Introduce Non-resident Irish tax base

murphaph

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, the (very thin) logic would be that you still continue to receive the benefts of being an Irish citizen; the passport, not needing a Visa to visit certain countries, use of consular facilities, the ability to come back here any time and be able to legally work straight away.

So therefore you should continue to pay some nominal tax to us, or else you should rescind the benefits you are getting.

If the right to vote was a core right amongst that lot, then I'd be ok paying some token tax for it.

It should be an opt-in system though. Taxing people just for being Irish (effectively what this would be, as passports already cost a fare few bob as it is and must cover their costs) would be grossly unfair. A vote would have to be a minimum entitlement, as would the right to claim social welfare upon returning to Ireland

syklops

Come to think of it, im already paying an emmigrant tax. Everytime I have to get a plane to see my family.

sarumite

Joe 90 wrote: »

Don't forget PS employees and politicians.

So the only people you want voting are those on middle to higher incomes who work in the private sector? Perhaps we could have an incremental system so that those who pay more taxes get more votes as well?

Joe 90

sarumite wrote: »

So the only people you want voting are those on middle to higher incomes who work in the private sector? Perhaps we could have an incremental system so that those who pay more taxes get more votes as well?

Or a cap on total tax paid?

MadsL

who the fug wrote: »

Also OP


Your effing mess, you pay for it

How is it MY mess?? You know nothing about my circumstances, in fact I rented the whole 15 years I was in Ireland, paid tax and advised others to rent as the housing market was overvalued and going to crash and campaigned against overdevelopment of Dublin and destruction of Heritage properties to feed the property frenzy. I was demonised as a nay sayer most of the time - two former colleagues are now deep (50%+) in negative equity, despite me advising strongly not to buy.

I have since emigrated. I won't be back, however many emigrants will return and doubtless will expect a certain level of public services. If you leave the country sucking taxpayers dry, where will the economic activity come from to maintain those services. I agree emigrees should have the vote, question is - would you be prepared to pay for it?

eire4

fluffer wrote: »

As an expat I find this suggestion offensive. In fact I heard that the Americans had to pay and I was offended on their behalf.

I know one American is rescinding his US citizenship over it.

WTF is that?? Do you mean charity tax?! Ireland is f*cked through no fault of mine. I made the decision to emigrate as I thought my career prospects were better elsewhere. Ireland is behind me.

Irish citizenship does not hold the same sway as US citizenship. If I get persecuted unfairly abroad, tough. If an American does, expect an aircraft carrier and a SEAL team to be parked off the coast of the offending nation.

Now if Ireland were to offer me the chance to pay PRSI in return for the safety of social services to fall back on; there's something.

An American living abroad only has to pay taxes on earned income above $91,500 based on 2011 numbers. Also income earned from dividends, interest, rental income, capital gains are not taxed or included in the above number so really you have to be making a pretty big number to actually get taxed as an American living abroad. I might also add that like every other EU country an American living abroad has the right to vote unlike an Irish citizen.

who the fug

MadsL wrote: »

How is it MY mess?? You know nothing about my circumstances, in fact I rented the whole 15 years I was in Ireland, paid tax and advised others to rent as the housing market was overvalued and going to crash and campaigned against overdevelopment of Dublin and destruction of Heritage properties to feed the property frenzy. I was demonised as a nay sayer most of the time - two former colleagues are now deep (50%+) in negative equity, despite me advising strongly not to buy.

I have since emigrated. I won't be back, however many emigrants will return and doubtless will expect a certain level of public services. If you leave the country sucking taxpayers dry, where will the economic activity come from to maintain those services. I agree emigrees should have the vote, question is - would you be prepared to pay for it?

This is a mess that those who stayed created and to go after people who left in the eighties for a dig out is a bit rich.


Who voted Bertie in three times
Who voted to join the Euro thus funding the piss up

Not my hangover, so not paying

As to going back, you be a having a giraffe.

ArphaRima

eire4 wrote: »

An American living abroad only has to pay taxes on earned income above $91,500 based on 2011 numbers. Also income earned from dividends, interest, rental income, capital gains are not taxed or included in the above number so really you have to be making a pretty big number to actually get taxed as an American living abroad. I might also add that like every other EU country an American living abroad has the right to vote unlike an Irish citizen.

Well the Americans I know would all earn well in excess of 200k basic so it does affect them. Highly educated and highly motivated individuals.
America is now losing them as a result of bad policy. Incidentally the one who is already dropping his citizenship is Irish-American so it will be to Ireland's gain.
Until we f€ck it up too.

MadsL

the one who is already dropping his citizenship is Irish-American

Wow, I'd really council him otherwise, he ain't getting a blue passport in future without some battle. I believe in holding as many passports as possible.

ArphaRima

I believe in holding as many passports as possible.

I would love to hold a number of passports as I live abroad but I would temper that view with any requirement for tax payment or national service.

I would hate to pay 10's of thousands of dollars a year for the limited benefit of dual/multiple nationality.

I would also not welcome the idea of having to partake in compulsory national military service (more common/likely than you'd think);even worse be called upon to fight a war for a country I have little affiliation with.

Also the benefits of nationality decrease the more you have. Eg an Irish-Irish would have more sympathy and support diplomatically than an Irish/Iranian if They were to be arrested in Lebanon for example on dubious charges.
->There was a story of an American of Thai descent arrested recently for lese-majeste(insulting the king). He made comments online while he was home in the US and they arrested him on entry to Thailand at the airport. He's facing years in a Thai jail. It stirred up diplomatic/journalistic circles but can you imagine the comparable outrage had been a "typical" Brad from California?

As for advising my American acquaintance - he's more than aware of the consequences.

jank

sarumite wrote: »

So no voting for Students, homemakers (I believe that is the 21st century PC term), those unemployed but genuinely looking for employment?

An interesting idea, but sounds absurd doesn't it? Now how about the emmigrant who worked and paid taxes all his working life in his place of birth, gets 0 say in anything to do with Ireland once he steps on that plane or boat, even though he STILL might be paying taxes there. Absurd right?

murphaph

jank wrote: »

An interesting idea, but sounds absurd doesn't it? Now how about the emmigrant who worked and paid taxes all his working life in his place of birth, gets 0 say in anything to do with Ireland once he steps on that plane or boat, even though he STILL might be paying taxes there. Absurd right?

So true. I'm in that boat (pun intended): paid taxes for years and still paying income tax on certain income in Ireland. Irish citizen, no vote. Great little country.

It suits the political classes that emigrees have no vote. People need to understand that.

Do people realise that even if they just go on hoiday for 2 weeks to Spain and happen to be there during an election, that they too will be disenfranchised of their democratic right to vote? That's how afraid of postal voting the political classes are.

In Germany if you're going on holidays you just tell them and they send you a special set of coloured envelopes, so you can vote anonymously through the post.

Ireland has postal voting for some select few (army, Gardai, embassy staff and registered disabled), but not ordinary voters, because then the questions would be asked: why can't I use the postal vote system after I've emigrated?!

eire4

murphaph wrote: »

So true. I'm in that boat (pun intended): paid taxes for years and still paying income tax on certain income in Ireland. Irish citizen, no vote. Great little country.

It suits the political classes that emigrees have no vote. People need to understand that.

Do people realise that even if they just go on hoiday for 2 weeks to Spain and happen to be there during an election, that they too will be disenfranchised of their democratic right to vote? That's how afraid of postal voting the political classes are.

In Germany if you're going on holidays you just tell them and they send you a special set of coloured envelopes, so you can vote anonymously through the post.

Ireland has postal voting for some select few (army, Gardai, embassy staff and registered disabled), but not ordinary voters, because then the questions would be asked: why can't I use the postal vote system after I've emigrated?!

A vald point. It is in the political establishments interest to continue to deny Irish born citizens living abroad the right to vote. Lets face it once again we are seeing so many of our young leaving in droves and the establishment are terrified of who they might vote for due to the fact that so many are leaving because they have no prospects at home.

professore

n900guy wrote: »

How about starting with allowing expatriates to vote like every other civilised country first and treat adult working citizens with respect, instead of trying to keep grabbing cash not just from the dwindling population of workers in Ireland but also those who chose or needed to emigrate.

The US treats it citizens as income generation units, and is the last place we should be emulating.

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run???? If we allowed emigrants to vote, FF would still be in power !

If you want to pay tax then fair enough, but it should be a fair whack to entitle you to vote, not some token amount.

Ireland has a HUGE expatriate population as a percentage of it's indigenous population compared to the "civilized" countries you refer to. It would completely skew the elections in favour of the gombeen politicians who throws the best shindigs in New York / Vancouver / Sydney at the taxpayers expense.

MadsL

professore wrote: »

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run???? If we allowed emigrants to vote, FF would still be in power !

If you want to pay tax then fair enough, but it should be a fair whack to entitle you to vote, not some token amount.

Ireland has a HUGE expatriate population as a percentage of it's indigenous population compared to the "civilized" countries you refer to. It would completely skew the elections in favour of the gombeen politicians who throws the best shindigs in New York / Vancouver / Sydney at the taxpayers expense.

Why not add an expatriate constituency, say 3 seats?

murphaph

professore wrote: »

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run???? If we allowed emigrants to vote, FF would still be in power

It wasn't expats that returned them to power time and time again, despite it being common knowledge that they were a corrupt party. Expats may have actually looked at FF and said "wtf?"

n900guy

professore wrote: »

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run???? If we allowed emigrants to vote, FF would still be in power !

Ireland's very unique position on postal voting for citizens (i.e., denying citizens the right to vote) may be contributing to the parish pump politics that prevails in the country.

Someone who is on a job for 3 months? Is this emigrating? A year? 10 years? 2 weeks? It doesn't matter - if you are not physically present in Ireland for even a day at the vote, even if you have paid taxes for decades, you are denied a postal vote. This is a normal right of citizenship for every other western democracy.

And yet we have people here ignoring democracy, but trying to grab the money. Sure fire way of making the population smaller...and smaller....as the years go by.

The matter comes down to:
- certain groups which maintain the status quo are allowed the postal vote
- most normal citizens are denied this
- postal voting of your country of citizenship while not resident is the the norm in western democracy
- a bunch of eejits reckon ignore the democracy "issue" and grab the money.

MysticalRain

An emigrant voting for FF would be the equivalent of a turkey voting for Christmas.

Does not compute...

jank

professore wrote: »

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run???? If we allowed emigrants to vote, FF would still be in power !

If you want to pay tax then fair enough, but it should be a fair whack to entitle you to vote, not some token amount.

Ireland has a HUGE expatriate population as a percentage of it's indigenous population compared to the "civilized" countries you refer to. It would completely skew the elections in favour of the gombeen politicians who throws the best shindigs in New York / Vancouver / Sydney at the taxpayers expense.

Yes, because that last poll of Irish people who live abroard returned how many FF TD's? One, thats right, just the one FF TD would have been returned if ONLY the emigrant vote was included. So your logic is plan $hite.

{cant remember that link or website}

I would be of the firm belief that emigrants would vote far more in the national favor rather than the pot hole fixing Jackie Healy Rae types that always gets returned. Might be selfish of me but I would rather vote for the person who has the national interest at heart then say someone who opens a local community hall. Nothing wrong with community halls but the thing is we return TD's to the Dail because of many community halls built across the land while the national interest is left in the cold. We should be putting the national interest first, always.

Head The Wall

professore wrote: »

If you want to pay tax then fair enough, but it should be a fair whack to entitle you to vote, not some token amount.

By your logic everyone that pays tax here should have the vote i.e all the immigrants, aliens etc

MadsL

Head The Wall wrote: »

By your logic everyone that pays tax here should have the vote i.e all the immigrants, aliens etc

Aliens?

eire4

professore wrote: »

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run???? If we allowed emigrants to vote, FF would still be in power !

If you want to pay tax then fair enough, but it should be a fair whack to entitle you to vote, not some token amount.

Ireland has a HUGE expatriate population as a percentage of it's indigenous population compared to the "civilized" countries you refer to. It would completely skew the elections in favour of the gombeen politicians who throws the best shindigs in New York / Vancouver / Sydney at the taxpayers expense.

Firstly Ireland is the only country in the EU that denies it's home born citizens living abroad the right to vote. As well as most of the rest of the developed world. Secondly the actually number of Irish born citizens living abroad is estimated to be about 800,000 hardly a huge number. Thirdly through various initiatives the Irish government has been looking to ex pats to help Ireland economically in various ways and this is a good idea. But certainly the current government attitude of put up and then shut up does nothing to maximise the positive potential the ex pat community can have for Ireland.
To my mind we should create a few constituencies in the Dail for ex pats to vote into and thus have a voice in the country. This would more fully engage Irish born citizens living abroad and encourage ownership of and a willingness to participate in the Ireland of today and tomorrow in a positive way.

ArphaRima

Thirdly through various initiatives the Irish government has been looking to ex pats to help Ireland economically in various ways and this is a good idea.

I agree it's a good idea to keep the Irish diaspora involved.

Taxation is just absolutely the wrong method.

323

professore wrote: »

Why the hell should people who are not living here have any say in how the country is run????

Lots of people living here have no say as it is as a postal vote is only available to a select few.
Moved home 6 years ago,(a huge mistake that may soon be rectified). However all my business is still outside Ireland and as it turned out have been abroad on business at the time of every election since so therefore have no say, no hope of emigrants getting a vote.

miambilli

Passport Tax.

Entirely reasonable. Don't want the passport - don't pay the tax.

scotty_irish

miambilli wrote: »

Passport Tax.

Entirely reasonable. Don't want the passport - don't pay the tax.

I'd post it back in the morning.

I, like most emigrants, have been forced from the country. We are already doing our patriotic duty by not sponging off the state.

What about the bag of foreign earned cash I spend when I visit Ireland? Is that not a contribution?

My country has been messed up for the foreseeable future by people I never voted for. I will never again live in ireland because there's no future there for me.

Passport or emigrant tax? Get to f*ck. Take my passport and I'll get myself citizenship of a country which doesn't squander the future of its youth and which is governed in an intelligent manner, not on the basis of ah shur it'll be grand.

FlashD

I already pay tax in the country that i'm living and working, I think that is more than fair.

Idea scraped.

Regards.

s20101938

Will they ever stop at thinking of more ways to bleed us? What's next, life tax?

mandrake04

What about a whinger tax, they might actually straight the gaff out with that little earner.

murphaph

miambilli wrote: »

Passport Tax.

Entirely reasonable. Don't want the passport - don't pay the tax.

With the current cost of a passport, I'd say it is almost a tax. It certainly doesn't cost that much to renew a passport anyway. Maybe the first passport should cost more, as certain checks as to eligibility have to be made.

Anyway, if Irish passports start costing €500 I'll apply for German citizenship, when my current Irish passport expires.