The Ian Madigan Thread

almighty1

wixfjord wrote: »

and also that his lack of kicking is a non issue

I agree with most of your points generally wix but his lack of kicking is an issue. A non kicking 10 means something or somebody has to be accomodated elsewhere in the team to counteract this problem.

We're ok at the moment as Isa starts most games and McFadden too. However if the new NIQ rules affect Isa and McFadden picks up an injury then he is going to have to step up to the plate.

IMHO if Madigan is on the field then he should be place kicking. He should be exposed to all elements of the 10 role.

wixfjord

almighty1 wrote: »

I agree with most of your points generally wix but his lack of kicking is an issue. A non kicking 10 means something or somebody has to be accomodated elsewhere in the team to counteract this problem.

We're ok at the moment as Isa starts most games and McFadden too. However if the new NIQ rules affect Isa and McFadden picks up an injury then he is going to have to step up to the plate.

IMHO if Madigan is on the field then he should be place kicking. He should be exposed to all elements of the 10 role.

No but I wasn't referring to him not being able to kick, I meant that at this stage in his development, it's not a big thing that he doesn't kick.

Amazotheamazing

Not read the full thread, but Murray is a very good kicker too, or used to be. A Murray/Madigan partnership with Murray kicking is the answer.

What club is Madigan going to move to to ensure he get's HEC starts? Think he'd suit the Top14. Wouldn't go well in the AP, most likely.

JRant

Why not give the young lad some experience of the highest level of rugby. He's starting to get some game time in the HEC and is flourishing in the Rabo. There are some issues around him regarding the kicking duties but he seems to have really matured this year and I'm sure if he was needed to kick he could.
But this is Ireland under Unkle Deccie so it's never ever going to happen, the likes of Madigan and some of the other young stars coming through need to be blooded at the highest level to see if they can cut it. I mean Murray was parachuted into the RWC team and is now first-choice SH despite having two superior players behind him. WE know what ROG can do so give youth a chance I say.

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not read the full thread, but Murray is a very good kicker too, or used to be. A Murray/Madigan partnership with Murray kicking is the answer.

What club is Madigan going to move to to ensure he get's HEC starts? Think he'd suit the Top14. Wouldn't go well in the AP, most likely.

There's nothing wrong with his kicking! (at least not that we know yet)
For jaysus sake where does this come from?!

siltirocker

What I think is astonishing is all this talk about his kicking. Just because he has the Irish no. 1 kicker, the best Irish place kicker & the former Auckland kicker ahead of him doesn't mean he's actually bad.

Madigan is a great goal kicker, a bit like Halfpenny or Keatley in that he can even put it over comfortably from his own half.

Amazotheamazing

siltirocker wrote: »

What I think is astonishing is all this talk about his kicking. Just because he has the Irish no. 1 kicker, the best Irish place kicker & the former Auckland kicker ahead of him doesn't mean he's actually bad.

Madigan is a great goal kicker, a bit like Halfpenny or Keatley in that he can even put it over comfortably from his own half.

I hope you aren't suggesting Keatley is also a great kicker? Keatley's kicking is way too mixed.

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with his kicking! (at least not that we know yet)
For jaysus sake where does this come from?!

The only time I remember seeing Madigan kicking was for the Irish u20's (where he was used more at fullback, iirc?) He has decent range but he was inconsistent. He'd miss easy ones and get long distance ones.

Murray and McKinley were used as kickers ahead of him at that level.

jacothelad

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not read the full thread, but Murray is a very good kicker too, or used to be. A Murray/Madigan partnership with Murray kicking is the answer.

What club is Madigan going to move to to ensure he get's HEC starts? Think he'd suit the Top14. Wouldn't go well in the AP, most likely.

Ulster.

tolosenc

OK, people are saying he's not ready to play for Ireland yet, and I agree. But if ROG or Sexton were to get injured during the 6N, would you give the bench spot to iHumph? Paddy Wallace? Keatley? Might as well be Madigan in that case.

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

OK, people are saying he's not ready to play for Ireland yet, and I agree. But if ROG or Sexton were to get injured during the 6N, would you give the bench spot to iHumph? Paddy Wallace? Keatley? Might as well be Madigan in that case.

No, all the others kick when they're on the field. To Have Madigan on the field and you're kicker goes down injured you then need to make 2 subs to replace one injured player.

almighty1

phog wrote: »

No, all the others kick when they're on the field. To Have Madigan on the field and you're kicker goes down injured you then need to make 2 subs to replace one injured player.

I agree. People are saying that he can kick. Well then why isnt he kicking for Leinster? We shouldnt and wouldnt get anywhere near the international 10 spot unless he shows what he can do with the boot.

wixfjord

almighty1 wrote: »

phog wrote: »

No, all the others kick when they're on the field. To Have Madigan on the field and you're kicker goes down injured you then need to make 2 subs to replace one injured player.

I agree. People are saying that he can kick. Well then why isnt he kicking for Leinster? We shouldnt and wouldnt get anywhere near the international 10 spot unless he shows what he can do with the boot.

Jesus Christ it goes round in circles! That question has been answered at least 20 times.

almighty1

wixfjord wrote: »

almighty1 wrote: »

phog wrote: »

No, all the others kick when they're on the field. To Have Madigan on the field and you're kicker goes down injured you then need to make 2 subs to replace one injured player.

I agree. People are saying that he can kick. Well then why isnt he kicking for Leinster? We shouldnt and wouldnt get anywhere near the international 10 spot unless he shows what he can do with the boot.

Jesus Christ it goes round in circles! That question has been answered at least 20 times.

Easy horse. Its a rhetorical question. Just nullifying the absurd suggestions that he should be considered for the national team.

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

Jesus Christ it goes round in circles! That question has been answered at least 20 times.

We know but some posters keep asking why cant he be used as a reserve for the 6Ns in place of one of ROG or Sexton, either one being dropped or injured.

I really dont see that as a runner.

twinytwo

Takeabath wrote: »

Seeing as talk of madigan is derailing so many topics I thought that he deserves his own thread. Top try scorer in the Rabo Direct after limited game time and only 22 years old. Probably has the best pass and eye for a gap of any outhalf in Ireland. I believe he should be second choice for Ireland. What does everyone think?

Rather than talk about madigan.. you really just want to bash rog. Remember what i said about thinking before you post.

As other posters have already stated, he needs to get some HC experience before he goes anywhere near the national team.

wixfjord

phog wrote: »

We know but some posters keep asking why cant he be used as a reserve for the 6Ns in place of one of ROG or Sexton, either one being dropped or injured.

I really dont see that as a runner.

I agree.

shuffol

The thing about Madigans try scoring record is that all his tries are generally against poor opposition and very similiar, easier to score now that opposition dont know him but what about when his profile rises, he's unlikely to make similiar breaks in test rugby. Talk of him benching ahead of ROG is crazy especially when you consider O'Garas unique ability to perform miracles in the last minutes of games. I dont think theres a team in world rugby that wouldnt like to have a guy like that on the bench. However I think we've reached a point where we have to stick with Sexton, not sure how long O'Gara will hang around for if he knows his chances of starting rest with Sexton getting injured.

profitius

shuffol wrote: »

The thing about Madigans try scoring record is that all his tries are generally against poor opposition and very similiar, easier to score now that opposition dont know him but what about when his profile rises, he's unlikely to make similiar breaks in test rugby. Talk of him benching ahead of ROG is crazy especially when you consider O'Garas unique ability to perform miracles in the last minutes of games. I dont think theres a team in world rugby that wouldnt like to have a guy like that on the bench. However I think we've reached a point where we have to stick with Sexton, not sure how long O'Gara will hang around for if he knows his chances of starting rest with Sexton getting injured.

If teams watch Madigan it'll create more space for other players. The thing about him is he has such a good pass, it puts teams under more pressure to close down the Leinster attackers outside Madigan. So theres more space for him then and he only needs a gap.

ROG doesn't offer a running threat so theres less space for the backs. Wales shut ROG down in the world cup by shuting down the space outside him and forcing him to carry the ball and then nail him in the tackle.

wixfjord

Very interesting piece about Madigan in the Times today, particularly the bolded in the context of this thread.
I seriously hope he isn't dropped for Berquist.
When is he back?

LEINSTER NEWS: A MICHAEL Jordan quote springs to mind when writing about Ian Madigan: “I’ve missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I’ve lost almost 300 games. Twenty six times, I’ve been trusted to take the game-winning shot and missed. I’ve failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.”

Despite being only 22, Madigan has been a long time coming to his current visible status within the Leinster set-up. Due to the presence of Jonathan Sexton and imminent return of Matt Berquist from a cracked kneecap (the Kiwi knows more than most about understudying for the best in the business) this may be the last we hear about him for a while.

Yet, when Madigan’s opportunity arose in recent months we witnessed a skill-set that neither Sexton nor Ronan O’Gara can claim to possess in their already cluttered lockers.

“I’d like to think I have a different dimension to my game. I’m more of a running outhalf. There’s certainly parts of their game that are better than mine though. It’s about improving in those aspects to get up to their standards, and then hopefully the running part of my game will really stand out,” said Madigan.

Column inches on him first appeared in this newspaper as far back as 2004. His schools’ cup “career” garnered medals at both junior and senior; he was a rarity for Blackrock College in that he made the senior cup team (SCT)three years running. A talented 15-year-old playmaker among a group of older and future professionals that included Luke Fitzgerald, Niall Morris (Leicester), Vasily Artemiev (Northampton) and Dave Moore (Connacht).

In 2007, as a sixth year, he was versatile enough to play fullback to accommodate another gifted outhalf, Darragh Fitzpatrick, in what turned out to be a fairly calamitous campaign. Jarringly beaten by Kilkenny College in a quarter-final replay, it was Madigan who missed a last-gasp penalty for victory.

A similar experience was repeated for Ireland Under-20s and again at club level in the All-Ireland League. Madigan has failed over and over and over again but he keeps coming back.

“It would have been intimidating when I was starting off, but I certainly feel comfortable playing in the position now. Getting my hands on the ball as much as possible is what I want in matches, so I don’t feel intimidated by it anymore.”

His statistics of late support such comments. Six tries in 13 outings along with a single conversion, drop goal and penalty – he would happily shoulder the added responsibility of place-kicking. If only Joe Schmidt would let him.

“I’ve been working on my place-kicking a lot and, to be honest, I would like to be taking the place-kicks. Joe has the overriding call on it though and so far he’s had Johnny, Isa and Ferg kicking. In fairness to the lads, their percentages are over 80 per cent so I can’t be complaining about that.

“I’m sure I’ll get a chance at some stage, but for now I’m happy to bide my time until it comes.”

Madigan admits his game management needs fine-tuning, but witness the cut-out passes, off either hand, that created tries in the St Stephen’s Day dismissal of Ulster and it is hardly surprising he mentions Carlos Spencer as an inspiration.

“In the past I used to love watching Carlos. I know he’s made some mistakes, but himself and Stephen Larkham were the two I loved to watch. I’d admire the likes of Ronan O’Gara too and how he can control a game.”

There are similarities to Emmet Farrell, another rare breed who played on three Blackrock SCTs (1993-95) before progressing into the professional ranks. Injury stalled Farrell’s career but an immediate switch into coaching saw him mentor Madigan at Blackrock club. Farrell is currently Leinster’s video analyst.

It hasn’t just been rugby that guided this sporting life. An All-Ireland football féile success with Kilmacud Crokes “back in the day” (2003) saw him play alongside current Dublin fullback Rory O’Carroll. But, as more established men return this week, you may not hear about him for a while although keep an eye on the Irish Wolfhounds team to face the England Saxons on January 28th.

“If an Ireland ‘A’ call comes then well and good, but if it doesn’t I won’t be too cut up about it. I’ll just keep working away here on my game.” That’s probably why he will succeed.

irishbucsfan

Making other players place kick is the right thing to do at the moment. I can understand it's frustrating for him, at least he has Sexton beside him to keep him cool after what Sexton went through himself not so long ago.

smurphy29

An interesting, if slightly befuddled thread.

A few points:
1. Madigan CAN place kick but he's just down the pecking order with Leinster, who have a surfeit of high quality kickers. That said, it IS important for his career that he climb this ladder. Being good in your back garden, junior level or even B&I Cup isn't the same as knocking over a 40m penalty to win a Pro12 or HEC match, so he needs to add this to his profile. Also, his kicking out of hand is wobbly, which doesn't augur particularly well for his place kicking. Essentially, the proof is in the pudding - we need to see him do it. Anyone suggesting Conor Murray could kick instead is faced with the same problem - he's never place kicked at senior level.

2. Anyone who thinks he should dislodge ROG in the Irish matchday 22 has lost their noodle. I'm a huge fan of Madigan and he will no doubt go on to represent Ireland, but it's too early for him. There are still msasive questions over his game management, which needs plenty of work. Besides, anyone who has watched ROG lately will know he's playing brilliantly - himself and POC are hauling an average, depleted Munster side through the HEC on their considerable shoulders.

3. Madigan should start for the Wolfhounds. He's better than Keatley, and iHumph is pushing 30, and at this stage is never going to make test level. This is the perfect opportunity to take a look at him in green.

4. Gav Cummiskey's piece is odd. I can't see Berquist strolling straight past him into the 23 after Madigan's performances. And nor has Madigan been underground for ages - this is only his second year out of the academy.

Fireball07

smurphy29 wrote: »

An interesting, if slightly befuddled thread.

A few points:
1. Madigan CAN place kick but he's just down the pecking order with Leinster, who have a surfeit of high quality kickers. That said, it IS important for his career that he climb this ladder. Being good in your back garden, junior level or even B&I Cup isn't the same as knocking over a 40m penalty to win a Pro12 or HEC match, so he needs to add this to his profile. Also, his kicking out of hand is wobbly, which doesn't augur particularly well for his place kicking. Essentially, the proof is in the pudding - we need to see him do it. Anyone suggesting Conor Murray could kick instead is faced with the same problem - he's never place kicked at senior level.

2. Anyone who thinks he should dislodge ROG in the Irish matchday 22 has lost their noodle. I'm a huge fan of Madigan and he will no doubt go on to represent Ireland, but it's too early for him. There are still msasive questions over his game management, which needs plenty of work. Besides, anyone who has watched ROG lately will know he's playing brilliantly - himself and POC are hauling an average, depleted Munster side through the HEC on their considerable shoulders.

3. Madigan should start for the Wolfhounds. He's better than Keatley, and iHumph is pushing 30, and at this stage is never going to make test level. This is the perfect opportunity to take a look at him in green.

4. Gav Cummiskey's piece is odd. I can't see Berquist strolling straight past him into the 23 after Madigan's performances. And nor has Madigan been underground for ages - this is only his second year out of the academy.

This is a good post.

1. I agree with this, his time will come. As long as he keeps practicing, with those players beside him, he'll only improve. And I hope that Murray is practicing kicking too, it's always nice to have another option.

2. This is also true, ROG is a better player than Madigan who is still only young. If it comes to a tight game and we need a controlling hand or someone to pull a drop goal out of the bag, I know who I'd pick. Even in last year's 6N, ROG came on to win the game against Italy. Madigan will come into the team in his own natural time, no need to rush him.

3. I agree here too, though I'd like Keatley to start at least one game aswell, just to see.

4. And that is ridicolous, Berquist will not get ahead of Madigan.

smurphy29

Fireball07 wrote: »

3. I agree here too, though I'd like Keatley to start at least one game aswell, just to see.

I think there's only one Saxons game, against England.

Fireball07

smurphy29 wrote: »

I think there's only one Saxons game, against England.

Oh well...

Seph503

Who'd have thought this time last year that instead of ROG Vs Sexton we'd have ROG Vs Madigan :pac:

siltirocker

Seph503 wrote: »

Who'd have thought this time last year that instead of ROG Vs Sexton we'd have ROG Vs Madigan :pac:

I know. Madigan has been a revelation, but I think people putting him ahead of the greatest ERC player ever & Ireland's best OH of all time (argueably) who is currently in sh1t hot form. . . a bit much.

Mike McCarthy is currently playing the best 2nd row stuff in Ireland at the moment. . . but I won't demand that he start ahead of POC.

totallegend

siltirocker wrote: »

I know. Madigan has been a revelation, but I think people putting him ahead of the greatest ERC player ever & Ireland's best OH of all time (argueably) who is currently in sh1t hot form. . . a bit much.

I've gone back through this thread, only one person (original poster) has suggested that he be in the Six Nations 22, let's not overreact.

stephen_n

Takeabath wrote: »

Well I think madigan is ahead of O'gara on current form so O'gara would be third choice. Ogaras has been really poor and his tackling has gotten worse. Madigan and sexton far outperforming him

Have you watched ROG play this season? seems like a strange comment really considering Munsters position in HEC an ROG's part in that while Madigan has mostly only played against weaker teams in the RABO. Very odd comment indeed.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

I've gone back through this thread, only one person (original poster) has suggested that he be in the Six Nations 22, let's not overreact.

Maybe more, just a quick search threw this up, while not specifically mentioning the 6Ns, I'm in no doubt that's what the poster meant.

JRant wrote: »

Why not give the young lad some experience of the highest level of rugby. He's starting to get some game time in the HEC and is flourishing in the Rabo. There are some issues around him regarding the kicking duties but he seems to have really matured this year and I'm sure if he was needed to kick he could.
But this is Ireland under Unkle Deccie so it's never ever going to happen, the likes of Madigan and some of the other young stars coming through need to be blooded at the highest level to see if they can cut it. I mean Murray was parachuted into the RWC team and is now first-choice SH despite having two superior players behind him. WE know what ROG can do so give youth a chance I say.