Cris "Cyborg" Santos fails drug-test, banned for 1 year.

trev77

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Putting a list of convicted cheats up doesn't prove that MMA is "full" of steroid cheats, it just shows that the testing system has caught people 33 times. That's 33 out of how many professional fighters? Put the same up for baseball, football, rugby and American football and the amount of guys using doesn't prove anything either.

I think largely with the whole steroid issue, the problem is that the average keyboard jockey has simply no concept of how much work and training it takes to be an elite level athlete or fighter, and since (I'm going to generalise horribly) they're likely not to have any understanding of what it takes to be extremely fit, it's much easier to be a cynic and call "steroids!" every time.[/

Yup very different to your "summary".
Now you say that the average keyboard jockey has simply no concept of how much work and training it takes to be an elite level athlete or fighter.
From this it sounds as if you do have experience training elite level fighters?
Do u train elite level fighters?
If you do your entitled to undermine the average keyboard jockey.

Killme00

00benski wrote: »

Dont be so Naive Killme00, steriod abuse is rampant all over the states, and most of the world in all professional sports ( MMA included ) so your prob best off losing the attitude, take a bit of your own advice back

What attitude? Is sensationalist a word, if it was I would say you have what it takes to write for the News of the World.

Killme00

Overeem is without doubt on them as well.

Isn't speculation about drug use also against the forum charter?

In either case, due to the sheer volume of moronity abound in this forum, the conversation about steroids won't get very far.

El Guapo!

Killme00 wrote: »

Lads, with your extensive knowledge of steroids, perhaps you can tell us who else is using steroids in modern mma?

I never claimed to have extensive knowledge of steroids. I have very little knowledge of steroid use since I have never used them and I know personally of only one person who has used them.

In my post I simply said she looked like she was taking something. And I based that purely on looks alone. She always has a very ripped and muscular physique for a woman compared to other female fighters. And her voice always seemed deep for a woman.

But I always gave her the benefit of the doubt as these things could al be just the way she is made up genetically. As Barry rightly said, all proffesional athletes are innocent until proven guilty when it comes to things like this. And it's the job of the athletic commission to do the investigations...not us.

All I meant by my post was that when I heard that she tested positive I wasn't as surprised as I would've been if it was another fighter.

Barry.Oglesby

Trev, if that is your real name... you can continue to read whatever you want into my posts if you like, but I think what I said is clear enough and no one else seems to have been either offended or has misunderstood. I've also explained my stance and my experience in more detail than I usually care to, but your bit between your teeth seems to be the fact that I don't train elite level fighters, which I plainly don't, but you seem to want to get me to say that. So I can only assume you want to take this opportunity to try to get at me in some way so here you are:

I just got pwned on the interwebs by Trev77 because I don't train anyone in the UFC.

Thanks,

Barry

Killme00

Dean09 wrote: »

I never claimed to have extensive knowledge of steroids. I have very little knowledge of steroid use since I have never used them and I know personally of only one person who has used them.

In my post I simply said she looked like she was taking something. And I based that purely on looks alone. She always has a very ripped and muscular physique for a woman compared to other female fighters. And her voice always seemed deep for a woman.

But I always gave her the benefit of the doubt as these things could al be just the way she is made up genetically. As Barry rightly said, all proffesional athletes are innocent until proven guilty when it comes to things like this. And it's the job of the athletic commission to do the investigations...not us.

All I meant by my post was that when I heard that she tested positive I wasn't as surprised as I would've been if it was another fighter.

So, Abs and a deep voice equals steroid use. Like I said, moronity is abound.

the drifter

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I just got pwned on the interwebs by Trev77 because I don't train anyone in the UFC.

Thanks,

Barry

That should so be your sig

El Guapo!

Killme00 wrote: »

So, Abs and a deep voice equals steroid use. Like I said, moronity is abound.

I don't think what I said was moronic in any way.
It's well known that steroid use can cause increased levels of testosterone in the body which can result in the deepening of the voice.
To me, she has a deep voice for a woman, and as I said she also has an incredibly ripped physique for a woman.
I never said thats a definite indicator of steroid use. I simply said that I wasn't shocked to hear the news.

trev77

My point is that as someone that doesn't train elite fighters you shouldn't undermine other peoples opinions on this matter

Barry.Oglesby

trev77 wrote: »

My point is that as someone that doesn't train elite fighters you shouldn't undermine other peoples opinions on this matter

EDIT: No not going to be drawn on that actually. Best of luck with the rest of the "debate"

00benski

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think you're a bit confused here, or haven't read my posts well enough.

To summarise, I said that all athletes should be innocent until proven guilty, and that people on keyboards generally lack the frame of reference required to understand the effects of PEDs, and as such should probably err on the side of "I don't know" rather than saying they are rampant in sport.

dont want to start an argument but i do know plenty about ped's and have Friends who for many years have been cylcling on and off, who i might add are perfectly healthy and fit people.

Yes there is an extremly high amount of people who dont use these drugs, but to put your body through some of the training ELITE athlets do, many times a day would be impossible on the human body without the help of some sort of edge.

00benski

And my take on things would be most of these commission's dont have the money or the resources to test all these atlethes and i belive if they did then we would be seeing an awful lot more being cought and more people would realise.

MrStuffins

00benski wrote: »

dont want to start an argument but i do know plenty about ped's and have Friends who for many years have been cylcling on and off, who i might add are perfectly healthy and fit people.

Yes there is an extremly high amount of people who dont use these drugs, but to put your body through some of the training ELITE athlets do, many times a day would be impossible on the human body without the help of some sort of edge.

Wait, what?

Did you just imply that all elite athletes are on PEDs?

MrStuffins

trev77 wrote: »

My point is that as someone that doesn't train elite fighters you shouldn't undermine other peoples opinions on this matter

Dude, I don't coach football in the Premier League, but i know most footballers aren't on drugs. Your arguments don't really have too much logic to them in fairness.

There's a massive difference between Barry O saying "You can't prove PEDs are widespread" and you saying "You can't prove they're not". The onus of proof is NOT on the person to prove PEDs are not being used, it's up to the person making the claim that they are to prove that they are.

Like this comment here:

Higher wrote: »

Overeem is without doubt on them as well.

Unless the poster has something to back himself up with, he shouldn't be saying things like this.

00benski

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wait, what?

Did you just imply that all elite athletes are on PEDs?

Hardly, this is not the case. MrStuffins and forgive my Phrasing of my last post

MrStuffins

00benski wrote: »

Hardly, this is not the case. MrStuffins and forgive my Phrasing of my last post

Then what are you trying to say exactly?

00benski

MrStuffins wrote: »

Dude, I don't coach football in the Premier League, but i know most footballers aren't on drugs. Your arguments don't really have too much logic to them in fairness.

There's a massive difference between Barry O saying "You can't prove PEDs are widespread" and you saying "You can't prove they're not". The onus of proof is NOT on the person to prove PEDs are not being used, it's up to the person making the claim that they are to prove that they are.

Like this comment here:



Unless the poster has something to back himself up with, he shouldn't be saying things like this.

Ah come on MrStuffins, the guys body type over the years has been long and Lanky,(Ectomorph) for him to put on the size he has in such a short amount of time, all muscle mass is certainly not from eating horse meat and training his ass off to think so its naive

trev77

MrStuffins wrote: »

trev77 wrote: »

My point is that as someone that doesn't train elite fighters you shouldn't undermine other peoples opinions on this matter

Dude, I don't coach football in the Premier League, but i know most footballers aren't on drugs. Your arguments don't really have too much logic to them in fairness.

There's a massive difference between Barry O saying "You can't prove PEDs are widespread" and you saying "You can't prove they're not". The onus of proof is NOT on the person to prove PEDs are not being used, it's up to the person making the claim that they are to prove that they are.

Like this comment here:

Higher wrote: »

Overeem is without doubt on them as well.

Unless the poster has something to back himself up with, he shouldn't be saying things like this.

I think you missed my point mr stuffins, my point is that none of us know what the level of ped use is at the elite level of mma because nobody on this forum are involved with fighters of that level and because of that barrys opinion is only as valid as any body else's rather then and I did take offence to this "the average keyboard jockey"

00benski

What im trying to say is, as ive said in posts already. STERIOD use is rampant at the top end of Sports and this includes MMA, Rugby, american football, baseball, athletics ect. Im not insinuating that all atlethes are on them. But there is a hell of a lot and i dont know why you would think not.

Logical Fallacy

00benski wrote: »

Ah come on MrStuffins, the guys body type over the years has been long and Lanky,(Ectomorph) for him to put on the size he has in such a short amount of time, all muscle mass is certainly not from eating horse meat and training his ass off to think so its naive

Okay, not to sound like a total dick but i see a lot of people making this argument about Overeem.

Here are my thoughts on it.

Yes, Overeem has put on weight but to call him previously long and lanky is a bit misleading. Yes, he was not carrying as much muscle back then but he still had incredibly full muscle bellies and low muscle insertions. Go back to Overeem Vs Shogun and the majority of people with any real knowledge of building the human physique would agree that Overeem had incredible potential for size.

Secondly it's not really a short amount of time...it's been 4 years. His last LHW fight was June 2007. That is a long time to add mass, especially if you consider Overeem's well documented struggle with maintaining his body for Light heavy weight. He was basically unable to eat or weight train to his potential in order to stay in that weight category.

Thirdly, there are certain obvious side effects of the majority of PED's that would be available to someone at Overeem's level the most obvious of which is the old back acne issue. Saw one thing for Overeem, the guy doesn't show any signs of it.

Fourth, i've noticed a lot of people saying he is probably on HGH on the internet, yet once again the main physical side effects of said substance don't seem to be manifesting...predominantly further growth of the jaw and skull and distension of the waistline and stomach due to internal organ growth.

Now, i'm not saying he is or is not on drugs, i am simply pointing out that at the moment, beyond the fact that he is big...there is no real evidence for the claim that he is, as the majority of points raised can be easily and logical argued against.

Finally, from personal experience, the second you get even remotely big and strong the average Joe Soap thinks you are on steroids. Myself and a former training partner were repeatedly asked were we on steroids in pretty much every gym we trained in when we were both clean as a whistle...so i guess i am trying to say is that the simple idea that someone who eats a lot and trains hard and can get a lot bigger because of it seems to be lost on a lot of people.

MrStuffins

00benski wrote: »

Ah come on MrStuffins, the guys body type over the years has been long and Lanky,(Ectomorph) for him to put on the size he has in such a short amount of time, all muscle mass is certainly not from eating horse meat and training his ass off to think so its naive

Logical Fallacy said a lot of what I wanted to say. Short time? He was a HW as far back as 2006. In fact, he always found it hard to make 205, he fought Vitor in 2006 and missed weight by a full 5 lbs!

He's been a full time HW for almost 5 years now. I do not think it is impossible for someone to put on 30lbs of muscle in 5 years in fairness.

To just presume he is on roids shows naivity on your part i'm afraid. Especially when the only "proof" you have is "Well, look at him. He used to be skinny and now he's not".

trev77 wrote: »

I think you missed my point mr stuffins, my point is that none of us know what the level of ped use is at the elite level of mma because nobody on this forum are involved with fighters of that level and because of that barrys opinion is only as valid as any body else's rather then and I did take offence to this "the average keyboard jockey"

If i'm not mistaken, Barry was trying to make the point that people shouldn't be accusing people of PED abuse willy nilly without backing themselves up. Every fighter should be innocent until proven guilty.

People trying to insinuate PEDs are rampant by lazily copying and pasting stuff from an article about 33 fighters have been caught in a 10 year period is a bit silly!

00benski

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Okay, not to sound like a total dick but i see a lot of people making this argument about Overeem.

Here are my thoughts on it.



Thirdly, there are certain obvious side effects of the majority of PED's that would be available to someone at Overeem's level the most obvious of which is the old back acne issue. Saw one thing for Overeem, the guy doesn't show any signs of it.

There is a 101 differant steriods on the market right now that dont produce much side affects if any. HGH can be taken without your organs and head blowing up, if its abused like any other steriod yes this will happen. Back acne does not happen in all cases of testosterone usage and again if its abused more side affects will appear.

Fourth, i've noticed a lot of people saying he is probably on HGH on the internet, yet once again the main physical side effects of said substance don't seem to be manifesting...predominantly further growth of the jaw and skull and distension of the waistline and stomach due to internal organ growth.

Now, i'm not saying he is or is not on drugs, i am simply pointing out that at the moment, beyond the fact that he is big...there is no real evidence for the claim that he is, as the majority of points raised can be easily and logical argued against.

ok i take the point on board that i or probably anyone else on this thread has no proper evidence to condem these athlets to drug abuse, but i will still take my stance and say there is plenty that do and one of the guys put up 33 names and im sure if we all dug a bit deeper we would come up with many many more.

Finally, from personal experience, the second you get even remotely big and strong the average Joe Soap thinks you are on steroids. Myself and a former training partner were repeatedly asked were we on steroids in pretty much every gym we trained in when we were both clean as a whistle...so i guess i am trying to say is that the simple idea that someone who eats a lot and trains hard and can get a lot bigger because of it seems to be lost on a lot of people.

j

00benski

Im not saying either that i dont approve of these guys taking steriods, tbh i think they are a pretty safe bet when not abused and help add a certain quality to some peoples lives, tho i wouldnt take them myself i might add but whatever floats your boat.

Voodu Child

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Secondly it's not really a short amount of time...it's been 4 years. His last LHW fight was June 2007. That is a long time to add mass, especially if you consider Overeem's well documented struggle with maintaining his body for Light heavy weight. He was basically unable to eat or weight train to his potential in order to stay in that weight category.

Not true.

Overeems last fight at LHW was against Shogun. He moved to HW full time, his next three fights were Knapp, Kharonitov and Buentello.

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

He moves to HW full time, so now he can eat and weight train all he wants. Yet 3 fights and 9 months later he still weighs just 224. This is pretty close to his LWH fighting weight.

Its also not true that he put on his mass gradually over 4 years. Most of it was done in the 2 years between Buentello (224) and Fujita (260).

Logical Fallacy

There is a 101 differant steriods on the market right now that dont produce much side affects if any. HGH can be taken without your organs and head blowing up, if its abused like any other steriod yes this will happen. Back acne does not happen in all cases of testosterone usage and again if its abused more side affects will appear.

Yeah, but your argument is that he has put on substantial muscle mass in a short amount of time...so i imagine that would require "abuse" of the substance or something like Deca of Winny to get that kind of result.

Voodu Child wrote: »

Not true.

Overeems last fight at LHW was against Shogun. He moved to HW full time, his next three fights were Knapp, Kharonitov and Buentello.

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

He moves to HW full time, so now he can eat and weight train all he wants. Yet 3 fights and 9 months later he still weighs just 224. This is pretty close to his LWH fighting weight.

Its also not true that he put on his mass gradually over 4 years. Most of it was done in the 2 years between Buentello (224) and Fujita (260).

All the first bit tells me is he was probably fighting without the need to cut tbh. I also never implied that he left the ring post Shogun fight and started eating twelve times a day and training with Strongmen as he does now.

So i am unsure how it "disproves" the notion given that Overeem himself repeatedly stated this. The simple fact is that starting a new regime to add mass, including all the required lifting and conditioning involved to ensure that mass does not impact on cardio would not be the kind of thing you could do in a training camp....of which he had 3 over the 9 month period.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

How does this disprove that he was unable to eat or train? It actually indicated the opposite

Voodu Child

MrStuffins wrote: »

How does this disprove that he was unable to eat or train? It actually indicated the opposite

The idea spread by Overeem defenders is that he was struggling to make LHW. He was on a very strict diet and couldn't touch the weigh-room for fear of blowing up into the hulk.

So he moves full time to HW and no longer has this pressure to make LHW. Yet 9 months later he weighs just 224?

220 is pretty much what the average LHW weighs on fight night after rehydration and eating.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

The idea spread by Overeem defenders is that he was struggling to make LHW. He was on a very strict diet and couldn't touch the weigh-room for fear of blowing up into the hulk.

So he moves full time to HW and no longer has this pressure to make LHW. Yet 9 months later he weighs just 224?

220 is pretty much what the average LHW weighs on fight night after rehydration and eating.

So? Perhaps he wanted to fight at his natural weight? What's your point here?

When he's big, he's too big. When he's small, he's too small :rolleyes:

By the way, I find it fascinating that you would call people "Overeem defenders". As if Overeem being on steroids is the default position and everyone else who decides he is innocent until proven guilty (remember, he has passed every drug test he's taken, including the ones associated with his previous outing v Lesnar) is a "defender". Lol!

Voodu Child

MrStuffins wrote: »

So? Perhaps he wanted to fight at his natural weight? What's your point here?

When you talk about Overeems sudden weight gain, some people say 'he was basically starving himself at LHW, that accounts for some of his gain. As soon as he moved to HW and didn't have to starve, the weight piled on'.

Clearly it is not true. The weight didn't pile on when he moved to HW because he weighed just 224 against Buentello.

Your fascination regarding the use of the term defenders is idiotic. When the discussion topic is people suspected of illegal PEDs, there is going to be people on both sides of the discussion. Take a guess what people on one side are called? Its a descriptive term.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

When you talk about Overeems sudden weight gain, some people say 'he was basically starving himself at LHW, that accounts for some of his gain. As soon as he moved to HW and didn't have to starve, the weight piled on'.

Clearly it is not true. The weight didn't pile on when he moved to HW because he weighed just 224 against Buentello.

You said LHWs normally weight around 220 naturally.

Overeem then fought at HW and weighted 224 according to you.

This proves he's juicing. Your logic is sound! Please tell me more!

Your fascination regarding the use of the term defenders is idiotic. When the discussion topic is people suspected of illegal PEDs, there is going to be people on both sides of the discussion. Take a guess what people on one side are called? Its a descriptive term.

Only when you introduce that term. he doesn't need to be defended because there is nothing to defend against.

The only thing people who accuse him of juicing him have is "Well look at him, he's big now and he was small before".

According to you, he's too big now. He was too small against Buentello........... excellent.

Come back with something solid or just leave it go. It onus is on you to prove it if you're making accusations. Not on him or everybody else in the world (defenders are you call us/them) to prove you wrong.