.06 N and with similar total sun kWh/m^2/Per Annum as in Ireland.
Both direct and ambient light was recorded and calculated.

brophis

abyss wrote: »

brophis wrote: »

That calc is fairly off so you might try this link: http://forms.sei.ie/calc/seicalculator.html

Mentioned calculator is for heating system (water based tubes/panels) and not for PV (Photo Voltaic). Heating systems have efficiency in 80% range, so they are 5 times more efficient in heating. Only problem with them is simple: they don't supply electricity.

My calculation was based on hourly recorded average data from years 1971-2000 (recorded in standard format ISO) Located 53.06 N and with similar total sun kWh/m^2/Per Annum as in Ireland.
Both direct and ambient light was recorded and calculated.

Sorry, my mistake, I posted in haste earlier. I see that your calculation was only based on 1 m2 which would explain why the €14 seems so small. The time isn't right for solar pv to cover its investment in Ireland just yet but not everyone has financial motivations I guess.

BryanF

quentin, what do you reckon, is it viable to buy the kit and DIY install PV? or at what point (cost per€) will PV be an option?

abyss

brophis wrote: »

The time isn't right for solar pv to cover its investment in Ireland just yet but not everyone has financial motivations I guess.

PV seems to be not good idea as financial investment, but is "green" and you have no bill to pay for produced energy.
Actually I plan to build my own, test panels (approx three 3' by 2' each) to compare theory with practice, but first have to finish my hot air heating system - from 64 empty cans

freddyuk

abyss wrote: »

PV seems to be not good idea as financial investment, but is "green" and you have no bill to pay for produced energy.
Actually I plan to build my own, test panels (approx three 3' by 2' each) to compare theory with practice, but first have to finish my hot air heating system - from 64 empty cans

Save yourself the bother and buy a couple of 80 watt MCS approved panels with know output so you are starting from a baseline. If you make your own how will you then use that information based on what is available in the market place? The panels are made to last 25+ year and are assembled in conditions you will never be able to achieve. The panels are cheap now.
PM me if you want more info.

darkmaster2

I have just had a Grid tied 3Kw Solar PV system installed and it is working very well So far so good! Even on cloudy miserable days this time of year it is producing a couple of hundred watts, and when the sun is out its up around the 1.5 to 2Kw mark.

I am just waiting now for ESB/Electric Ireland to install an import/export meter. At the moment the old meter is spinning backwards on a nice bright day, nice to see!

just do it

darkmaster2 wrote: »

I have just had a Grid tied 3Kw Solar PV system installed and it is working very well So far so good! Even on cloudy miserable days this time of year it is producing a couple of hundred watts, and when the sun is out its up around the 1.5 to 2Kw mark.

I am just waiting now for ESB/Electric Ireland to install an import/export meter. At the moment the old meter is spinning backwards on a nice bright day, nice to see!

Good for you!

Can I ask what the system set you back? It will be interesting to see how it works out for you....

darkmaster2

just do it wrote: »

Good for you!

Can I ask what the system set you back? It will be interesting to see how it works out for you....

It cost around the 10k mark for the system. I'll post up some stats over the next year. Should be interesting.

All I can say is that it is a very non invasive system to get in. I was considering a wind turbine, but with possible neighbour troubles and planning etc, PV seemed the safer option. I would like to supplement it with a small turbine later on, but thats for another time.

Coles

@darkmaster2, What's your expected production per annum? 3500 kWHrs or thereabouts?

abyss

Darkmaster2: details and photos, please !

darkmaster2

Coles wrote: »

@darkmaster2, What's your expected production per annum? 3500 kWHrs or thereabouts?

Im not sure to be honest, but that would be great if it got up around the 3500 kWHrs mark. The roof is almost directly south facing and the angle is pretty ideal too, so all depends on the amount of clouds in the sky.

abyss wrote: »

Darkmaster2: details and photos, please !

I have attached a couple of photos.

The Panels are Sharp and the inverter is an SMA sunny boy 3000

L driver

Hello,
Sorry for jumping on board but what is roughly your ROI at current rates? 25- 30years?

abyss

darkmaster2 wrote: »

The Panels are Sharp and the inverter is an SMA sunny boy 3000

Thanks for photos. Very impressive installation.
What voltage has each panel? I'm trying to count cells - are there 10x6=60 of them on each from 12 panels? They looks like polycrystal type.

HI Everyone sorry to but in but this is a great discussion keep it going!

I installed one of those energy monitors on my meter. It is as accurate as I can measure. I flick on the kettle and it goes up 3kw, and so on. When I hit the main switch in the consumer unit it goes to 0.

It says my daily average is 6.2 kw/hrs per day!

So based on darkmaster 2's data 1.5-2kw is good on a winters sunny day ? That would generate a lot more then I require through any one day.

The plan eventually if I can move is to have a hybrid system of wind and solar, but wind turbine installations in Ireland seem outrageously expensive, I've seen 15000 Euro's + for a 3kw system meaning it costs a lot more than solar at this moment in time! And there are a lot of dodgy installers selling turbines not capable of some of our stormy gusts!

Darkmaster, can you tell me what the cost of the panels were ? they can be got from Germany for 86Cent watt, inc vat and If I'm reading that correctly, is amazing. I think I would get an ass kicking if I post the website ???

I'm just after looking at another site that says 97 cent per watt, and 1.17 per watt.

I have read that the price is to fall even further this year!

Seems like 10 grand for a 3kw system is expensive giving those prices ?

If you can now get solar panels for say 1 euro per watt, where does the 10 grand come in ? sure Inverter, cables, mounting brackets, labour etc, but is 10 grand a bit excessive ?

I remember 6 or 7 years ago a 250 watt panel would have cost 1000 Euro's!

If this keeps up there would be no reason not to get solar, it might even worry a lot of energy companies. I can't see it being allowed to continue that solar prices drop like this ?

My electric bills are about 400 ish per year, so not really worth it yet, But if the panels can be got for around 3 grand, how much should installation cost given an average terrace house ? or dorm bungalow ?

By the time I'm ready to install prices will be a lot lower, very interesting times!

By the way how much is the 9cent per kw/hr feed-in-tariff likely to amount up to over a year ? might help offset some of the costs.

This is obviously a route someone with an e.v should consider even more, provided of course you can charge at home during the day or store in batteries!

Sorry for the long post but I'm very interested in renewable energy!

darkmaster2

abyss wrote: »

Thanks for photos. Very impressive installation.
What voltage has each panel? I'm trying to count cells - are there 10x6=60 of them on each from 12 panels? They looks like polycrystal type.

The panel is a Sharp ND-R250A5

Deleted User wrote: »

Darkmaster, can you tell me what the cost of the panels were ? they can be got from Germany for 86Cent watt, inc vat and If I'm reading that correctly, is amazing. I think I would get an ass kicking if I post the website ???

I'm just after looking at another site that says 97 cent per watt, and 1.17 per watt.

I have read that the price is to fall even further this year!

Seems like 10 grand for a 3kw system is expensive giving those prices ?

If you can now get solar panels for say 1 euro per watt, where does the 10 grand come in ? sure Inverter, cables, mounting brackets, labour etc, but is 10 grand a bit excessive ?

Yeah, Im sure it is possible to save a fair bit by DIYing the install, but around 10K isn't that high if you have a look around at what installers are charging. Here is more or less the same kit

By the way how much is the 9cent per kw/hr feed-in-tariff likely to amount up to over a year ? might help offset some of the costs.

I havent worked out what will be going back into the grid from my system but ESB are giving a rate of 9c per Kwhr + an extra 10c per Kwhr for the next 5 years if the system is connected to the grid before the end of this month.

I saw panels for 84 cent per watt from Germany when buying 5kw of panels.

They advertise German made panels for 1.17 per watt, costing 5850, excluding shipping of course. For 5kw

I find it hard to believe that a 3kw system installed could cost 10 grand, even the link you provide costs 6000 Euro's for a 3kw system but as a kit including inverter. So that leaves 4 grand for installation which I think is very expensive!

Did you get a break down of the costs, for all the parts + installation ? if so would you mind sharing that information ?

But fair play to you for taking the big leap, If you had an Nissan Leaf you could charge for free on a sunny day, or it would go a good way towards charging it on a cloudy day. Using it for transport would pay back that 10 grand installation costs in a very short time, considering the increasing "tax" applied to petrol and diesel!

Some day I plan to be off grid and charge an E.V with a mix of solar and wind, I would probably be out during the day, and charging would be done at night, so if only using solar I would need to store it, and the leaf has a 24kw/hr battery, so I would need 300 amp/hrs of batteries at 48 volts. That is expensive. SO the hybrid system would give me the best of both worlds if going into the grid. The price of wind installations isn't getting cheaper though! If only there was a grant for solar and wind!

darkmaster2

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a 3kw system installed could cost 10 grand, even the link you provide costs 6000 Euro's for a 3kw system but as a kit including inverter. So that leaves 4 grand for installation which I think is very expensive!

Did you get a break down of the costs, for all the parts + installation ? if so would you mind sharing that information ?

That Kit I linked to is over €7k including vat, Im not sure what they charge for delivery, so that is extra too. i didnt get a breakdown in costs, but from looking around at UK installer sites, €10k for a 3Kw system was about average. A few months ago installers were charging around 14 - 15k for a 3kw system.

But fair play to you for taking the big leap, If you had an Nissan Leaf you could charge for free on a sunny day, or it would go a good way towards charging it on a cloudy day. Using it for transport would pay back that 10 grand installation costs in a very short time, considering the increasing "tax" applied to petrol and diesel!

Im thinking the same thing about the nissan leaf. It would be an ideal way to use the excess electricity produced. 30k for a car is a bit on the high side, i wonder will they drop substancially anytime soon?

Some day I plan to be off grid and charge an E.V with a mix of solar and wind, I would probably be out during the day, and charging would be done at night, so if only using solar I would need to store it, and the leaf has a 24kw/hr battery, so I would need 300 amp/hrs of batteries at 48 volts. That is expensive. SO the hybrid system would give me the best of both worlds if going into the grid. The price of wind installations isn't getting cheaper though! If only there was a grant for solar and wind!

Yeah, the price of turbines aint coming town antime soon, hopefully there will be some grant available in the future, but i wouldnt hold my breath. I too plan to someday live more or less without dependance on the grid, I think its entirely possible with a hybrid system.

E.V prices will come down, in a few years. Nissan are going to start building batteries and leaf's in the U.K next year and that will knock a few grand off the price. When Leaf II comes in 2015 ir's hard to know what they will do, maybe greater range, or more range as an optional extra, who knows! I would say they will have better range. If they can get 100 miles range at 70 mph that would be perfect for me and most people.

They have 10 min charging, but it's going to take a few years to make sure 100kw+ of electricity doesn't make anything explode. Then the already "few" fast chargers would have to be upgraded.

Induction charging, will be offered in 2013, and they are upgrading the home charger from 3kw to 6kw, charging the leaf from empty to full in 4 hours instead of 8 for this year (2012) model. My toothbrush takes a lot longer than that!!! My razor 2 hrs. My phone 2 hrs. My bike battery 2 hrs. So it won't be so bad to live with!

You can always add another 3kw to your system, and sell your 3kw inverter and upgrade to a 6kw. You can use a wireless adapter on a lot of those inverters so you can track exactly how much you are generating.

Going off grid is always going to cost because of batteries, but Lithium offers the best solution because even though it would be more expensive than lead acid, with lead acid you have to use only 30% capacity to get 5+ years. Lithium you can use 80% for many more cycles than lead acid, so in the long term it's better to go lithium.

As I said earlier, the leaf has a 24 kw/hr battery, but from reading reports on the net, uses only 20 to extend battery life, then you need enough storage to run your house. So 48 volts x 600 amp/hr = 28,800 watt/hrs of storage you would need, and keeping a buffer in the battery that you will not use, to extend life. It all gets expensive for now. But you see you would be probably working during the day when your solar is generating, so you would be giving it to the E.S.B for 9 cent and buying it off them for 8 charging on night tariff, so it would balance out in the end.

Your 3 kw solar best case sunny day might generate 2-2.5 kw over say 12 hours in summer, would generate 30 kw/hrs of energy. My daily average is 6.3
So that's 2.13 per day you would get from the e.s.b, only on sunny days of course, half that on cloudy days, and probably less than half in winter cloudy days! You could get more in the 16 or 17 hrs of daylight of summer if your panels could track the sun!

Wind would be a good mixture, but it's way too expensive and if solar keeps getting cheaper as fast, wind manufacturers will have no choice but to drop costs, but in Ireland it's thought that wind is the best option, in fact I think wind and solar together is best, 3kw solar and 3kw wind, if you have room and are allowed to install a turbine that is!

Does anyone know how the e.s.b pay you for electricity you generate in excess ? do they give you credit on bill or cheque ?

brendanf

freddyuk wrote: »

Just to clarify the difference in the schemes discussed. The UK system pays an index linked sum for 25 years based on total production. In addition an export tariff pays 3.3p per unit for any exported power. In Ireland you are only paid for exported generation @ 19c for a limited period. There is no payment for generated power (you just get the free usage of your own generation so saving buying it from the grid).
My 2.66kw system was producing 2.3kw yesterday when the sun finally poked it's head out. Once the new meter is installed I will not get any direct benefit of generating unless I do not use my total production. Currently my meter is reversing so a much better deal. The scheme is badly managed and poorly supervised. If I get hit with the new low user standing charge from ESB (Electric Ireland) I will go underground!

I know a guy with a 6kW wind turbine - he got hit with that low user charge...its an absolute disgrace

Coles

brendanf wrote: »

I know a guy with a 6kW wind turbine - he got hit with that low user charge...its an absolute disgrace

Have a read of this thread. ESB/Electric Ireland say they won't apply the charge on micro generators. Instead they'll just continue to take your clean renewable energy off you and sell it directly to your neighbour for more than twice the price. No transmission losses, no added cost burden on them. Pure profit. Nice.

Hey darkmaster2,

How is your system performing today being nice and bright ?

noel100

Thanks for the info, Please keep updated how you get on with microgeneration fee..

I have been looking at installing PV to the house.
I have been looking at possible ways to use the electricity for my personal use
rather than sell it at discount to the ESB.

I have been researching Infra red heaters and using set amount electricity yo heat water..

With the price of solar pv around €1/watt I have been thinking installing somewhere in the region of 7-10KW with to sunny boy inverters 3.5-5Kw .

Here is a German company that sell PV gives an Idea of prices
http://www.europe-solar.de/catalog/index.php?main_page=page_3

noel100

noel100 wrote: »

Thanks for the info, Please keep updated how you get on with microgeneration fee..

I have been looking at installing PV to the house.
I have been looking at possible ways to use the electricity for my personal use
rather than sell it at discount to the ESB.

I have been researching Infra red heaters and using set amount electricity yo heat water..

With the price of solar pv around €1/watt I have been thinking installing somewhere in the region of 7-10KW with to sunny boy inverters 3.5-5Kw .

Here is a German company that sell PV gives an Idea of prices
http://www.europe-solar.de/catalog/index.php?main_page=page_3

I don't think posting a link would go down well!

If you look you Will find a German company selling solar pc at 85 cent per watt in 5 kw quantities which is excellent.

You would need to find out about warrantys and what they actually guarntee.

Then arrange a deal with a local installer and maybe offer to give a hand with the heavy lifting or whatever to get the cost down.

Obviously the pay back is much shorter if you use an ev giving the current cost of petrol and diesel it makes perfect sense.

If you are out during the day then you sell it to esb. then buy it back 1 cent cheaper at night rate. so basically the esb is your big battery. brilliant!

Try and find about storage using lithium batteries. lifep04 has much greater life and Will be much smaller in size and Will be more expensive but cheaper in long run because they have a lot longer life.

The 5kw though is the way to go.

noel100

Sorry am I not supposed to post links,
I wasn't advertising anything but researching PV installations and what people are installing, I have plenty of information and links to different sites related to PV but wanted to know from an Irish perspective those who have installed and what problems they have encountered..

Regards PV install I would only install from a few suppliers, Chinese suppliers like Yingli, Canadian solar, Suntech, LDK and Trina solar. These module makers will be around in 10years time and longer.

I know from the German forums that PV installers can install at an all in cost around €1750-1950/Kw. This is due to economy of scale. Germany has installed over 20GW of solar panels so far.
Feed in tariff is being reduced to €0.165c/Kw 9th March12, Tariff at the moment is €0.22c/KW and giving yields 12-15%.
So Tariff of €0.09c is just under half of Germany at the moment which should represent 4-5% yield if you can get the install at less then €2000/kw.

Hi Noel,

Yeah we need a good source of installers that are not cowboys and just out to rip us off. If you find any let me know!

The E.S.B's 9 cent per kw/hr is low, but they do have to maintain the network etc. In the future they might not even give that!

The only sensible way of using solar is for E.V use or heating, for instance your 5 kw system even on a cloudy day should generate 2 kw+ and that over 8 hours is 16kw/hrs a day give or take and that is more than most homes would use in a day, my daily average is 6.2 kw/hrs per day.

The Nissan Leaf has a 24 kw/hr battery, you will never run it to empty and will have at least 2-3 kw/hrs left if you use it's max range a day. 80 ish miles 50-65 mph.

So if you generate 16 kw/hrs average a day that will significantly reduce your transportation costs and total energy costs.

Now the summer even in cloudy weather 2-2.5kw over 14 hours of usable light would be 28-35 kw/hrs. On a sunny day 4-4.5 kw over 14 hours becomes 56-63 kw/hrs providing way more than you would need and you could drive completely free.

If I were lucky enough to have the Nissan Leaf and used a full charge for getting to work, I would need 5 mins on the fast charger because it's range is about 80 miles at 50-55 mph and 65-70 miles at 60-65 mph based on real reports from owners and not so called motor journalists.

So based on 60-65 mph and less in a lot of cases on the N7 south in the evening I could just about make my 80-82 mile round trip, or from city west plug into the fast charger on belgard or the topaz behind bewley's at newlands cross for 5 mins to top up. Hardly inconvenient.

You could travel from Carlow town to The luas which is about 50 miles at 70 mph no problem and plug in to their charger and it's charged when you come back.

So out of your solar pv it's sending power to the E.S.B during the day and you buy it back at night rate 1 cent cheaper than they pay you.

At current fuel prices it will cost me 2860 per year to drive to work and back 80 miles a day.

If you have no solar system it will cost 1.60 for 20kw/hrs to charge the Leaf at night for 65-70 miles range and another few cent to top up on fast charger so say 2 Euro's per day brings my fuel bills down to 520 per year, and the 5 mins on the fast charger for my usage would be paid for by the excess generated by the solar.

My electricity usage is 2190 kw/hrs per year

The solar system could generate 9744 kw/hrs per year based on minimum generation and basing it on 6 months of summer and 6 of winter daylight hours, cloudy weather and generating only 2kw in winter per hour, and not including sun and full power.

So that leaves me with 7554 kw/ hrs after my normal usage.

The leaf per year would use 7800 kw/hrs per year based on my driving, so that pretty much means little or no fuel costs for me, saving me a good 3000 Euro's per year, total, for driving and house electricity meaning the 5kw solar p.v would pay back in 3.5 years based on 10,000 installation.

Yes you would still have to pay back the Nissan Leaf at 30,000, but for anyone that likes to spend 20-30 grand on a car might consider solar to reduce your energy bills, You can get a leaf in the U.K 2nd hand for 24,000 Euro's and no vrt!

Just by driving electric saves a lot of money, then you could always install wind turbine and run your heating, a hybrid system would be best!

Sorry about the long post and numbers. I do have a strange way of working or trying to work things out!

By the way the E.S.B only allow a max generation of 5.5 kw into their network, and say you need 3 phase for more, I don't understand this because you can take 10,000 + from the grid on single phase 220 volts!

Anyone know the reason for that ?

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

...So out of your solar pv it's sending power to the E.S.B during the day and you buy it back at night rate 1 cent cheaper than they pay you.

Watch this - not strictly true - you get charged an additioanl €50 for having a duel tariff meter - that skews the numbers a bit more

freddyuk

Deleted User wrote: »

By the way the E.S.B only allow a max generation of 5.5 kw into their network, and say you need 3 phase for more, I don't understand this because you can take 10,000 + from the grid on single phase 220 volts!

Anyone know the reason for that ?

The ESB network is a distribution system designed to distribute energy in a balanced way to the customers in any area via the distribution grid. If there is a large generator pumping power into the grid from the other direction and it cannot be used locally it can upset the system and cause supply problems and voltage fluctuations which affect other customers in the area. The 16 amp limit is supposed to avoid any issues but if lot's of small generators get established in a locality the Network will need upgrading to cope.

freddyuk

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi Noel,

Yeah we need a good source of installers that are not cowboys and just out to rip us off. If you find any let me know!

The E.S.B's 9 cent per kw/hr is low, but they do have to maintain the network etc. In the future they might not even give that!

The only sensible way of using solar is for E.V use or heating, for instance your 5 kw system even on a cloudy day should generate 2 kw+ and that over 8 hours is 16kw/hrs a day give or take and that is more than most homes would use in a day, my daily average is 6.2 kw/hrs per day.

The Nissan Leaf has a 24 kw/hr battery, you will never run it to empty and will have at least 2-3 kw/hrs left if you use it's max range a day. 80 ish miles 50-65 mph.

So if you generate 16 kw/hrs average a day that will significantly reduce your transportation costs and total energy costs.

Now the summer even in cloudy weather 2-2.5kw over 14 hours of usable light would be 28-35 kw/hrs. On a sunny day 4-4.5 kw over 14 hours becomes 56-63 kw/hrs providing way more than you would need and you could drive completely free.

If I were lucky enough to have the Nissan Leaf and used a full charge for getting to work, I would need 5 mins on the fast charger because it's range is about 80 miles at 50-55 mph and 65-70 miles at 60-65 mph based on real reports from owners and not so called motor journalists.

So based on 60-65 mph and less in a lot of cases on the N7 south in the evening I could just about make my 80-82 mile round trip, or from city west plug into the fast charger on belgard or the topaz behind bewley's at newlands cross for 5 mins to top up. Hardly inconvenient.

You could travel from Carlow town to The luas which is about 50 miles at 70 mph no problem and plug in to their charger and it's charged when you come back.

So out of your solar pv it's sending power to the E.S.B during the day and you buy it back at night rate 1 cent cheaper than they pay you.

At current fuel prices it will cost me 2860 per year to drive to work and back 80 miles a day.

If you have no solar system it will cost 1.60 for 20kw/hrs to charge the Leaf at night for 65-70 miles range and another few cent to top up on fast charger so say 2 Euro's per day brings my fuel bills down to 520 per year, and the 5 mins on the fast charger for my usage would be paid for by the excess generated by the solar.

My electricity usage is 2190 kw/hrs per year

The solar system could generate 9744 kw/hrs per year based on minimum generation and basing it on 6 months of summer and 6 of winter daylight hours, cloudy weather and generating only 2kw in winter per hour, and not including sun and full power.

So that leaves me with 7554 kw/ hrs after my normal usage.

The leaf per year would use 7800 kw/hrs per year based on my driving, so that pretty much means little or no fuel costs for me, saving me a good 3000 Euro's per year, total, for driving and house electricity meaning the 5kw solar p.v would pay back in 3.5 years based on 10,000 installation.

Yes you would still have to pay back the Nissan Leaf at 30,000, but for anyone that likes to spend 20-30 grand on a car might consider solar to reduce your energy bills, You can get a leaf in the U.K 2nd hand for 24,000 Euro's and no vrt!

Just by driving electric saves a lot of money, then you could always install wind turbine and run your heating, a hybrid system would be best!

Sorry about the long post and numbers. I do have a strange way of working or trying to work things out!

The issue you need to address is how you manage the PV production to coincide with the demand. If you plug the EV in and go off for the day and it turns cloudy you are drawing power from the grid and the numbers do not then add up?
The major issue with PV is knowing how to manage the usage as it cannot easily be stored. Water heating is one method and there are some devices to help with feeding any surplus into your DHW store. The same control is required for any store be it battery charging or storage heating. No point in investing in free energy and then buying extra off the grid because you can't control the generation/demand cycle. If you are not producing enough PV energy you want to turn appliances off that are drawing power and turn them on when power is available for free. Only then are you maximising the renewable energy option.

noel100

Thanks for the long post,

I've have looked at the Leaf, Nice car but won't be paying out that money for the car yet. I said I wait a couple of years and see if all the bugs knocked out of the car and better efficiency on the battery arrives. If they depreciate the way toyota prius have come down in price I will expect to pick a 3-4year old Leaf up for 60-70% less than original price.

I have been researching some form of heating system that could be compatible with solar PV. I don't know much about Infra red heaters. They resemble thin radiators that can be placed on the wall or ceiling. They should heat the walls and floor of the house like sun rays on a summers day releasing heat. This could be a way of reducing the cost of kerozene use.

I believe that we are heading into a future of high energy prices and unstable supply. want to secure EV car & solar panels and heat source.

I know from what I have read on Micro generation from ESB that they will only except a total of 6000KW. I presume that is the yearly amount they will take from you.

I'm surprised that you are getting over 9000Kw from a 5.5Kw system.
Could you tell me about the system you have, Did you purchase panels and inverters separately. Did you have a contractor install system.

I was in contact with a broker in Germany that was willing to sell me a complete system @ $1.75/watt including cables , roofing brackets German 210watt panels and power one inverter including delivery. Wasn't a bad price but problem is German manufacturers can't compete against Chinese and sell for a premium. This worries me about the Warranty etc.

freddyuk

noel100 wrote: »

Sorry am I not supposed to post links,
I wasn't advertising anything but researching PV installations and what people are installing, I have plenty of information and links to different sites related to PV but wanted to know from an Irish perspective those who have installed and what problems they have encountered..

Regards PV install I would only install from a few suppliers, Chinese suppliers like Yingli, Canadian solar, Suntech, LDK and Trina solar. These module makers will be around in 10years time and longer.

I know from the German forums that PV installers can install at an all in cost around €1750-1950/Kw. This is due to economy of scale. Germany has installed over 20GW of solar panels so far.
Feed in tariff is being reduced to €0.165c/Kw 9th March12, Tariff at the moment is €0.22c/KW and giving yields 12-15%.
So Tariff of €0.09c is just under half of Germany at the moment which should represent 4-5% yield if you can get the install at less then €2000/kw.

German FIT is going down to €0.195 for under 10kw rooftop systems. However this is a proposal at this stage.

freddyuk

freddyuk wrote: »

The issue you need to address is how you manage the PV production to coincide with the demand. If you plug the EV in and go off for the day and it turns cloudy you are drawing power from the grid and the numbers do not then add up?
The major issue with PV is knowing how to manage the usage as it cannot easily be stored. Water heating is one method and there are some devices to help with feeding any surplus into your DHW store. The same control is required for any store be it battery charging or storage heating. No point in investing in free energy and then buying extra off the grid because you can't control the generation/demand cycle. If you are not producing enough PV energy you want to turn appliances off that are drawing power and turn them on when power is available for free. Only then are you maximising the renewable energy option.

I based all those figures on cloudy only weather. That's why I would opt for the 5-5.5kw system.

Yes my figures could be out a little, and I bet they are way too low given the fact we actually do have sunny days.

2-2.5 kw out of a 5kw system should be more than possible on a cloudy day.

Regarding power management, dumping the excess into water heating is fine, but you would only be dumping that for a short enough time.

ALl this is fine if you are off grid, for which you would have a battery bank.

The e.s.b being your battery until batteries become cheaper.Even if the esb charge you 50 quid a year for the meter this is far less than the cost of petrol and diesel, you still buy back for 8 cent at night while you are generating during the day and you are at work or whatever.