How do Dublin bus justify a 30 cent increase on a fare

foggy_lad

KD345 wrote: »

Putting the 3 days last week aside, there are ongoing serious problems with driver handovers on certain routes. These issues need to be addressed. There is no excuse for passengers to be left sitting on buses waiting for a driver to arrive. It reflects badly on the route which ultimately becomes unreliable.

I was on a 145 in bray before the Christmas which stopped at the superquin? SC for a driver change over, AFAIK the bus was on time and not very early and the new driver was ready and waiting as was another driver waiting for a different bus. all three drivers proceeded to have a 15 minute chat about the Christmas and shopping mince pies drink busses other drivers etc etc. several times offensive language was heard and the bus was passed by 2 other 145s heading to Heuston. I would not worry about drivers having a chat for a couple of minutes while settling into the seat but this kind of thing is taking the p1ss, they were just short of breaking open a tray of cans and having a party!

I have seen slow hand-overs before and it seems to be a certain type usually middle aged men who take such liberties and are probably union shop stewards etc so see themselves as untouchable.

With this carry on they do not deserve the old fares nevermind getting increases.

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

Putting the 3 days last week aside, there are ongoing serious problems with driver handovers on certain routes. These issues need to be addressed. There is no excuse for passengers to be left sitting on buses waiting for a driver to arrive. It reflects badly on the route which ultimately becomes unreliable.

Last week is one issue which I've dealt with specifically.

However I don't really know what you can do if (for example) a 145 arrives at Donnybrook 10-15 minutes ahead of his scheduled time due to traffic being light (as in this week).

The ongoing problems I am assuming you're referring to are on the 13/27/40 which presumably will get new driver rosters with revised running times.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was on a 145 in bray before the Christmas which stopped at the superquin? SC for a driver change over, AFAIK the bus was on time and not very early and the new driver was ready and waiting as was another driver waiting for a different bus. all three drivers proceeded to have a 15 minute chat about the Christmas and shopping mince pies drink busses other drivers etc etc. several times offensive language was heard and the bus was passed by 2 other 145s heading to Heuston. I would not worry about drivers having a chat for a couple of minutes while settling into the seat but this kind of thing is taking the p1ss, they were just short of breaking open a tray of cans and having a party!

I have seen slow hand-overs before and it seems to be a certain type usually middle aged men who take such liberties and are probably union shop stewards etc so see themselves as untouchable.

With this carry on they do not deserve the old fares nevermind getting increases.

The AFAIK settles it me oul segotia....;),closely followed by the "probably".....

As a matter of interest what type of watch do you have ..?

And,will you be in the Bray region for long....?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

The AFAIK settles it me oul segotia....;),closely followed by the "probably".....

As a matter of interest what type of watch do you have ..?

And,will you be in the Bray region for long....?

Being that I waited more than 10 minutes for the bus which is supposed to have a frequency of one every 10 minutes it was in all probability delayed when I boarded it and took over an hour and ten minutes at 7pm to get to Heuston station from this point in Bray at stop 4154 on castle street, so I can safely say that the driver's actions delayed the bus and any passengers therein.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

now if they could let us poor sods know by some marker where these stages actually are? how hard would it be to put a few coloured numbers on the relevant bus stops to show they are stage points?

Or even a simpler step, have the DB website and iphone route planner tell you the number of stages for your planned routes.

Conor J

bk wrote: »

Or even a simpler step, have the DB website and iphone route planner tell you the number of stages for your planned routes.

each stage should be a different colour bus stop or something, green instead of yellow.

KD345

lxflyer wrote: »

However I don't really know what you can do if (for example) a 145 arrives at Donnybrook 10-15 minutes ahead of his scheduled time due to traffic being light (as in this week).

The ongoing problems I am assuming you're referring to are on the 13/27/40 which presumably will get new driver rosters with revised running times.

Surely the best thing to do is to redesign the roster to build in additional driver handover time, where a driver is required to be at their location 15/20 minutes ahead of the actual time. This can be factored into the roster in the same way certain drivers are given 30 minutes to travel from depot to terminus to start their duty etc. We all know how unpredictable Dublin traffic can be, so perhaps there needs to be greater handover time built in to work rosters to cover this problem.

While the 13/27/40 routes are certainly having issues, there are still problems with the 37/39/66 routes at College Green. You can observe buses parked up most days of the week.

I've been on buses waiting for the next driver to arrive where 5 or 6 passengers will just get off the bus frustrated. Those people leave the bus feeling annoyed and will probably think twice about using that particular route again. That route then becomes known as unreliable and looses passengers. Dublin Bus really can't afford to let that happen right now as every passenger is needed.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Or even a simpler step, have the DB website and iphone route planner tell you the number of stages for your planned routes.

and if you are one of the thousands of passengers who doesn't check the route before getting a bus? or who does not have an iphone or internet access?

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was on a 145 in bray before the Christmas which stopped at the superquin? SC for a driver change over, AFAIK the bus was on time and not very early and the new driver was ready and waiting as was another driver waiting for a different bus. all three drivers proceeded to have a 15 minute chat about the Christmas and shopping mince pies drink busses other drivers etc etc. several times offensive language was heard and the bus was passed by 2 other 145s heading to Heuston. I would not worry about drivers having a chat for a couple of minutes while settling into the seat but this kind of thing is taking the p1ss, they were just short of breaking open a tray of cans and having a party!

that is the absolute standard in my experience, change overs rarely happen in less than 10 mins and it's usually quicker to get off and get the next bus, especially at somewhere like Donnybrook.
It's something that is so so negative for passenger perceptions, can be mostly eradicated with quick handovers without the need for a chat, leaving a small minority of times where an early bus has to wait longer.
The 46a was always the worst culprit for this, dunno if it's changed recently with ND or anything though.

spareman

foggy_lad wrote: »

and if you are one of the thousands of passengers who doesn't check the route before getting a bus? or who does not have an iphone or internet access?

Get on the bus and state your destination, Us driver's are very helpful you know..:)

foggy_lad

spareman wrote: »

Get on the bus and state your destination, Us driver's are very helpful you know..:)

But many drivers are unaware of where all the stage points are themselves because there is no markings and some stages are on stops named after places which no longer exist etc. There is also the issue of drivers not updating stage points on ticket machines.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

But many drivers are unaware of where all the stage points are themselves because there is no markings and some stages are on stops named after places which no longer exist etc. There is also the issue of drivers not updating stage points on ticket machines.

Foggy,it's not also the issue it IS the issue,as for the most part Busdrivers have as little idea of the Stage Location as yourself.

It's worth bearing in mind that a significant number of Dublin Bus drivers have NEVER seen a marked Stage Point in their career with the company,as they will have entered after the mass obliteration of such identifiers.

Additionally,as a significant number of staff are non-Irish Nationals their knowldege of traditional "well-known" locations is virtually non-existant.

How the company can prevail with this lunacy,after identifying each bus-stop, is beyond my reckoning ....

Stage 27 Leeson St (Pembroke St)...which Stop is this exactly....a quick check of the RTPI database for Leeson St gives us....Stop 845 St Stephens Green East/Leeson St Junction.....Stop 846 Lower Leeson St,Junction Fitzwilliam Place..

Now there are TWO outbound stops along Leeson St Lower,serving a multiplicity of busy routes,neither of these Stops is adjacent to or marked Pembroke St,where there is,apparently,a Fare Stage point located...

How,pray tell,is a Polish,Latvian,Egyptian,Romanain or Chinese Driver,never mind a native Gael,expected to locate and and deliver an accurate fare from a Fare Stage point which does not physically exist.

This particular location is but a single example of what is IMO the most basic element of how a fare-Stage system works....IF we cannot address the simple issue of identifying the Fare-Stage on street then we cannot purport to operate such a system.....

Clarity counts for an awful lot in Public Transport terms...simple,clear,direct,unambiguous terms are whats required...attend to that and a lot of trouble n strife can be avoided !

Aard

I remember fadó fadó on the 75, the old reliable, stating my destination (a child's fare at the time) of a dark and stormy Thursday evening... Ticket inspector gets on. Bus had about five people on it. Don't believe I've encountered one since, mind. Tells me my ticket isn't valid, and I let him know that I had paid what the driver had told me. He made me pay another fare for the few stops I had over-travelled, and turfed me out at the next stop. 10 minute walk home. I won't piss and moan and give my opinion on DB (which hasn't changed much since that night if I'm honest), but you can imagine my sentiments I'm sure.

At any rate, if that story isn't a reason for a flat fare for children, I don't know what is. Atm it's either €0.75, €0.90, or €1.15 depending on time of day and distance. All pretty close together, but make a mistake then you're fcuked. A child shouldn't have to figure out a baroque stage system. It should be a flat €1 for cash and €0.90 for Leap, and if they want their schoolchild fare they can get a Travel90 for €6.50.

Michael Collins

Aard wrote: »

I remember fadó fadó on the 75, the old reliable, stating my destination (a child's fare at the time) of a dark and stormy Thursday evening... Ticket inspector gets on. Bus had about five people on it. Don't believe I've encountered one since, mind. Tells me my ticket isn't valid, and I let him know that I had paid what the driver had told me. He made me pay another fare for the few stops I had over-travelled, and turfed me out at the next stop. 10 minute walk home. I won't piss and moan and give my opinion on DB (which hasn't changed much since that night if I'm honest), but you can imagine my sentiments I'm sure.

At any rate, if that story isn't a reason for a flat fare for children, I don't know what is. Atm it's either €0.75, €0.90, or €1.15 depending on time of day and distance. All pretty close together, but make a mistake then you're fcuked. A child shouldn't have to figure out a baroque stage system. It should be a flat €1 for cash and €0.90 for Leap, and if they want their schoolchild fare they can get a Travel90 for €6.50.

I nearly got stopped once like that. An inspector got on, and as (bad) luck would have it my montly bus and luas card had run out that day, so I had paid via cash. I found my ticket when I saw the inspector, checked it, and sure enough the stage when I boarded the bus was set wrong - as often is the case - and, by rights, my ticket wasn't valid - it does have a disclaimer saying that it's your responsibilty to ensure that the ticket is correct. I was trying to think of the best way of explaining it, but luckily enough the inspector was fairly slow and I alighted before he had a chance to check me.

The next time I got an incorrect ticket I said it to the driver and he said "Ah, don't worry about that"! My point is that it happens so often that the stage is incorrectly set, it's probably a bit much to ask the passenger to correct the driver every time...

Just out of curiousity, can the ticket machine be set to auto-update its stage, now that every bus has real-time location info available?

Also, when paying cash officially you're supposed to say your destination right? But it's evolved to everyone just saying what fare they want. So with the Leap Card will you be able to just say €1.95 or whatever?

foggy_lad

Michael Collins wrote: »

I nearly got stopped once like that. An inspector got on, and as (bad) luck would have it my montly bus and luas card had run out that day, so I had paid via cash. I found my ticket when I saw the inspector, checked it, and sure enough the stage when I boarded the bus was set wrong - as often is the case - and, by rights, my ticket wasn't valid - it does have a disclaimer saying that it's your responsibilty to ensure that the ticket is correct. I was trying to think of the best way of explaining it, but luckily enough the inspector was fairly slow and I alighted before he had a chance to check me.

The next time I got an incorrect ticket I said it to the driver and he said "Ah, don't worry about that"! My point is that it happens so often that the stage is incorrectly set, it's probably a bit much to ask the passenger to correct the driver every time...

Just out of curiousity, can the ticket machine be set to auto-update it's stage, now that every bus has real-time location info available?

Also, when paying cash officially you're supposed to say your destination right? But it's evolved to everyone just saying what fare they want. So with the Leap Card will you be able to just say €1.95 or whatever?

if the stage is set wrong and you state your destination you will most likely be overcharged and the disclaimer is bullsh1t because the general public has no way of knowing what stage they are at apart from what a driver(who may be wrong) tells them. maybe this whole mess is the reason Dublin Bus have just about stopped inspectors checking tickets?

psychward

foggy_lad wrote: »

if the stage is set wrong and you state your destination you will most likely be overcharged and the disclaimer is bullsh1t because the general public has no way of knowing what stage they are at apart from what a driver(who may be wrong) tells them. maybe this whole mess is the reason Dublin Bus have just about stopped inspectors checking tickets?

Theres also frequently a very strange almost obnoxious ''pause'' while I await the production of my change ticket. As though the driver is trying to get away with not being asked for it. I see drivers sometimes printing out paper from their machines as though they are doing some kind of tally. I don't think it would be impossible for a driver to collect change tickets all day for his own pocket,

foggy_lad

psychward wrote: »

Theres also frequently a very strange almost obnoxious ''pause'' while I await the production of my change ticket. As though the driver is trying to get away with not being asked for it. I see drivers sometimes printing out paper from their machines as though they are doing some kind of tally. I don't think it would be impossible for a driver to collect change tickets all day for his own pocket,

AFAIK the change ticket must be printed before the next ticket or it wont print so it is impossible for drivers to steal the change tickets unless they grabbed them after each transaction but this would be noticed.

crushproof

foggy_lad wrote: »

AFAIK the change ticket must be printed before the next ticket or it wont print so it is impossible for drivers to steal the change tickets unless they grabbed them after each transaction but this would be noticed.

A lot of times, for instance, I throw in 2.50 for a 2.30 fare, the driver will just print out a regular 2.30 fare, expecting me not to worry about my 20c change. Then comes the shrug and "ugh" and they eventually print it out. Thank god I got my Leap Card now :rolleyes:

psychward

foggy_lad wrote: »

AFAIK the change ticket must be printed before the next ticket or it wont print so it is impossible for drivers to steal the change tickets unless they grabbed them after each transaction but this would be noticed.

Still possibly a loophole to get a few quid tax free every day there though. From years of travel on buses I can see that they have the freedom to choose how much each ticket is valued at. So whats' to stop them keeping a tally and printing off some higher value change tickets towards the end even after a regular fare is paid which does not require change (but not taking too much to be noticed) ? Or even creating a ticket by feeding in the minimum fare then invalidating it then printing off some change ? I doubt many would notice if they do it when the bus is empty or everyone is sitting upstairs or at the back. I sometimes see them printing off reels of something but I don't know what after the bus has pulled away or is stuck in traffic and most drivers would tell you to feck off in no uncertain terms if you questioned or were interested in how they perform their duties. It could easily be excused as a stuck piece of paper they are dislodging. Noone thinks about it too much and noone is in a position to question it.

AlekSmart

psychward wrote: »

Still possibly a loophole to get a few quid tax free every day there though. From years of travel on buses I can see that they have the freedom to choose how much each ticket is valued at. So whats' to stop them keeping a tally and printing off some higher value change tickets towards the end even after a regular fare is paid which does not require change (but not taking too much to be noticed) ? Or even creating a ticket by feeding in the minimum fare then invalidating it then printing off some change ? I doubt many would notice if they do it when the bus is empty or everyone is sitting upstairs or at the back. I sometimes see them printing off reels of something but I don't know what after the bus has pulled away or is stuck in traffic and most drivers would tell you to feck off in no uncertain terms if you questioned or were interested in how they perform their duties. It could easily be excused as a stuck piece of paper they are dislodging. Noone thinks about it too much and noone is in a position to question it.

Not wanting to be too negative about this but psychward is SO incorrect here.

I'M somewhat incredulous as to the "Reels of something" this poster sees being printed off as on the Wayfarer TGX the only non travel tickets issued are clearly marked "Not Vaild for Travel" and are short sign on stubs.

There may be some confusion between the old Wayfarer 2 system,now long gone,which did print off an audit ticket when ending a duty.

The change-ticket issue is far simpler and revolves around speed.

Most of my cash-paying passengers simply ask for a denonimation and drop a number of coins in the vault...rarely pausing for anything other than their travel ticket.

That amount of coins may be more or less than the stated fare,but generally I don't get too forensic about it as the vast majority of my passengers are 101% honest and just want to get on with their journey.

I could if I desired start counting each cash transaction but I can guarantee this will seriously increase the journey time,thus delaying EVERYBODY including those who have moved to cashless means for the purposes of speeding the process up.

If I see a person clearly inserting an overpayment,ie:€2 for a €1.40 fare I will pre-enter the amount in a very rapid key-stroke and the Change-Ticket will issue automatically,something which many people simply do not pause for,leaving the (invalid) change ticket in place for the next person.

In a significant number of cases pasengers simply deposit €2 and dont even bother with the change,even telling me not to bother.....(that tells me the acceptable level of flat fare pdq.)

The remainder of my passengers,the contentious ones,I usually have already spotted and will generally make a little tableau out of the entire process.

Occasionally I am approached by such a person loudly demanding their change ticket only to deflate rapidly when I point out it's already attached to the ticket in their fist.....even more occasionally,Homer nods and I do leave a pasenger without their CT,something I will rectify immediately.

LXFlyer

psychward wrote: »

Theres also frequently a very strange almost obnoxious ''pause'' while I await the production of my change ticket. As though the driver is trying to get away with not being asked for it. I see drivers sometimes printing out paper from their machines as though they are doing some kind of tally. I don't think it would be impossible for a driver to collect change tickets all day for his own pocket,

In order to cash a change ticket you need the original ticket also - something any driver won't have. The two need to be in sequence.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

In order to cash a change ticket you need the original ticket also - something any driver won't have. The two need to be in sequence.

then how come charities advertise for change ticket all the time. How can they cash them in without the originals?

LXFlyer

Well given the ticket is issued at the same time they would get both.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/

Exact Fare System

The Autofare is our exact fare system in operation on Dublin Bus services.

How does it work?

Having established the appropriate fare for the journey, you insert the exact fare in coins only into the top of the fare box. Notes are not accepted.

A ticket will then be issued by the ticket machine once the driver is satisfied that the correct fare has been deposited.

If you have to deposit more than the exact fare, the driver will issue a passenger change ticket for the overpayment. This passenger change ticket, together with your travel ticket, must be presented at Dublin Bus, 59 Upper O`Connell Street, in order to claim a refund of the overpayment.

Please note no change is given by the driver or machine and the driver is not allowed under any circumstances to handle cash.

zil

lxflyer wrote: »

In order to cash a change ticket you need the original ticket also - something any driver won't have. The two need to be in sequence.

Never realised this was supposed to be the case. I've always torn off the change receipt and binned the ticket and have never had a problem going in to exchange the receipt for cash.

foggy_lad

It is in the t&c but you are never asked for both tickets. Even when most change tickets are issued and printed the bus ticket has already been torn away by the customer.