Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order

neilled

Fuinseog wrote: »

I lived in Newbridge for a while a few years back and you would regularly see a gent sporting British WW2 medals and nobody ever said anything to him. You do not see this very often in Dublin, but then again we do not live in a very militaristic society

I recall this old gent as well. I think he had a wheelchair or zimmer and you'd see him around the whitewater at the weekends? Always meant to have a chat with him but never got around to it.

Fuinseog

ejmaztec wrote: »

Which royals, and who was Karl Edward?

My spelling of his name is not 100% but he had an English and German name.
the English royal family was largely German and had to change their name from Battenberg to Mountbatten around WW1. I cannot remember what they were before Windsor. even today you see the motto 'ich dien' .

Charles Edward or Karl Eduard was English but was forced by Victoria to take over the family's kingdom in Sachse Coburg Gotha. though he did not fight the Brits in WW1 he was labelled a traitor. It ruined his life and he was not invited to cousin Elisabeth's cornation in 1952.

essentially there were very close ties between the two countries and both world wars were something of brother fighting brother.

CDfm

I don't want to be too harsh as some of these guys were probably like Cathal O'Shannon who died recently and fought in the war as part of the British forces.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75072637

You also have Sean Deegan/Brother Colombanus in Mount Mellery and he talks of his motivations in this article including his joy of being trained on a Harley Davidson & "When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause,"

Irish servicemen 'airbrushed out of history,' says D-Day veteran




By Emma Blain

Sunday June 06 2004

AN IRISH survivor of the D-Day landings, now a Franciscan friar, spoke for one of the first times last week of his bitter disappointment at the indifference in his homeland to the sacrifices made by thousands of his countrymen in World War II. Brother Columbanus, now aged 79, was shocked at the negative reception he and his fellow servicemen received at the hands of their compatriots on his return.
He returned from France a year after the end of the war, where, as a skinny 19-year-old known as Sean Deegan, he had played his part in one of the greatest military invasions in history.
"The people back home didn't realise what it meant. To them, you were just a renegade who had gone off and was fighting for the Brits," he told me. "I was a soldier of fortune, not a political soldier. When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause," Deegan said, as he prepared to return to Normandy for this weekend's 60th anniversary commemorations.

But he also says this

Like many men, the young Sean had signed up because he "was going for the adventure and the money". After D-Day, he rode right through Europe: "When we broke through, that's when I had a ball".
But soon he and his comrades were to realise the true horror of war, when they encountered the infamous concentration camps in Belsen and Auschwitz.
He says: "That, to me, was my turning point in the war: that I'd been fighting an evil. Up until that point it had been a game."





http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-servicemen-airbrushed-out-of-history-says-dday-veteran-481016.html

Now I do understand that there was a bit of a conflict too, newly independent country, and all the rest of that, but I don't believe the articles or the radio show are portraying it correctly.

There are, of course, two traditions on this island and there are grey area's too.

Its a bit like a history of transition & while I may be a bit sceptical , it may not be as simple as all that.

My Dads father was in the War of Independence and his brother died in the Somme in WWI.

In other words, if there was some type of amnesty , what are the mitigating circumstances ?

Fuinseog

There is a different attitude towards war and armies in general in this country. this is one of many reasons why people do not care about this who fought in WW2.
we tend to be less militaristic that the the Brits. They wear their poppy and celebrate the military. after all, given that they are involved in a war every few years its more a part of their lives. even our military tend to be more like civilians.

some people here feel we lost out by not participating in WW2, but I for one am glad that I grew up having two grandfathers and that our cities were not destroyed by bombings. Would Dubliners really appreciate something like the Dublin and Monaghan bombings on a grand scale?

Fuinseog

CDfm wrote: »

I don't want to be too harsh as some of these guys were probably like Cathal O'Shannon who died recently and fought in the war as part of the British forces.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75072637

You also have Sean Deegan/Brother Colombanus in Mount Mellery and he talks of his motivations in this article including his joy of being trained on a Harley Davidson & "When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause,"





But he also says this


Now I do understand that there was a bit of a conflict too, newly independent country, and all the rest of that, but I don't believe the articles or the radio show are portraying it correctly.

There are, of course, two traditions on this island and there are grey area's too.

Its a bit like a history of transition & while I may be a bit sceptical , it may not be as simple as all that.

My Dads father was in the War of Independence and his brother died in the some in WWI.

In other words, if there was some type of amnesty , what are the mitigating circumstances ?

within that the last 20 years more interest has been shown to those who fought for our former colonial masters. you had similar situations in other countries. its still taboo in France for members of Charlemagne to display their German war decorations. they said they joined up to fight communism. others say they served the Nazis and were traitors although Europe spent the proceeding 40 years fighting communism.

what contribution did Irishmen in the British army make to Ireland, their home country? European conflicts has nothing to do with us.
Irishmen also fought for the glory of France and against communism in Indochina. let their voice be heard.

ejmaztec

Fuinseog wrote: »

My spelling of his name is not 100% but he had an English and German name.
the English royal family was largely German and had to change their name from Battenberg to Mountbatten around WW1. I cannot remember what they were before Windsor. even today you see the motto 'ich dien' .
Charles Edward or Karl Eduard was English but was forced by Victoria to take over the family's kingdom in Sachse Coburg Gotha. though he did not fight the Brits in WW1 he was labelled a traitor. It ruined his life and he was not invited to cousin Elisabeth's cornation in 1952.
essentially there were very close ties between the two countries and both world wars were something of brother fighting brother.

There were close ties between the royal family and their German relatives, but the same couldn't be said for the rest of the British population. At that time, the general population would have been in no doubt that they were British, with the trappings of the Empire all around them. I think the name change took place because the hierarchy didn't want the public to be reminded of the royal family's German connection. During the time leading up to the Russian Revolution, the UK authorities were becoming increasingly aware of possible threats to the status-quo, from anarchists and other groups intent on changing the existing systems.

Fuinseog wrote: »

within that the last 20 years more interest has been shown to those who fought for our former colonial masters. you had similar situations in other countries. its still taboo in France for members of Charlemagne to display their German war decorations. they said they joined up to fight communism. others say they served the Nazis and were traitors although Europe spent the proceeding 40 years fighting communism.
what contribution did Irishmen in the British army make to Ireland, their home country? European conflicts has nothing to do with us.
Irishmen also fought for the glory of France and against communism in Indochina. let their voice be heard.

Ireland being part of Europe, I don't know how anyone can say that European conflicts have nothing to do with us. Irish people have been fighting in European wars for centuries, and not just on the side of the British.
Ireland suffered the consequences of WW2 even though it was neutral. Certainly Ireland didn't get the crap bombed out of it, but there were huge problems with importing goods and rationing. There was an “Emergency” after all.
Had the allies lost, Ireland would have been swallowed up by the Third Reich, and no Irish person would have had the choice to opt out on the grounds that it was nothing to do with them.

CDfm

I can't see any real evidence of pro German behavior with the exception of the IRA campaign.

Interesting that you mention France, Alsace-Lorraine was a disputed territory which now part of France. It was annexed by Germany in 1871 & France in 1918 so you may have had people who were from there being "conflicted" over their loyalties.

Post independence , Ireland still had a King and Ireland's independence constitutionally "evolved" .

The Treaty Ports were occupied until 1938 , a strategic interest by Britain following WWI's submarine warfare experience.

Liverpool , Manchester, Kilburn, Cricklewood had large Irish populations too. So we had connections and a steady stream of emigration.

That's not taking into account people who were ambivalent to the new state or felt loyal to Britain.

So what do we know of those type of factors ???

A.Tomas

CDfm wrote: »

I don't want to be too harsh as some of these guys were probably like Cathal O'Shannon who died recently and fought in the war as part of the British forces.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75072637

You also have Sean Deegan/Brother Colombanus in Mount Mellery and he talks of his motivations in this article including his joy of being trained on a Harley Davidson & "When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause,"





But he also says this


Now I do understand that there was a bit of a conflict too, newly independent country, and all the rest of that, but I don't believe the articles or the radio show are portraying it correctly.

There are, of course, two traditions on this island and there are grey area's too.

Its a bit like a history of transition & while I may be a bit sceptical , it may not be as simple as all that.

My Dads father was in the War of Independence and his brother died in the Somme in WWI.

In other words, if there was some type of amnesty , what are the mitigating circumstances ?

I believe that Cathal O'Shannon served in Burma with the RAF and stayed their after the war. So Nazis?


I wonder though, are the Irish who fought against Franco tended to be believers in Republicanism/democracy. And they were no fans of British militarism/imperialism.

Are they airbrushed, etc.? I don't think these people should take the lack of military parades personally.


The Friar says that people just saw him as someone who went away for adventure. Well ... he did! It was worthwhile of course.


Irishmen who died and fought in foreign armies are commemorated every year. I wish these campaigners would stop telling lies.

A.Tomas

CDfm wrote: »

I can't see any real evidence of pro German behavior with the exception of the IRA campaign.

Interesting that you mention France, Alsace-Lorraine was a disputed territory which now part of France. It was annexed by Germany in 1871 & France in 1918 so you may have had people who were from there being "conflicted" over their loyalties.

Post independence , Ireland still had a King and Ireland's independence constitutionally "evolved" .

The Treaty Ports were occupied until 1938 , a strategic interest by Britain following WWI's submarine warfare experience.

Liverpool , Manchester, Kilburn, Cricklewood had large Irish populations too. So we had connections and a steady stream of emigration.

That's not taking into account people who were ambivalent to the new state or felt loyal to Britain.

So what do we know of those type of factors ???

Also, the IRA wanted help from the Soviets. (They went there first I believe!)



"in his efforts to secure weapons and/or finance for the IRA, Russell was to travel abroad five times. Once to the Soviet Union, three times to the United States and once to Germany. "

from NGA.ie, also

"In his dealings with the Germans, Russell sought the release of Frank Ryan from Burgos Prison in Spain. Ryan was then the most prominent IRA man still in captivity following his leading role in the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War. Ryan was released and arrived in Berlin on August 4th 1940. He was in poor health having received repeated severe beatings in Burgos for refusing to give the Fascist salute."

Belfast

What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

ejmaztec

Belfast wrote: »

What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

They would have probably kept a low profile.

Dyr

Belfast wrote: »

What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

I doubt the low profile would have happened. They would have been hugely useful to the british army during an invasion, traitors and collaborators always are. The Germans used such people with some great success in their occupation of europe.

CDfm

It is interesting that the words "low profile" are being used here.

Whenever 1916 is celebrated it is as if it is hi-jacked by extremists and not official state celebrations.

I do not know if there is an equivalent to the British Legion for Irish Soldiers.

Is there a statue of DeValera or WT Cosgrave in any park. There is one of Sean Russell.

The "Emergency" was our sovereignty test as a nation too.

Given that our bunch is relatively low key , it is sort of a cultural difference that the deserters are drawing attention to themselves.

Fuinseog

Belfast wrote: »

What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

shot the Irish 'traitors' who resisted them.

Fuinseog

CDfm wrote: »

It is interesting that the words "low profile" are being used here.

Whenever 1916 is celebrated it is as if it is hi-jacked by extremists and not official state celebrations.

I do not know if there is an equivalent to the British Legion for Irish Soldiers.

Is there a statue of DeValera or WT Cosgrave in any park. There is one of Sean Russell.

The "Emergency" was our sovereignty test as a nation too.

Given that our bunch is relatively low key , it is sort of a cultural difference that the deserters are drawing attention to themselves.

I believe there is a branch of the British legion in this country. they hold their November services in protestant churches.

Fuinseog

A.Tomas wrote: »

Also, the IRA wanted help from the Soviets. (They went there first I believe!)



"in his efforts to secure weapons and/or finance for the IRA, Russell was to travel abroad five times. Once to the Soviet Union, three times to the United States and once to Germany. "

from NGA.ie, also

"In his dealings with the Germans, Russell sought the release of Frank Ryan from Burgos Prison in Spain. Ryan was then the most prominent IRA man still in captivity following his leading role in the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War. Ryan was released and arrived in Berlin on August 4th 1940. He was in poor health having received repeated severe beatings in Burgos for refusing to give the Fascist salute."

O Shannon helped liberate Burma from the Japs so that it could be British again and its people enslaved again. hardly a noble cause to pursue.

neilled

CDfm wrote: »

It is interesting that the words "low profile" are being used here.

Whenever 1916 is celebrated it is as if it is hi-jacked by extremists and not official state celebrations.

I do not know if there is an equivalent to the British Legion for Irish Soldiers.

There are three veterans organisations operating on Island. ONE, the national organisation of ex servicemen (and women) is open to those who served in the Defence Forces in a full or part time capacity, then you have IUNVA, the Irish United Nations Veterans Association obviously UN service is a requisite and finally you have the Royal British Legion who have a branch here and a full time office. These organisations work together for various commemorative events - such as the national day of commemoration in july, armistice day events in november including the german commemoration at the military cemetery, glencree.

jonniebgood1

Fuinseog wrote: »

O Shannon helped liberate Burma from the Japs so that it could be British again and its people enslaved again. hardly a noble cause to pursue.

They were hardly basking in their freedom under Japanese rule. Reference Kalagong for example.

Fratton Fred

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

They were hardly basking in their freedom under Japanese rule. Reference Kalagong for example.

But since the British left is has become a bastion of freedom and democracy.......hasn't it?

ejmaztec

Fuinseog wrote: »

My spelling of his name is not 100% but he had an English and German name.
the English royal family was largely German and had to change their name from Battenberg to Mountbatten around WW1. I cannot remember what they were before Windsor. even today you see the motto 'ich dien' .

I missed this bit earlier.

Ich Dien appeared as a motto centuries before there were any Germans in the royal family, and was "nicked" after a battle. The Black Prince obviously took a fancy to it, so decided to use it himself.

Ich dien German, meaning ‘I serve’; the motto of the Prince of Wales, adopted with the crest of ostrich feathers after the battle of Crécy (1346), from John of Luxembourg, King of Bohemia, who was killed in the battle.

The motto is spelt ich diene on the tomb of the Black Prince, Edward Prince of Wales, at the time of his burial at Canterbury in 1376.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O214-Ichdien.html

Fuinseog

perhaps another reason why these servicemen are not popular in Ireland is our recent past. given the atrocity of Bloody Sunday in 1972 any Irish man who served in the paras and were to proudly wear the beret in public would be shunned.
there also seems to be a lack of IRA veteran associations in Britain.
The IRA murdered civilians, the RAF murdered civilians in their bombing of German cities. C'est la guerre.

Fuinseog

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

They were hardly basking in their freedom under Japanese rule. Reference Kalagong for example.

no indeed. neither were they under British rule. they would probably prefer a home grown tyrant to a foreign one.

ejmaztec

Fuinseog wrote: »

no indeed. neither were they under British rule. they would probably prefer a home grown tyrant to a foreign one.

The British ran these far-flung countries as businesses, and it wouldn't have been cost-effective to butcher the work-force on a whim, which is what the Japanese were doing during their occupation.

Fuinseog

ejmaztec wrote: »

The British ran these far-flung countries as businesses, and it wouldn't have been cost-effective to butcher the work-force on a whim, which is what the Japanese were doing during their occupation.

thez exploited these countries for they all they were worth. the natives were treated as slaves. while the Brits did not butcher the natives their treatment of them as second class citizens is not praiseworthy.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

The British ran these far-flung countries as businesses, and it wouldn't have been cost-effective to butcher the work-force on a whim, which is what the Japanese were doing during their occupation.

As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back

After what's happened in recent years, I've a sneaky feeling that even if the money stayed in Ireland, the politicians here would have pissed it away.:(

CDfm

neilled wrote: »

There are three veterans organisations operating on Island. ONE, the national organisation of ex servicemen (and women) is open to those who served in the Defence Forces in a full or part time capacity, then you have IUNVA, the Irish United Nations Veterans Association obviously UN service is a requisite and finally you have the Royal British Legion who have a branch here and a full time office. These organisations work together for various commemorative events - such as the national day of commemoration in july, armistice day events in november including the german commemoration at the military cemetery, glencree.

Doesn't it seem odd that this is being played out in public without involving Irish Veterans organisations.

Does anyone know what their views are ?

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back

Volume II of "A New History of Ireland" from Oxford talks bout this during the 13th/14th century detailing how the "Irish Roll" was used to among other things finance the 100 year war. I could be wrong on this but I believe that it's in last quarter of 19th century that Ireland ceases to be a net contributor to "Imperial treasury". No doubt it ties in also with the Land Acts and tenant purchases as well perhaps?

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back

dubhthach wrote: »

Volume II of "A New History of Ireland" from Oxford talks bout this during the 13th/14th century detailing how the "Irish Roll" was used to among other things finance the 100 year war. I could be wrong on this but I believe that it's in last quarter of 19th century that Ireland ceases to be a net contributor to "Imperial treasury". No doubt it ties in also with the Land Acts and tenant purchases as well perhaps?

I think we discussed this here Post 65

CDfm

I didn't want to sidetrack the thread.

I do wonder how the Irish Veteran's Organisation's and serving soldiers in Ireland see it.

Normally, the Military handle their own justice but the scale of the desertions was vast. Pre war Irelands army was circa 10,000 and on completion 40,000.

What is the military history ????

By not declaring war on Germany , we did not have to bear the cost.I mean, Britain didn't hand over the Punjab and or any goldmines from South Africa to us on independence to us. Did India for example make a contribution to the cost and how about the colonies.