How do Dublin bus justify a 30 cent increase on a fare

Cookie_Monster

Michael Collins wrote: »

Any idea why this is?

the usual state / semi state attitude and legacies:
Heavily unionised environment who invariably end up being difficult to work with, oppose cuts and lead to inflated salaries and excess staff
management who historically have no interest in running a commercial operation, merely a social one.
lots and lots of out of service running
huge dwell times
fancy new fleet to pay for while ditching perfectly good buses before their time (ie inflated depreciation costs to build in, buses paid for by gov/EU)
multiple small depots and duplication of positions caused by this
Traffic: more fuel burnt, more wages to be paid for less productivity, but little DB can do directly about this

I'm sure there's plenty more reasons

Fuinseog

psinno wrote: »

I'm always confused as to why regular bus users do not have an annual bus ticket. I got mine mainly to avoid the hassle with cash but I understand they save employee and employer cash.

is there a major savings to be made on an annual or monthly ticket?

ScouseMouse

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The reason for the fare increases is that

(1) customers are deserting Dublin Bus in droves - numbers are back at 2001, pre-boom levels

Not quite deserting, more like they are not travelling. No work, no travel.

noelfirl wrote: »

Buy Travel 90s!

Agreed buy loads (while they are still available)

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the usual state / semi state attitude and legacies:
Heavily unionised environment who invariably end up being difficult to work with, oppose cuts and lead to inflated salaries and excess staff
management who historically have no interest in running a commercial operation, merely a social one.
lots and lots of out of service running
huge dwell times
fancy new fleet to pay for while ditching perfectly good buses before their time (ie inflated depreciation costs to build in, buses paid for by gov/EU)
multiple small depots and duplication of positions caused by this
Traffic: more fuel burnt, more wages to be paid for less productivity,

Completely agree

colly10

AlekSmart wrote: »

For example Collie10 could feasibly make those two daily journeys for c. €1.62 each if a 30 Day Rambler was used,and that's asuming ONLY two journeys per day....Now thats bargain basement .

Don't know if they just put it up by a good bit but the 30 day rambler is 110 so that would be around 1.83 a journey

barrmur

I had a quick skim through the post but not sure if this has been mentioned already. Is it not a bit of a joke that with the Leap card you have to tell the driver how many stages you want to travel and then he deducts it from your card? So now people with leap cards now have to queue behind those with cash instead of using the quicker swipe system. These gob****es spent €50m on a system that does not allow you to tag on and tag off like the LUAS system. I love this backward little country.

markpb

psinno wrote: »

I'm always confused as to why regular bus users do not have an annual bus ticket. I got mine mainly to avoid the hassle with cash but I understand they save employee and employer cash.

Some companies don't want the hassle of organising it. Others will let their employees participate in the scheme but make them pay for annual tickets in one go which many people can't afford.

For others, even the annual ticket isn't worthwhile (or is barely worth it). A person paying tax at 20% pays €690 for an annual bus ticket. Assuming they always/only take the bus to work, it costs them €2.93 per day or €1.47 per trip. Yes that's a saving per trip but it also means you have to stump up €690 in one month (unless your employer will facilitate you).

superscouse wrote: »

Not quite deserting, more like they are not travelling. No work, no travel.

Passenger numbers fell by over 20% between 2003 and 2010 (149.9m to 119m)
Unemployment rose by 9% during the same timeframe.

kdouglas

Just came across this thread this morning after doing a bit of research on cost of public transport vs private car;

At the moment, I roughly calculate I am spending €8-9 per work day on fuel for my private car.

I looked up what the fare would be if I were to travel by rail/bus (From Kilcock to Santry [Changing from Rail to Bus number 13 at Drumcondra rail station]) and using cash fares, it would be a little over €13 return in total.

If I were to use monthly tickets for bus/rail (Apparently Leap only works as far as Maynooth for Rail), the cheapest I can bring this down to is €10.50 per day.

So it would actually cost me somewhere between 1.50 and 5euro per day to take bus/rail as opposed to a private car. Not to mention the additional travel time and lack of convenience/comfort in comparison.

Previously, I simple didn't bother with public transport because of the preferred convenience and comfort of getting into my own car, but I had recently strongly considered changing my views in an effort to make some cost savings. Unfortunately this is simply not possible and for me this is the number one reason I will not be giving Dublin Bus (or Irish Rail) my money any time soon.


(* Yes, I know I've ignored Tax/Insurance and Service costs, I service my car myself, so Tax/Insurance works out about another 3euro, I'm ignoring this cost since I would require a car for the weekend etc... anyway.)

ScouseMouse

markpb wrote: »

Passenger numbers fell by over 20% between 2003 and 2010 (149.9m to 119m)
Unemployment rose by 9% during the same timeframe.

Emigration, polish leaving etc etc.

What are the figures of people in the city at the moment versus then?

markpb

superscouse wrote: »

Emigration, polish leaving etc etc. What are the figures of people in the city at the moment versus then?

The GDA had 1.5m in 2002 and 1.8m in 2011.

Assuming my numbers are correct (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6) during a population increase of 20%, an unemployment rate increase of 9%, Dublin Bus managed to lose 20% of their passengers.

Hilariously enough, Dublin Bus' annual reports disagree about their own passenger numbers with the 2005 report giving a different passenger count for 2004 than the 2004 report did. It happens several times. The 2003 report doesn't even mention passenger numbers, apparently it's not overly important.

ScouseMouse

So where are the people then?

The roads are quiet, I dont see loads of cyclists. The taxis are quiet.

If they are not on the buses, and have not emigrated, where are they?

the groutch

psinno wrote: »

I'm always confused as to why regular bus users do not have an annual bus ticket. I got mine mainly to avoid the hassle with cash but I understand they save employee and employer cash.

it depends on what you define as regular
if you mean the 9-5 worker travelling into town and back there is some value in it.
but at the taxsaver cost of €650 you have to be using it 180 days a year before you make an savings so it's not for everyone.
then there will be alot of people who might carpool in one direction but bus the other, so the t90 would be idea for them

penexpers

superscouse wrote: »

So where are the people then?

The roads are quiet, I dont see loads of cyclists. The taxis are quiet.

If they are not on the buses, and have not emigrated, where are they?

The schools are not back yet so the roads would be quiet enough anyway.

kthnxbai

barrmur wrote: »

I had a quick skim through the post but not sure if this has been mentioned already. Is it not a bit of a joke that with the Leap card you have to tell the driver how many stages you want to travel and then he deducts it from your card? So now people with leap cards now have to queue behind those with cash instead of using the quicker swipe system. These gob****es spent €50m on a system that does not allow you to tag on and tag off like the LUAS system. I love this backward little country.

This has been mentioned in other threads already... I agree with you that the LEAP system for buses is a bit ... well... ****e...

But, considering the buses only have one set of doors, the tag-on tag-off system wouldn't work so well. So yeah, people might board faster, but they'd take longer to get off the bus altogether.

I'm not the biggest fan of the LEAP system at the moment. The fact that it's usable across different types of public transport in Dublin is really good, but I don't like how there's no flat fare or student ticket.

The regular old smartcards seem like much better value for most people. Whether it be a monthly or a pack of travel90s or whatever. Granted, I would expect the price of these to rise soon enough, in line with the cash fare increase.

I do think that the increase is a bit steep. But, considering the prices offered by LEAP, it does seem like the prices were increased that much to encourage people to switch over.

There are enough different ticket options, between the smartcards and the LEAP that no one needs to pay 2.65 a journey. It's ridiculous. The tickets are all valid for non-consecutive days, and a 5 day rambler is about 20 quid(maybe a bit more, not entirely sure), so it's not a huge investment.

Losty Dublin

kdouglas wrote: »

Just came across this thread this morning after doing a bit of research on cost of public transport vs private car;

At the moment, I roughly calculate I am spending €8-9 per work day on fuel for my private car.

I looked up what the fare would be if I were to travel by rail/bus (From Kilcock to Santry [Changing from Rail to Bus number 13 at Drumcondra rail station]) and using cash fares, it would be a little over €13 return in total.

If I were to use monthly tickets for bus/rail (Apparently Leap only works as far as Maynooth for Rail), the cheapest I can bring this down to is €10.50 per day.

So it would actually cost me somewhere between 1.50 and 5euro per day to take bus/rail as opposed to a private car. Not to mention the additional travel time and lack of convenience/comfort in comparison.

Previously, I simple didn't bother with public transport because of the preferred convenience and comfort of getting into my own car, but I had recently strongly considered changing my views in an effort to make some cost savings. Unfortunately this is simply not possible and for me this is the number one reason I will not be giving Dublin Bus (or Irish Rail) my money any time soon.


(* Yes, I know I've ignored Tax/Insurance and Service costs, I service my car myself, so Tax/Insurance works out about another 3euro, I'm ignoring this cost since I would require a car for the weekend etc... anyway.)

The annual Kilcock-Connolly rail only pass is €1270 a year or €127 PM. If you were happy to park in Maynooth, the annual bus/rail short hop is €1230 or €123 PM. If you were to use both passes 5 times a week for 50 weeks a years (I'm sure there would be weeknight and weekend trips as well), you are looking at a spend of about €5 a week. And this is before the Taxsaver aspect kicks in for you and your employer, which would be over €300 PA minimum for you; more if you are on the higher tax band. Still, it won't spare you from the fixed costs of the car (Tax, insurance and basic services) but the fuel and wear and tear would reduce on it from it's lack of use.

BlazeTheCat

psinno wrote: »

I'm always confused as to why regular bus users do not have an annual bus ticket. I got mine mainly to avoid the hassle with cash but I understand they save employee and employer cash.

Simply - not every employer bothers with providing scheme for their employees...

I had a quick skim through the post but not sure if this has been mentioned already. Is it not a bit of a joke that with the Leap card you have to tell the driver how many stages you want to travel and then he deducts it from your card? So now people with leap cards now have to queue behind those with cash instead of using the quicker swipe system. These gob****es spent €50m on a system that does not allow you to tag on and tag off like the LUAS system. I love this backward little country.

Great point barmur - it`s supossed to be improvement in travel not putting you back in line with those who pay in cash

bk

kdouglas wrote: »

(* Yes, I know I've ignored Tax/Insurance and Service costs, I service my car myself, so Tax/Insurance works out about another 3euro, I'm ignoring this cost since I would require a car for the weekend etc... anyway.)

Do you require the car every weekend?

If not, you could think of selling the car and renting a rental car at the weekend when you need it. Might work out cheaper.

Dodge

BlazeTheCat wrote: »

Great point barmur - it`s supossed to be improvement in travel not putting you back in line with those who pay in cash

In fairness, the leap card people don't try and make that claim in relation to buses

What is a leap card

Conor J

thanks for taking the time to reply.

noelfirl wrote: »

Dwell times. All those 145s tend to bunch up very easily because the one in front picks up passengers repeatedly and the others catch up from not doing so. The alternate is pure timetabled services where drivers wait at stops if running too quickly, or more regulation in some other way to keep headways even.

My stop is perhaps 15mins into the 145 journey, and by that stage 2 buses arrive together, sometimes 3. That's too quickly for the above scenario to happen. But i agree, it probably is the cause a lot of the time.

But, Are Dublin bus trying to run a pure time tabled service or a frequent service? The timetables list both, however they fail at both. If they didn't drive around like headless chickens, then they wouldn't bunch up so easily.

That's generally still where most people will be going. In peak times more buses run with the flow.

it would be better if they created hub regions(business campuses, colleges etc), so buses will run there from a variety of area's instead of all going to the city (further clogging it up).

At some point though, for this to seriously happen (and leaving aside insufficient running times) serious effort will have to be put into offboard ticketing and real bus priority measures.

totally agree

lxflyer has written extensively on this elsewhere. The jist being that they're running weekday timetables and rosters where the traffic and passenger levels are too low such that many buses are operating too quickly on their routes and having to stop to take account at driver changeover, etc. Again the solution would involve either specific timetables for days like these and/or stop specific running with smaller waits at most stops.

see my headless chickens comment above. Run efficiently, and timely. It's not a race.

Stuff like that was used frequently years ago. It tended to burn very nicely.

i forgot about that, but surely there are solutions to burning and breaking.

kthnxbai

Dodge wrote: »

In fairness, the leap card people don't try and make that claim in relation to buses

What is a leap card

You mustn't have read this report: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Cie-operators-fares-increases-Dec-2011.pdf

It's the one by the NTA outlining the approved fare increases. On page it says:

The Authority believes that providing a discount for Leap customers using their Travel Credit will incentivise the switch to the new Leap card. This will yield benefits for all customers through faster boarding times and the consequential efficiency improvements for the bus operator.

So it has been officially said that they reckon it'll reduce boarding times. Which I really don't think will be the case. It's fine as being a replacement for cash, but I don't think anyone should claim it will reduce boarding times.

Dodge

Fair point, but I don't think the majority of leap card users will have read it either. Its been sold, as far as I can see, as an electronic purse type of thing, without too much references to faster loading times on buses

BlazeTheCat

I always thought that leap means skip/jump and as english isn`t my first language I decided to seek for online dictionary help and here is what i found

leap

verb /lēp/ 
leaped, past participle; leaped, past tense; leaping, present participle; leaps, 3rd person singular present; leapt, past participle; leapt, past tense

Jump or spring a long way, to a great height, or with great force
- I leaped across the threshold
- Fabia's heart leapt excitedly

Move quickly and suddenly
- Polly leapt to her feet

Jump across or over
- a coyote leaped the fence

Make a sudden rush to do something; act eagerly and suddenly
- it was time for me to leap into action

Accept (an opportunity) eagerly
- they leapt at the opportunity to combine fun with fund-raising

(of a price or figure) Increase dramatically
- sales leaped 40 percent during the Christmas season

(esp. of writing) Be conspicuous; stand out
- amid the notes, a couple of items leap out

noun /lēp/ 
leaps, plural

A forceful jump or quick movement
- she came downstairs in a series of flying leaps

A dramatic increase in price, amount, etc
- a leap of 75 percent in two years

A sudden, abrupt change or transition
- a leap of faith

A thing to be leaped over or from
- Lover's Leap

So DB named their ticket wrong altogether (what a surprise!!)

Dodge

BlazeTheCat wrote: »

So DB named their ticket wrong altogether (what a surprise!!)

Its not their ticket.

BlazeTheCat

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Projects/Integrated-Ticketing/

Dravokivich

kthnxbai wrote: »

You mustn't have read this report: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Cie-operators-fares-increases-Dec-2011.pdf

It's the one by the NTA outlining the approved fare increases. On page it says:

So it has been officially said that they reckon it'll reduce boarding times. Which I really don't think will be the case. It's fine as being a replacement for cash, but I don't think anyone should claim it will reduce boarding times.

People have a tendancy to fumble for change while at the driver. If you've got a leap card you just place it down. No fumbling. I suspect this is the time they are suggesting would be saved.

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

People have a tendancy to fumble for change while at the driver. If you've got a leap card you just place it down. No fumbling. I suspect this is the time they are suggesting would be saved.

However placing the card on the reader causes the driver screen to change which seems, followed by an extra delay as the driver and customer don't knw when they can take the card away.

In my experience of using Leap for the past month, it takes almost twice as long as cash.

Hopefully we will probably get some feedback from the likes of AlexSmart in a few weeks as more people take up Leap, just what sort of effect it has on dwell times.

BlazeTheCat

if they invest so much money in integrated tickets why not provide readers when you board bus that you scan your ticket when you board bus and get off it - pretty much like luas smart card. The only problem here i see not all bus drivers update their ticket/stage machine at relevant stops so it could cause passengers to loose money ...

markpb

bk wrote: »

However placing the card on the reader causes the driver screen to change which seems, followed by an extra delay as the driver and customer don't knw when they can take the card away.

There were always going to be training/familiarisation issues when the card was launched - they'll settle down overtime.

BlazeTheCat wrote: »

if they invest so much money in integrated tickets why not provide readers when you board bus that you scan your ticket when you board bus and get off it - pretty much like luas smart card. The only problem here i see not all bus drivers update their ticket/stage machine at relevant stops so it could cause passengers to loose money ...

This has been discussed in "Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread.

Dravokivich

I've never seen a driver with a problem on it yet, although I've only used it by a driver a couple of times for the 1-3 stage fare.

My dad is a driver too and he's not had any issues with'em himself.

It only seems to take a moment for the driver to double check the screen has acknowledged the card so I doubt that'd be much of a problem. Any delays using it would be on the hesitation of the driver themselves.

BlazeTheCat

markpb wrote: »

There were always going to be training/familiarisation issues when the card was launched - they'll settle down overtime.



This has been discussed in "Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread.

Thank you

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

I've never seen a driver with a problem on it yet, although I've only used it by a driver a couple of times for the 1-3 stage fare.

Twice I've been charged for two tickets instead of one (charged on card and issues with a paper ticket).

Once I've had a driver say I've no idea how to use this, get on board.

Anyway I wasn't talking about these instances, I mean in general use when nothing goes wrong, it seems to take longer then by cash.