Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order

jonniebgood1

Nooodles wrote: »

Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

Welcome Nooodles. Could you give us more information about your grandfather. It is easy to take a 'by the book' approach to this subject so a first hand view would be very helpful to the discussion.

CDfm

Nooodles wrote: »

Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

I have been trying to put together a more accurate account of the situation to that which is portrayed in the campaign and on the radio show.

It is a historical issue and needs to be looked at relative to the values & standards etc at that time and the motivations of those involved.

Nooodles

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Nooodles wrote: »

Paddy Reid was my grandfather. He was a hero full stop.
These men did not desert out of cowardice, they left the relative safety of Ireland to fight on the front lines. My grandfather fought bravely, he suffered greatly for his time spent in the Army.

For those who simply state he and the 1000's of others were simply 'deserters' and nothing else you are very much mistaken.

Welcome Nooodles. Could you give us more information about your grandfather. It is easy to take a 'by the book' approach to this subject so a first hand view would be very helpful to the discussion.

Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

Oasis_Dublin

Nooodles wrote: »

Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

So he joined the British Army at 16? How long had he been in the Irish Army before that?

Nooodles

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Nooodles wrote: »

Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

So he joined the British Army at 16? How long had he been in the Irish Army before that?

My grandfather joined the Irish Army IDF in 1939, he would have been underage, he was roughly 15/16. He left whilst still 16 and joined the British army. Unfortunately I am unable to give an approx time for his time in the irish army

jonniebgood1

Nooodles wrote: »

Thank you for this opportunity. I'll give a brief insight if that's ok.

My grandfather was 16 years of age when he left to join the British army with his brother. He fought in Burma and was held captive by the Japanese. As it is well known the Japanese were particularly cruel. My grandfather did not give up.

When he did return to Ireland, he was blacklisted completely. He was a brave man. And for those who feel he broke his oath to the nation, I'm sorry you feel that way. He did what he felt was right at the age of 16 and if anyone can put themselves in his shoes at 16 and say they would have done differently well then so be it.

The human aspect of this is interesting. It also demonstrates the problem with this issue. I think there was also a different attitude to wars in that era, a type of maturing into manhood for a 16 year old. Both sides of the argument can be understood, there is recognition by most people that a soldier fighting in Burma in WWII has performed a positive role. I would say it was positive for Ireland also and should be recognised in some way.

Dyr

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The human aspect of this is interesting. It also demonstrates the problem with this issue. I think there was also a different attitude to wars in that era, a type of maturing into manhood for a 16 year old. Both sides of the argument can be understood, there is recognition by most people that a soldier fighting in Burma in WWII has performed a positive role. I would say it was positive for Ireland also and should be recognised in some way.

What do you think the british army were doing in burma in '39? Protecting democracy? . A lot of Burmese initially sided with Japan just to expel the British.

Fighting for the british in burma was not much different to fighting for the nazi's in france.

Belfast

Nooodles wrote: »

No one said that they deserted out of cowardice.


In my post I gave my opinion that they did not leave out of cowardice, the bravery of these men is well documented.

Yes their bravery is well documented.

Does you grand father get a British Army Pension?

Hope he does after his war time service.

Nooodles

Bambi wrote: »

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The human aspect of this is interesting. It also demonstrates the problem with this issue. I think there was also a different attitude to wars in that era, a type of maturing into manhood for a 16 year old. Both sides of the argument can be understood, there is recognition by most people that a soldier fighting in Burma in WWII has performed a positive role. I would say it was positive for Ireland also and should be recognised in some way.

What do you think the british army were doing in burma in '39? Protecting democracy? . A lot of Burmese initially sided with Japan just to expel the British.

Fighting for the british in burma was not much different to fighting for the nazi's in france.

Initially sided with the Japanese?? You mean they changed sides at some point.

Your last comment is truly an eye opener, I would respond further but I'm a lady and I respect the rules of this forum.

Nooodles

Belfast wrote: »

Nooodles wrote: »

No one said that they deserted out of cowardice.


In my post I gave my opinion that they did not leave out of cowardice, the bravery of these men is well documented.

Yes their bravery is well documented.

Does you grand father get a British Army Pension?

Hope he does after his war time service.

My grandfather died in 1988 and no he didn't receive a pension!!

Belfast

Bambi wrote: »

What do you think the british army were doing in burma in '39? Protecting democracy? . A lot of Burmese initially sided with Japan just to expel the British.

Fighting for the british in burma was not much different to fighting for the nazi's in france.

Indeed no one in that war hand clean hands.

Bengal famine of 1943
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

Belfast

Nooodles wrote: »

My grandfather died in 1988 and no he didn't receive a pension!!

That is odd. Having fought for Britain the least they should get is a pension.

Eastern European who fought in Waffen SS in world war II got Germany army pensions after the Berlin wall came down.

SS veterans are receiving German pensions in U.S.
"German finance ministry that 1,500 former Latvian Waffen SS men were receiving pensions"
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/ss-receive-pensions.html

Nooodles

Belfast wrote: »

Nooodles wrote: »

My grandfather died in 1988 and no he didn't receive a pension!!

That is odd. Having fought for Britain the least they should get is a pension.

Eastern European who fought in Waffen SS in world war II got Germany army pensions after the Berlin wall came down.

SS veterans are receiving German pensions in U.S.
"German finance ministry that 1,500 former Latvian Waffen SS men were receiving pensions"
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/ss-receive-pensions.html

Well my grandfather didn't, after being interred in a prison of war camp by the Japanese, freed, sent back to England for a year to recover from the treatment he received. Returned home to his family, blacklisted by the government. He worked each and every day of his life to provide for his family, and believe me they suffered greatly.

Nooodles

I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

Nooodles

I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

jonniebgood1

Nooodles wrote: »

I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

I have sent you a PM regarding this. Your input is appreciated and you should not be bullied from posting.

Moderator

dubhthach

Noodles, it is possible to "Report Private Message" there would be a exclamation mark in a triangle sign (like a road sign) on the right hand side.

CDfm

Nooodles wrote: »

I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

I started the thread because I found that the content of the BBC radio show & campaign portrayed the Irish as being anti-British during WWII which was far from being the case.

Its a pity what has happened and I enjoyed your posts.

kabakuyu

Nooodles wrote: »

I appreciate being able to give some details on this thread. I understand people have different opinions, unfortunately what I have said has irked someone into sending a vile pm and as such I feel it's better for me to leave this forum.

I am sorry to see this type of behaviour,so please report it to the mod.I also have enjoyed your contributions as they give an important personal insight into the whole question and it should confirm to others that the situation was not black and white.

CDfm

kabakuyu wrote: »

I also have enjoyed your contributions as they give an important personal insight into the whole question and it should confirm to others that the situation was not black and white.

It was a very strange time.

dubhthach

For those who read the Sunday Business Post Tom McGurk has an article about this subject entitled: Desertion in a dark hour can never be justified

Unfortunatley it doesn't appear like you can get a free version online (not today anyways), if there was I would post a copy of it here.

CDfm

For all that's being said the core issues seem to be that the soldiers who deserted found themselves being dishonourably discharged and convicted in absentia loosing any right to military pensions etc.


The 4,983 deserters were dismissed under the Emergency Powers (No 362) Order 194.They were banned from public sector employment for 7 years.They were not punished otherwise.

There are some claims that the children of deserters were placed in industrial schools and the order was essentially used by employers as an employment blacklist.

It did allow them to return to the country, receive unemployment benefits etc and no other action was taken.


Sinn Fein supports the pardons campaign. The IRA in the 1940s supported a Nazi invasion of Northern Ireland.


Some Labour Party members support the campaign.

Here is the Dail Debate from the time.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1945/10/18/00027.asp

Manic Moran

11 page thread on this general issue over on 'Military' (Not the one linked to on Page 1)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056505940

Though the poll actually shows most respondants opining in favour of pardons, it is interesting to note that the posters who wear or wore Army Green are overwhelmingly against them and believe the punishments to be light at best.

NTM

CDfm

Manic Moran wrote: »

it is interesting to note that the posters who wear or wore Army Green are overwhelmingly against them and believe the punishments to be light at best.

NTM

That is the feeling that comes thru from the Dail Debates too.

It does say the punishment portion is a lot less than would be administered by courts martial and administered by the British to conscripted Irish in Britain who deserted.

The other thing that hit me was that the Army was set to shrink to pre-war levels and it might have been a method to positively discriminate towards men who had stayed in the service of the state and endured the hardships and lower pay.

A.Tomas

dubhthach wrote: »

For those who read the Sunday Business Post Tom McGurk has an article about this subject entitled: Desertion in a dark hour can never be justified

Unfortunatley it doesn't appear like you can get a free version online (not today anyways), if there was I would post a copy of it here.

That's a shame, I would have liked to have seen that.

It was indeed an hour of need for our freedom and democracy.

What is a bit annoying though, is that the campaigner said that they should be pardoned because of the "maturity" and "friendship" we have with Britain. That's all well and good. But,
people will have to understand, that it's not personal. They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

It undermines the Irish Defence Forces if they get pardoned.

jonniebgood1

A.Tomas wrote: »

...
people will have to understand, that it's not personal. They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

...

Please clarify where they tried to do this (underlined).

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Please clarify where they tried to do this (underlined).

Hasn't Gerald Morgan the Trinity Professor and campaign supporter said as much.

Though Ireland was officially neutral, Trinity College professor Gerald Morgan said that as many as 60 per cent of the population hoped the Germans would win the war.


http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-considers-pardon-for-irish-soldiers-persecuted-for-fighting-hitler-319035-Jan2012/

That clearly wasn't the situation.

And the story has been picked up internationally

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sinn-fein-to-back-pardons-for-deserters-who-fought-for-britain-in-world-war-ii/story-e6frg6so-1226236308833

A.Tomas

CDfm wrote: »

Hasn't Gerald Morgan the Trinity Professor and campaign supporter said as much.


That clearly wasn't the situation.

And the story has been picked up internationally

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sinn-fein-to-back-pardons-for-deserters-who-fought-for-britain-in-world-war-ii/story-e6frg6so-1226236308833

Cheers CDfm.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Hasn't Gerald Morgan the Trinity Professor and campaign supporter said as much.

Though Ireland was officially neutral, Trinity College professor Gerald Morgan said that as many as 60 per cent of the population hoped the Germans would win the war.
http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-con...19035-Jan2012/

THere is a big difference in the above and saying this

Originally Posted by A.Tomas
They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

For a start using 'they' to ascribe a view of one man (Morgan) to the group of people (the deserters) which A. Thomas was referring to is misleading. Secondly Morgan referred to 60% of the general population, not the deserters.

From there it is a big jump to say that if someone wanted the Germans to win the war in 1939/40 that they were 'Nazis'. If quoted text "They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis." is to be accepted then I think it needs more basis or clarification than that given. In the context which it was used I don't think that has been done.

Originally Posted by A.Tomas
They broke their oath to the defence of Ireland from Britain or Germany. They got off lightly, and now want to portray those who did their duty as Nazis.

No mention of Morgan.

CDfm

I have found the campaign website

http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/

I don't know if Professor Morgan's views are representative of the group.